Domestic Discipline

[Mirelys]

Then, please back it up with scriptures rather than "opinion". Show why its wrong. Christian sex experts could not.

Please, listen to me. We are not talking about sex here. We are not talking about BDSM. It is Domestic Discipline, which is (according to the article in the OP) nonsexual. Please keep them separate---when it comes to BDSM I agree with you, but this is a totally different thing.

 

[Mirelys]

Here is the main difference between BDSM and Domestic Discipline:

A safe word is indispensable in BDSM. Basically it is a word that a couple chooses which means "Stop and I really mean it." The safe word is sacrosanct; it is not ignored, because to do so would be a violation and a crime.

Domestic Discipline does not use safe words. According to one of the articles in the link (link was removed by staff, btw), husband and wife sign a contract showing that they intend to follow this lifestyle. However, after the contract is signed, I can't find a place that says the wife has any choice about getting out of the life style. In fact, here is what it says in one article:

Question: I have a tendency to actually refuse to be spanked when I am angry. And, worse, even while I hear myself outright refusing I KNOW it's wrong and that I will eventually be spanked and worse but I cannot seem to swallow my pride when I'm angry and submit to a spanking I know I deserve.
My question, finally, is actually more for my husband: What should he do when faced with my blatent refusal to submit to a spanking?
Currently, he "waits" me out knowing that my temper will eventually burn itself out and that he can then order me to submit to disicipline and I will.
Answer: It is entirely up to your HOH as to whether he waits you out when you refuse a spanking or whether he forces you to submit to your fully deserved and justly administered punishment.
Some HOH's prefer to physically force their woman over their knee and give her the spanking she deserves. Others prefer a more subtle approach which nonetheless results in the woman being punished for her offense.
Instead of asking how your HOH should behave, you should be asking how you should behave yourself. You have already said that you know you should submit to your spankings. So why are you expecting your husband to do all the work? He already puts a lot of hard work into spanking you when you misbehave. On top of all that, he is supposed to drag you, kicking and screaming, to the punishment you already know you deserve?

In another place, they say that it is perfectly acceptable for individual spankings to occur against the wife's will, and is in fact beneficial.

 

[JimfromOhio]

All I am saying is that Christians should guard against the tendency of the flesh to assume a critical and censorious attitude toward those who do not share our opinions about matters, who are married, practicing a lifestyle in the privacy of the own home is no business of ours. Rather than "pick to pieces" our brethren in Christ, it is our privilege and duty to do everything we can to encourage their spiritual edification. We ought to love and pray for one another and consider ourselves lest we be tempted. Galatians 6:1.

Who decides what is right and wrong In the world? Who has the authority to define morality for all of creation? It is not the courts, congress, the media, public opinion, the "politically correct" police, the "tolerance" brigade or even the church. The only answer has been, is and always will be Jesus Christ. You can find His opinion on a great variety of subjects in His best seller... The Bible. Jeffrey E. Ramey

The trouble with most Christians today is that they would rather be on the judgment seat than on the witness stand. Anonymous

Oh, how horrible our sins look when they are committed by someone else! Chuck Smith

 

[Mirelys]

All I am saying is that Christians should guard against the tendency of the flesh to assume a critical and censorious attitude toward those who do not share our opinions about matters, who are married, practicing a lifestyle in the privacy of the own home is no business of ours. Rather than "pick to pieces" our brethren in Christ, it is our privilege and duty to do everything we can to encourage their spiritual edification. We ought to love and pray for one another and consider ourselves lest we be tempted. Galatians 6:1.

Who decides what is right and wrong In the world? Who has the authority to define morality for all of creation? It is not the courts, congress, the media, public opinion, the "politically correct" police, the "tolerance" brigade or even the church. The only answer has been, is and always will be Jesus Christ. You can find His opinion on a great variety of subjects in His best seller... The Bible. Jeffrey E. Ramey

The trouble with most Christians today is that they would rather be on the judgment seat than on the witness stand. Anonymous

Oh, how horrible our sins look when they are committed by someone else! Chuck Smith

So if a husband was beating his wife until she was black and blue, you wouldn't think it was your business?
Thank God you weren't my neighbor. I might have been seriously injured if no one had come by.

