Domestic Violence

[Jack of Spades]

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While I agree with 90% of what was said in that quote, I think there is one very important note to be made.

There are times, when the two must be taken into account at the same time, like for example if the name of a campaign was "Why men are so evil? - Fight domestic abuse!".

When women's problem is presented as a problem that men cause, due to their male sex, that presentation in itself becomes a men's issue and it can't be discussed outside of that topic. Men and women don't exist in separate vacuums, and sometimes men's problems are tied to attempts to solve women's issues.

Yeah, it sucks and there is bound to be some collateral damage both ways. But just something to recognize.

 

[MehGuy]

As an anti-feminist... I guess I encourage you feminists to continue doing the same things you've been doing. Ignore male victims and all that. You've been really successful so far. In fact I recommend trying to be even more one sided, if possible. I want feminism to have a "bright" future.

 

[Zoii]

As an anti-feminist... I guess I encourage you feminists to continue doing the same things you've been doing. Ignore male victims and all that. You've been really successful so far. In fact I recommend trying to be even more one sided, if possible. I want feminism to have a "bright" future.

Aw cmon thats not fair because I have only ever presented objective government data, and have also said that if you didnt agree then pick data you like.... because the message of this thread is consistent ..... DONT BE A SILENT WITNESS TO DOMESTIC VIOLENCE. Youve been great to participate so please dont go to this negative level

 

[MehGuy]

Aw cmon thats not fair because I have only ever presented objective government data, and have also said that if you didnt agree then pick data you like.... because the message of this thread is consistent ..... DONT BE A SILENT WITNESS TO DOMESTIC VIOLENCE. Youve been great to participate so please dont go to this negative level

Just laying reality down. Feminism is highly unpopular among men. If things don't radically change feminism will never have a real future.

 

[Zoii]

Just laying reality down. Feminism is highly unpopular among men. If things don't radically change feminism will never have a real future.

Well its a good topic but not the one here. Why dont you start a thread. Im sure it will create a lot of debate and you can explain your concerns

 

[MehGuy]

Well its a good topic but not the one here. Why dont you start a thread. Im sure it will create a lot of debate and you can explain your concerns

Yeah I think I'm done with this thread. Not that I'm really angry or anything, it is just what it is.

 

[Armoured]

While I agree with 90% of what was said in that quote, I think there is one very important note to be made.

There are times, when the two must be taken into account at the same time, like for example if the name of a campaign was "Why men are so evil? - Fight domestic abuse!".

When women's problem is presented as a problem that men cause, due to their male sex, that presentation in itself becomes a men's issue and it can't be discussed outside of that topic. Men and women don't exist in separate vacuums, and sometimes men's problems are tied to attempts to solve women's issues.

Yeah, it sucks and there is bound to be some collateral damage both ways. But just something to recognize.

Hence the part about "bring it up, that's fine, but if you ONLY bring up men's issues when women's issue... etc"

 

[Jack of Spades]

Hence the part about "bring it up, that's fine, but if you ONLY bring up men's issues when women's issue... etc"

Now I'm going to have to come up with some cool rhetorical device that creates an impression that I didn't miss the word. How about this:

It was a reminder and a note, not a disagreement!

 

[Armoured]

Just laying reality down. Feminism is highly unpopular among men. If things don't radically change feminism will never have a real future.

Speak for yourself. Plenty of men ARE feminists.

Further, I sincerely believe that most men who are "anti-feminist" are really "anti-made up strawman/extremist outlier feminist", which, you'll find, most feminists are equally condemnatory of.

 

[Armoured]

Now I'm going to have to come up with some cool rhetorical device that creates an impression that I didn't miss the word. How about this:

It was a reminder and a note, not a disagreement!

Claim English as a second language. Then any English speaker who's Finnish isn't as good as your English who continues to criticise looks bad.

 

[Jack of Spades]

Claim English as a second language. Then any English speaker who's Finnish isn't as good as your English who continues to criticise looks bad.

Hyvä suunnitelma, jätkä.

Speak for yourself. Plenty of men ARE feminists.

In it's dictionary definition yes, I would be a feminist. But I wouldn't use the word, though due to certain associations.

Words tend to carry emotional loads that go beyond their dictionary definitions.

Further, I sincerely believe that most men who are "anti-feminist" are really "anti-made up strawman/extremist outlier feminist", which, you'll find, most feminists are equally condemnatory of.

In all fairness, isn't that the case with all anti-something?

But seriously, we should make a new thread for this...

 

[Armoured]

Hyvä suunnitelma, jätkä.

You sound surprised? My plans are usually pretty good, yet people always seem surprised.

In it's dictionary definition yes, I would be a feminist. But I wouldn't use the word, though due to certain associations.

Words tend to carry emotional loads that go beyond their dictionary definitions.

The associations are the strawmen I'm talking about

In all fairness, isn't that the case with all anti-something?

But seriously, we should make a new thread for this...

Can be, but not always. I like to think the things I'm "anti" are based on logic and reason, rather than emotional appeals and strawmen. I invite anyone to pull me up on anything where this is not the case. I'm an "anti-antivaxxer" and an "anti-antievolutionist", for example, and like to think I don't use strawmen too much. Anti-Newzealander, too, of course, but with them I've never heard an attempt at a strawman that was worse than the reality.

 

[Jack of Spades]

You sound surprised? My plans are usually pretty good, yet people always seem surprised.The associations are the strawmen I'm talking aboutCan be, but not always. I like to think the things I'm "anti" are based on logic and reason, rather than emotional appeals and strawmen. I invite anyone to pull me up on anything where this is not the case. I'm an "anti-antivaxxer" and an "anti-antievolutionist", for example, and like to think I don't use strawmen too much. Anti-Newzealander, too, of course, but with them I've never heard an attempt at a strawman that was worse than the reality.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/ethics-of-anti-something.7974831/

^ let's take this there

 

[bhsmte]

That's kind o an arguable point, actually. The fact is, the very idea of men suffering domestic violence at the hands of women is a relatively recent one. Until very recently, any man alleging assault would have been laughed at by law enforcement and the general public alike.

