Donald Trump says post abortive women deserve some form of punishment

[KWCrazy]

As far as I understood it, Trump wasn't really refereeing to instituting a retroactive punishment, but that illegal abortions should be punished when illegal.

That's true. The question was based on a hypothetical case in which abortions were made illegal and Trump was asked if he would enforce the law.
As usual, the media is lying and distorting the story.

 

[KWCrazy]

This is how I took his statements too. More to the point, I have heard multiple "pro-life" voices oppose him by explicitly saying that they would not punish a woman for obtaining an illegal abortion.

If eating a pizza were illegal I would expect the executive branch to enforce the law.
Why are some people so fundamentally dishonest they lie about everything; even a set-up question by a liberal media outlet?
Trump got the answer right the first time. The job of the president is to enforce the law. If the law says that women who have illegal abortions got to jail, then that's what needs to happen.

It's a moot point, because no congress is in any danger of making such a law.

 

[PsychoeDial]

This sounds so much cleaner and orderly than "choosing to end a human life."

People choose to ignore a human life every single day when they don't adopt the born who are without committed families. Living in foster care systems, and all that that entails. People choose to ignore human life when it is filthy, stinking, and desperate for a hand out or a hand up from living on the streets. People choose to support the taking of human life when they put American flag colored ribbon magnets on their cars that read: I SUPPORT OUR TROOPS.
They choose to support the ending of human life when they are aligned against a woman's right to privacy when she's pregnant and yet are pro-death penalty.

Humans are rarely clean and orderly when it comes to opining about how life should be lived when it is someone elses.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

There are some that would wish to go after the woman, and if you look to the spirit of the law? It would make sense, but they really didn't do that in the past when it was illegal. I doubt they would do it now either. They want the big dogs - the providers. Again those aren't always doctors, and they were not in the past either.

It's one thing to say that enforcement of laws against abortion should be directed mostly against the providers; that doesn't imply that it would not be possible, at least theoretically, for women who have abortions to be prosecuted as well. Anti-drug laws are enforced mostly against dealers and traffickers, but users can be arrested if they are caught using. It is less likely, but it is possible.

 

[MoonlessNight]

People choose to ignore a human life every single day when they don't adopt the born who are without committed families. Living in foster care systems, and all that that entails. People choose to ignore human life when it is filthy, stinking, and desperate for a hand out or a hand up from living on the streets. People choose to support the taking of human life when they put American flag colored ribbon magnets on their cars that read: I SUPPORT OUR TROOPS.
They choose to support the ending of human life when they are aligned against a woman's right to privacy when she's pregnant and yet are pro-death penalty.

Humans are rarely clean and orderly when it comes to opining about how life should be lived when it is someone elses.

That's a lot of deflection, but nowhere in there do you deny that it is the taking of a human life. You simply have made your peace with taking lives in this specific context.

 

[Rhamiel]

People choose to ignore a human life every single day when they don't adopt the born who are without committed families. Living in foster care systems, and all that that entails. People choose to ignore human life when it is filthy, stinking, and desperate for a hand out or a hand up from living on the streets. People choose to support the taking of human life when they put American flag colored ribbon magnets on their cars that read: I SUPPORT OUR TROOPS.
They choose to support the ending of human life when they are aligned against a woman's right to privacy when she's pregnant and yet are pro-death penalty.

Humans are rarely clean and orderly when it comes to opining about how life should be lived when it is someone elses.

wait, did you bring up the death penalty?

have a sense of proportion
that is like saying "well I know you got your left arm cut off, your feet crushed in a vice, and one eye gouged out, but I broke my little finger and that hurts a lot too!"

28 people were executed in the USA in all of 2015

since 1976 there have been 1431 people executed in the USA
the Iraq war has had 4,425 American casualties

more people are killed in the USA by abortion over a 3 day weekend then both of those numbers things combined
I mean a long war and 40 years of executions dwarfed in 3 days

we kill about 3,000 babies a day in abortions

for the record, I am against the Death Penalty as well
but to compare the deaths of a few dozen violent criminals a year to thousands of babies a day is ridiculous

here are where I got some of the numbers from
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executions-year
this link has graphic images, warning
http://www.abortionno.org/abortion-facts/

It's one thing to say that enforcement of laws against abortion should be directed mostly against the providers; that doesn't imply that it would not be possible, at least theoretically, for women who have abortions to be prosecuted as well. Anti-drug laws are enforced mostly against dealers and traffickers, but users can be arrested if they are caught using. It is less likely, but it is possible.

I think one thing we could do is wait 20 years after abortion becomes illegal to before the mothers would be charged
allow time to go for it to really sink in that this is a crime, allow time for the culture to adapt

 

[PsychoeDial]

wait, did you bring up the death penalty?

have a sense of proportion
that is like saying "well I know you got your left arm cut off, your feet crushed in a vice, and one eye gouged out, but I broke my little finger and that hurts a lot too!"