 

[JimfromOhio]

So if a husband was beating his wife until she was black and blue, you wouldn't think it was your business?
Thank God you weren't my neighbor. I might have been seriously injured if no one had come by.

I know what you mean. There was a case when a police was called to a house, the husband got arrested and went to court. The judge threw the case out when the wife said its part of their lifestyle even though the police called it "domestic violence". The police had to enforce the law and let the court handle the matter.

I don't know what to say about their lifestyle. We can do anything to help them but when a wife says she is not being abused, what a court and church to do?

 

[Mirelys]

I know what you mean. There was a case when a police was called to a house, the husband got arrested and went to court. The judge threw the case out when the wife said its part of their lifestyle even though the police called it "domestic violence". The police had to enforce the law and let the court handle the matter.

I don't know what to say about their lifestyle. We can do anything to help them but when a wife says she is not being abused, what a court and church to do?

I agree with you there. I think all we can do is condemn violent behavior wherever it occurs so that people realize it is harmful, and hope for the best.

 

[suzybeezy]

STAFF HAT ON

This thread is closed for staff review and also give some of ya'll time to cool down and remember the rules of no flaming/belittling/insulting.

.: Forum Rule 1 :.
Rule No. 1 - No "Flaming"
1.1 You will not post any messages that harass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest.

STAFF HAT OFF

 

[suzybeezy]

Closed while staff reviews thread

 

[suzybeezy]

After staff review - thread is being reopened - with the reminder everyone to continue the conversation sans interpersonal conflict.

 

[MERCY@GRACE]

Hehee, I thought everybody was being tame

 

[christalee4]

Submission in most of the world is by force. Submission in the Bible is overwhelmingly by force. If you look at your situation and say everyone should be the same way because you think its the way to go you will become a victim of cultural elitism. American men are among the most disrespected by their wives in the world. The fruits of this are many families broken beyond recognition or repair. This is not a strength of our society.

On the first highlighted statement: that is highly generalized, and I am not sure, correct, either. The submission discussed in this thread primarily was centered on the issue of Domestic Discipline, which is a highly physical submission - not about cultures, or the general nature of males and females.

When the Bible talks about submission between a believer and God, and between a husband and wife, there is nothing said that submission must be done with force. We are to submit ourselves to God above all, and if a wife chooses to submit to her husband, she does so voluntarily. To force anyone, including a wife to submission is COMPLETELY against what God wants, and I will venture to say, is sinful and of an evil nature.

On your second highlighted statement, that seems to be your opinion, and without any kind of proof or backup. Compared to which cultures do you think American men fare worse? If a man has a right to beat his wife whenever he feels it is necessary, give testimony that is worth more than his wife's, or to divorce her when he wants to, or to kill her if he feels his honor is being bismirched, does that mean that that man is more respected? I thank God that America is the land of the free, that our nation provides equal rights and freedoms for all, and that our women are not treated like property or lesser beings. Isn't that what we're fighting overseas for?

 

[christalee4]

No doubt my "reputation" will go way down from this but I think y'all are being pretty judgmental. You don't know what goes on in the homes of those who practice DD. You don't know how the wives feel about it. You are making judgments about people who have chosen a lifestyle that suits their needs based on one part of one article, not based on hearing about any experiences. My husband and I practice Christian Domestic Discipline. It has made our marriage very strong and I willingly submit to it. I am not forced, I am not "beaten" and I am probably the most blessed wife on the face of the earth. I respect my husband because he takes me in hand when needed. And I love him for it. Now you can disagree with me all you want and you can tear me apart, but the fact remains fact - we have a love for each other that is not going to die. So quit judging what other people do in the privacy of their home. No one asked any of y'all to adopt this lifestyle or preached to you that it is the only way. That article comes from a blog that is meant for those who are interested in the lifestyle, not for those who want to berate others. Where is the Christian love and tolerance in your comments. It sure did not flow out to me!!!