Now, I personally suspect that women suffer more domestic violence than men, and women certainly seem more likely to suffer the really extreme injuries, up to and including death. I don't want to diminish that for a second. But, having said that, I think we can be fairly sure that the actual number of women on men domestic violence is woefully under reported. Same sex domestic violence, too, for that matter.

You would be correct. If you look at the latest studies on this topic and dig beneath the old entrenched perceptions, you will see a different picture of reality.

Lets just say I have first hand experience in regards to this topic and through that experience, have done my own research and have been exposed to experts in this area; both mental health professionals and attorneys. There is no question, that domestic violence from women to men is wildly underreported. Also, there is another reality; a good percentage of the claims of domestic violence women claim against men, are false allegations and especially so, during divorce proceeding and or custody battles. Some women will not hesitate, to use the domestic violence or abuse card, because they know it may get them mileage.

 

[MehGuy]

Speak for yourself. Plenty of men ARE feminists.

Further, I sincerely believe that most men who are "anti-feminist" are really "anti-made up strawman/extremist outlier feminist", which, you'll find, most feminists are equally condemnatory of.

Roughly how many men do you think are feminist? Like do you actually think feminism has a real future? I certainly don't. Other than perhaps stuff like furthering hysterical sexual assault culture and landing more innocent men behind bars.

Straw feminists? Kind of like the straw MRAs that exist in many feminists minds?

 

[MyOwnSockPuppet]

I think government data can be corrupt and prone to bias. Maybe it's actually true? Who knows? I'd just like to look at the methodology more closely.

The UK figures in the Crown Prosecution Service sixth annual Violence Against Women and Girls: Crime Report had to be altered at the last minute to include the expression (inclusive of data on men and boys) on the cover after one investigative journalist actually looked at their figures with more than a cursory glance to find that 1/6 of the injured parties were definitely male and about half couldn't be identified one way or the other as the gender wasn't recorded (crime report here: http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/docs/cps_vawg_report_2016.pdf )

The same methodology was used in annual reports 1-5, with no-one actually noticing (or caring to notice).

 

[Zoii]

You would be correct. If you look at the latest studies on this topic and dig beneath the old entrenched perceptions, you will see a different picture of reality.

Lets just say I have first hand experience in regards to this topic and through that experience, have done my own research and have been exposed to experts in this area; both mental health professionals and attorneys. There is no question, that domestic violence from women to men is wildly underreported. Also, there is another reality; a good percentage of the claims of domestic violence women claim against men, are false allegations and especially so, during divorce proceeding and or custody battles. Some women will not hesitate, to use the domestic violence or abuse card, because they know it may get them mileage.

If men entrench themselves in thinking that women are making this up - then sadly you are definitely someone who I shall fight tooth and nail because thats the attitude that shifts it from being a problem to being a nightmare without solutions. When you say the term "good percentage" you may need to back that up with objective stats because in a forum like this, it can be interpreted as a majority of cases.... when very likely it is the less than 1 percent (though I dont have objective data on this either)

 

[bhsmte]

If men entrench themselves in thinking that women are making this up - then sadly you are definitely someone who I shall fight tooth and nail because thats the attitude that shifts it from being a problem to being a nightmare without solutions. When you say the term "good percentage" you may need to back that up with objective stats because in a forum like this, it can be interpreted as a majority of cases.... when very likely it is the less than 1 percent (though I dont have objective data on this either)

As I stated, in disputes such as divorce and custody (which are common), the data shows a high percentage of allegations from women against men are false. Again, I have dealt directly with mental health professionals who deal with this on a day to day basis confirm the same.

Also, both physical and emotional abuse from women towards men, is highly under reported and I posted a link to support that as well.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joseph-e-cordell/false-allegations-of-abus_b_8578086.html

 

[Zoii]

As I stated, in disputes such as divorce and custody (which are common), the data shows a high percentage of allegations from women against men are false. Again, I have dealt directly with mental health professionals who deal with this on a day to day basis confirm the same.

Also, both physical and emotional abuse from women towards men, is highly under reported and I posted a link to support that as well.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joseph-e-cordell/false-allegations-of-abus_b_8578086.html

My point was if you make this type of claim you should at least back it up with objective data. Your whole point was based on the Huffington Post. Did you check their sources?... I did. They rest their whole story on an interview with a law firm and an article that came from a website whose position is that DV allegations are commonly false; their mission statement being :

The publication from this site uses two sources:
Johnston J et al. Allegations and substantiations of abuse in custody-disputing families. Family Court Review, Vol. 43, No. 2, 2005.

Foster BP. Analyzing the cost and effectiveness of governmental policies. Cost Management, Vol. 22, No. 3, 2008.

One reference is 11 years old and the other 8. Neither is a research article . In other words this Huffington post saying 70% of women make fraudulent DV claims is nothing but an individuals opinion without objective data to back it up.

Your opinion is not supported by any government agency or any law enforcement agency. Your opinion is also not supported as you suggest by the health professionals. I am happy to provide actual research links if you like

 

[Jack of Spades]

In other words this Huffington post saying 70% of women make fraudulent DV claims is nothing but an individuals opinion without objective data to back it up.

Just for clarification, it said that 70% of allegations in a divorce situations specifically, not 70% of DV allegations overall.

I couldn't find any reasonable data on false allegations statistics at all. I would like to see a study about what the real percentage is, if there is such a study.