Your analogy is off.
Ardent pro-life people claim that abortion is a death penalty for an unborn.
And yet, their hypocrisy arises when they later profess support for capital punishment. That isn't indicative of a consistent concern for the preservation of life. Rather, it is indicative of a prejudice against a woman's life and her right to her personal sovereignty and privacy in matters of her reproductive system.
Her womb is no one elses business. And when a certain segment of society professes that it is, they're wrong.
Their focus is on forcing her to have a baby against her will. Their hypocrisy arises when they argue that once that baby is born and grows into an adult and commits a capital crime they're OK with that grown baby being killed by the same state who's laws they condemned earlier when those laws permitted his/her mother to abort that former fetus.

A person can't say they're only partially proactive in preserving a certain kind of life and then stand proud that their position is one of pro-life.

We're all for life....until it is a alive and outside the woman's womb.

 

[PsychoeDial]

That's a lot of deflection, but nowhere in there do you deny that it is the taking of a human life. You simply have made your peace with taking lives in this specific context.

Your bias precludes your reading my remarks fairly.

 

[Rhamiel]

Your analogy is off.
Ardent pro-life people claim that abortion is a death penalty for an unborn.
And yet, their hypocrisy arises when they later profess support for capital punishment. That isn't indicative of a consistent concern for the preservation of life. Rather, it is indicative of a prejudice against a woman's life and her right to her personal sovereignty and privacy in matters of her reproductive system.
Her womb is no one elses business. And when a certain segment of society professes that it is, they're wrong.
Their focus is on forcing her to have a baby against her will. Their hypocrisy arises when they argue that once that baby is born and grows into an adult and commits a capital crime they're OK with that grown baby being killed by the same state who's laws they condemned earlier when those laws permitted his/her mother to abort that former fetus.

A person can't say they're only partially proactive in preserving a certain kind of life and then stand proud that their position is one of pro-life.

We're all for life....until it is a alive and outside the woman's womb.

never heard abortion described as "capital punishment for an unborn"
for one the death penalty is a punishment we give to people guilty of serious crimes
and unborn babies are innocent on any crime
I have heard abortion called murder, because it is the taking of innocent life

personal sovereignty is a right, but it is not an absolute right

I pointed out that it the death penalty has killed 1,400 in 40 years, abortion has killed about 50 million in 43 years
so comping the two to each other is just silly

also if you are so pro-life, then work to get rid of the death penalty, not every state has the death penalty
or petition the governor of that state to show leniency
the death penalty is not seen as some fake "right" so it is easier to work against it
but to put it on par with abortion is like comparing a school shooting to the Holocaust
yes both are tragic losses of life
but the scale is so off it just seems sick to compare the two

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Her womb is no one elses business.

Says who? It's where the next generation of citizens is produced. If that's not the business of the state, it's hard to imagine what would be. A sane country doesn't permit its own future to be destroyed like that.

Their hypocrisy arises when they argue that once that baby is born and grows into an adult and commits a capital crime they're OK with that grown baby being killed by the same state who's laws they condemned earlier when those laws permitted his/her mother to abort that former fetus.

Judicially innocent life vs. judicially guilty life. Make sense enough to me.

 

[MoonlessNight]

Your bias precludes your reading my remarks fairly.

In that post did you either try to claim that abortion does not take a human life, or state that you condemn abortion because it is the taking of a life? I don't see anywhere in the post where you did anything close to that, but it could be that my bias is blinding me to your statements to that effect.

But if you did not post either of those things then you seem to be saying that you think that abortion takes a life and, since you do not condemn abortion, that you have made peace with that.

 

[Cos-play]

It's one thing to say that enforcement of laws against abortion should be directed mostly against the providers; that doesn't imply that it would not be possible, at least theoretically, for women who have abortions to be prosecuted as well. Anti-drug laws are enforced mostly against dealers and traffickers, but users can be arrested if they are caught using. It is less likely, but it is possible.

The problem with Trumps comment, from the conservative point of view is not the it's outrageous, it's that it basically represents the true stand of the GOP.

There are, right now, at this moment, women in several states either in jail or facing multiple year sentences from causing miscarriages or for activities that may have damaged their fetuses during pregnancy.

It's not the women MIGHT face prison for having an abortion, it's that they already are.

It's just politically incorrect for the GOP to say it.

 

[PsychoeDial]

Says who?

Says anyone who expects their own privacy below the belt and elsewhere to be their own.

It's where the next generation of citizens is produced. If that's not the business of the state, it's hard to imagine what would be. A sane country doesn't permit its own future to be destroyed like that.

Women sought solutions to unwanted pregnancies from the beginning of civilization. The state has no place in a woman's womb just as they have no place in a mans testicles.

 

[Albion]

The problem with Trumps comment, from the conservative point of view is not the it's outrageous, it's that it basically represents the true stand of the GOP.