I want to thank you for your courage to speak out. I appreciate your honesty and I am sure it took some doing to let others know that there are actually couples like yourselves who practice this philosophy.

I am sorry that you took umbrage at people judging your lifestyle. It is not an orthodox one, so you will have to forgive us if we don't understand. Many of us have experienced physical and verbal abuse in our past and look at physical "discipline" between adults as abuse, especially as it is described on Domestic Discipline websites. Obviously, the other concern brought up was whether children of a couple practicing this lifestyle may be exposed, if only in part, to the dynamics of such a relationship. If you have children, hopefully, they are not not.

Lastly, I wish you no ill will - only that you are well and have future happiness and harmony in whatever path you take.

God bless and take care of you,

Christa Lee

 

[Latreia]

Amen... That's what I was trying to say in my previous posts. Judgemental is a problem. I may not like what I saw, but its not my place to judge.

What a shame that you took my post with verses from the New Testament about judges and judging as agreement with you.
It had nothing at all to do with your reluctance to help stop abuse and distortion of the Christian faith.

Those verses were posted in direct connection with the Husband's role in "Domestic Discipline." According to the Holy Bible, no man has the right to assume God-like power over another human being and feel entitled to absolute control over anyone else. That is not even politically correct with teen-agers any more!!!!

How does one go about one's Christian duties to serve our fellow human beings in suffering and danger without JUDGEMENT??? If your house were on fire, would you like to see firemen drive up and say, "We can't presume to put out this fire, it is too judgemental." How if some hood with a gun were standing there, ready to shoot you and police cars just drove by without helping you, because no police officer wants to be judgemental???

Perhaps Thomas Jefferson can explain it as he writes about our Nation:

"....the opinions and belief of men depends not on their own will, but follow involuntarily the evidence to their minds. /

...Almighty God hath created the mind free, and manifested His Supreme Will that free it shall remain;

...all attempts to influence it by *temporal punishments tend to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and are a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, who, being Lord both of body and mind, chose not to *propagate it by *coercions on either."


*temporal
a : of or relating to time as opposed to eternity
b : of or relating to earthly life
c : lay or secular rather than clerical or sacred

*propagate
2 : to pass along to offspring

3 a : to cause to spread out and affect a greater number or greater area :
b : to foster growing knowledge of, familiarity with, or acceptance of (as an idea or belief)

*coercion
1. forcing of somebody to do something: the use of force or threats to make somebody do something against his or her will

2. force used to compel somebody: force or threats used to make somebody do something against his or her will



1 Corinthians 4:2-4(Amplified Bible)
2 Moreover, it is [essentially] required of stewards that a man should be found faithful [proving himself worthy of trust].

{Christian woman}
3 But [as for me personally] it matters very little to me that I should be put on trial by you [on this point], and that you or any other human tribunal should investigate and question and cross-question me. I do not even put myself on trial and judge myself.

4 I am not conscious of anything against myself, and I feel blameless; but I am not vindicated and acquitted before God on that account. It is the Lord [Himself] Who examines and judges me.


1 Corinthians 6:2 (Amplified Bible)
2 Do you not know that the saints (the believers) will [one day] judge and govern the world? And if the world [itself] is to be judged and ruled by you, are you unworthy and incompetent to try [such petty matters] of the smallest courts of justice?

 

[luvmyhubby]

I want to thank you for your courage to speak out. I appreciate your honesty and I am sure it took some doing to let others know that there are actually couples like yourselves who practice this philosophy.

I am sorry that you took umbrage at people judging your lifestyle. It is not an orthodox one, so you will have to forgive us if we don't understand. Many of us have experienced physical and verbal abuse in our past and look at physical "discipline" between adults as abuse, especially as it is described on Domestic Discipline websites. Obviously, the other concern brought up was whether children of a couple practicing this lifestyle may be exposed, if only in part, to the dynamics of such a relationship. If you have children, hopefully, they are not not.