That's the popular Democrat myth.

And frankly, I appreciate such propaganda. As propaganda. You can't be accused of misrepresenting the facts when you simply say that X is the other guy's secret thought--in the speaker's opinion, of course--his "real" stand (as opposed to the one he's voiced), or something else like that

 

[Albion]

Women sought solutions to unwanted pregnancies from the beginning of civilization. The state has no place in a woman's womb just as they have no place in a mans testicles.

If there were another human being inside mine, I'd think differently about the matter.

 

[Armoured]

This election is a disaster.

Well, when you're right, you're right.

 

[Armoured]

If there were another human being inside mine, I'd think differently about the matter.

Well, when there is, maybe you have more right to an opinion.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

The state has no place in a woman's womb just as they have no place in a mans testicles.

Still waiting on a rational argument as to why they don't have a place in both.

 

[Cos-play]

That's the popular Democrat myth.

And frankly, I appreciate such propaganda. As propaganda. You can't be accused of misrepresenting the facts when you simply say that X is the other guy's secret thought--in the speaker's opinion, of course--his "real" stand (as opposed to the one he's voiced), or something else like that

Don't give me your right wing politically correct wangle-dangle :

I cite reporting on the decriminalization of pregnant women caused by right wing policies:

(All emphasis below mine)

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jun/24/america-pregnant-women-murder-charges

Gibbs became pregnant aged 15, but lost the baby in December 2006 in a stillbirth when she was 36 weeks into the pregnancy. When prosecutors discovered that she had a cocaine habit – though there is no evidence that drug abuse had anything to do with the baby's death – they charged her with the "depraved-heart murder" of her child, which carries a mandatory life sentence.

Gibbs is the first woman in Mississippi to be charged with murder relating to the loss of her unborn baby.

https://news.vice.com/article/india...-to-prison-for-20-years-for-killing-her-fetus

Later that night, Patel arrived at the local hospital with a severed umbilical cord and placenta still stuffed in her womb. Prosecutors charged her with felony neglect and feticide — an act that causes the death of a fetus — and a jury convicted her in February. This week, nearly 20 months after the incident, the 33-year-old Patel was sentenced to 30 years prison with 10 suspended for what she still maintains was a miscarriage.

Patel is first woman in America to be charged, convicted, and sentenced for attempting to kill an unborn fetus. To this day, experts have not been able to determine how many weeks pregnant she was at the time of the incident. Some doctors have said the fetus was only 23 or 24 weeks old and incapable of breathing on its own.

For advocates of women's reproductive rights, her case underscores the ongoing criminalization of free choice, and sets a dangerous precedent for women who seek support and medical care for unwanted pregnancies and miscarriages.

"When these feticide laws were passed, their supporters tried to claim they would never be used against the women themselves, that they were there to protect them," Alexa Kolbi-Molinas, legal counsel for reproductive rights at the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), told VICE News. "Patel's prosecution just exposes the lies, that any of these laws have anything to do with protecting women."

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/05/buckhalter-mississippi-stillbirth-manslaughter

The cause of any given miscarriage or stillbirth is difficult to determine, and many experts believe there is no conclusive evidence that exposure to drugs in utero can cause a miscarriage or stillbirth. Because of this, prosecuting Buckhalter opens the door to investigating and prosecuting women for any number of other potential causes of a miscarriage or stillbirth, her lawyers argued in a filing to the state Supreme Court—"smoking, drinking alcohol, using drugs, exercising against doctor's orders, or failing to follow advice regarding conditions such as obesity or hypertension." Supreme Court Justice Leslie D. King also raised this question in the oral arguments last month: "Doctors say women should avoid herbal tea, things like unpasteurized cheese, lunch meats. Exactly what are the boundaries?"

There are also cases like this in Alabama, Louisiana and Florida

It ain't propaganda when it's actually happening.

It ain't mind reading when you're actually on record as voting for the decriminalization of miscarries and then actually persecuting women for having them.

It is politically convenient and politically correct right wing speech to claim this isn't going to happen, isn't happending and for the woman's own protection that these laws exist.

the GOP want's women who end their pregancies put in jail.

Period.

Full stop.

Trump just said it out loud.

Why are you so guys so reluctant to embrace your own policies ?

 

[graceandpeace]

Logically, it makes sense that the end game for (hypothetically) obtaining an abortion when the procedure is illegal is some sort of punishment. To many who support the freedom to obtain a legal abortion, Trump's remark represents the ultimate goal of the extreme side of the pro-life movement.

Morally, abortion is a complicated issue for me - while I find certain abortions to be for trivial reasons (& therefore to me, distressing), I also believe abortion is the right medical choice at times. IMO, it's not up to me to dictate what's trivial & what's necessary. In other words, abortion should only be the concern of the woman & her healthcare provider.