Lastly, I wish you no ill will - only that you are well and have future happiness and harmony in whatever path you take.

God bless and take care of you,

Christa Lee

Thank you for this post. I might suggest that rather than everyone jumping on the bandwagon and immediately assuming that those involved in domestic discipline are in an abusive relationship you ask questions. If you don't understand it, ask, don't just say it is wrong, not God's way, abusive.... It is not an orthodox lifestyle, but that gives no one the right to question it without knowing facts. I realize there are many abused women in the world, but I and friends I have made from other forums are not among them. It is something we truely believe to be right for us. Another thing - I am not saying that any of y'all should agree to the lifestyle. All I am asking is you don't belittle those of us who are in it. I'm not going to waste time being overly defensive - but I will repeat that not once have I been beaten.

As for children, I do not believe that they should be any more a part of this than they are of their parents' sex lives. We do not have children, but if we did they would be in the dark about this. Others I know who are in this lifestyle feel the same way about that issue.

I thank you for your well wishes, and for your thoughtfulness and openess in your post. This lifestyle is not easy to live because it is done so in secret, but my husband and I find it extremely beneficial for us. While it is not for everyone, just as certain bedroom practices are not for everyone, it is something we have found a great deal of peace with and we enjoy the results that it gives our relationship.

God bless!

 

[Latreia]

luvmyhubby, it would really be of great help for all to understand better if you could post a link to a Christian website that teaches about Christian Domestic Discipline. Don't you and your hubby also belong to some church, you do not give your church or denomination.

Thanks, any info would help to stop the misunderstanding and judgement of this form of marriage.

 

[JimfromOhio]

What a shame that you took my post with verses from the New Testament about judges and judging as agreement with you.
It had nothing at all to do with your reluctance to help stop abuse and distortion of the Christian faith.

Those verses were posted in direct connection with the Husband's role in "Domestic Discipline." According to the Holy Bible, no man has the right to assume God-like power over another human being and feel entitled to absolute control over anyone else. That is not even politically correct with teen-agers any more!!!!

How does one go about one's Christian duties to serve our fellow human beings in suffering and danger without JUDGEMENT??? If your house were on fire, would you like to see firemen drive up and say, "We can't presume to put out this fire, it is too judgemental." How if some hood with a gun were standing there, ready to shoot you and police cars just drove by without helping you, because no police officer wants to be judgemental???

Perhaps Thomas Jefferson can explain it as he writes about our Nation:

"....the opinions and belief of men depends not on their own will, but follow involuntarily the evidence to their minds. /

...Almighty God hath created the mind free, and manifested His Supreme Will that free it shall remain;

...all attempts to influence it by *temporal punishments tend to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and are a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, who, being Lord both of body and mind, chose not to *propagate it by *coercions on either."


*temporal
a : of or relating to time as opposed to eternity
b : of or relating to earthly life
c : lay or secular rather than clerical or sacred

*propagate
2 : to pass along to offspring

3 a : to cause to spread out and affect a greater number or greater area :
b : to foster growing knowledge of, familiarity with, or acceptance of (as an idea or belief)

*coercion
1. forcing of somebody to do something: the use of force or threats to make somebody do something against his or her will

2. force used to compel somebody: force or threats used to make somebody do something against his or her will



1 Corinthians 4:2-4(Amplified Bible)
2 Moreover, it is [essentially] required of stewards that a man should be found faithful [proving himself worthy of trust].

{Christian woman}
3 But [as for me personally] it matters very little to me that I should be put on trial by you [on this point], and that you or any other human tribunal should investigate and question and cross-question me. I do not even put myself on trial and judge myself.

4 I am not conscious of anything against myself, and I feel blameless; but I am not vindicated and acquitted before God on that account. It is the Lord [Himself] Who examines and judges me.


1 Corinthians 6:2 (Amplified Bible)
2 Do you not know that the saints (the believers) will [one day] judge and govern the world? And if the world [itself] is to be judged and ruled by you, are you unworthy and incompetent to try [such petty matters] of the smallest courts of justice?

Oh well.. shame on me for preaching on judgemental, at the same time, I was being neutral and trying to make this a balanced discussion.

Forgive me Lord.

 

[luvmyhubby]

luvmyhubby, it would really be of great help for all to understand better if you could post a link to a Christian website that teaches about Christian Domestic Discipline. Don't you and your hubby also belong to some church, you do not give your church or denomination.

Thanks, any info would help to stop the misunderstanding and judgement of this form of marriage.

Unfortunately I know of no Christian websites that support Christian Domestic Discipline. There are a number of Yahoo groups that discuss the topic, and my personal feeling is that this is the best way to learn more about it from the Christian perspective. I might also add that the Loving Domestic Discipline blog, which was quoted at the beginning of this thread, is NOT a Christian site. No where that I can see on that site are Christian principals mentioned. If I ever do come across a Christian site that supports this lifestyle I will be sure to pass it on.

My husband and I attend a non denominational church. This is not something that we got from the church that we attend now, or the church that we attended when we were first married. I doubt that you are going to find it "advertised" in churches, as it is not exactly politically correct to have this lifestyle. We think that only with the advent of the internet and chat groups that allow for anonimity has this lifestyle become more well known. With the prevalence of abuse and the need for authorities to be overzealous in their endevor to put abusers away, it is not something that would be openly discussed in places like a church.

Thanks for asking. I will continue to seek out sites that might help y'all understand. But really it is best understood by hearing and talking with those who practice.

 

[Autumnleaf]

On the first highlighted statement: that is highly generalized, and I am not sure, correct, either. The submission discussed in this thread primarily was centered on the issue of Domestic Discipline, which is a highly physical submission - not about cultures, or the general nature of males and females.

When the Bible talks about submission between a believer and God, and between a husband and wife, there is nothing said that submission must be done with force. We are to submit ourselves to God above all, and if a wife chooses to submit to her husband, she does so voluntarily. To force anyone, including a wife to submission is COMPLETELY against what God wants, and I will venture to say, is sinful and of an evil nature.

Wives are to submit to their husbands and their husbands are to submit to God per the Bible. God wants submission and he has enslaved his people, had them almost annihilated at times, and allowed them to starve to gain that submission. He even drown the world to get submissive people back in the majority. God has no qualms about using force to make us submit to his authority. Should your husband do likewise or should he let you walk all over him?

On your second highlighted statement, that seems to be your opinion, and without any kind of proof or backup. Compared to which cultures do you think American men fare worse? If a man has a right to beat his wife whenever he feels it is necessary, give testimony that is worth more than his wife's, or to divorce her when he wants to, or to kill her if he feels his honor is being bismirched, does that mean that that man is more respected? I thank God that America is the land of the free, that our nation provides equal rights and freedoms for all, and that our women are not treated like property or lesser beings. Isn't that what we're fighting overseas for?

With more wives filing for divorce than husbands and the divorce rate at 50% I don't care to elaborate further on how disrespected men are in the US. The freedom America grants its citizens does not always translate into a Godly society or even a happy one.

Overseas we fight for democracy in Iraq while we trade with people who enslave people who want democracy in China. Shop at Wal-Mart to continue the support of this practice. Don't look to foreign policy for morality unless you don't mind grave disappointment.

 

[christalee4]

Wives are to submit to their husbands and their husbands are to submit to God per the Bible. God wants submission and he has enslaved his people, had them almost annihilated at times, and allowed them to starve to gain that submission. He even drown the world to get submissive people back in the majority. God has no qualms about using force to make us submit to his authority. Should your husband do likewise or should he let you walk all over him?

I guess it all depends on how one interprets the Bible and how one approaches one's faith. The stories of God's displeasure during various periods of man's development, for me, do not translate into a direct order from God to a husband to force his wife into submission. God enjoined a husband to love his wife, not to beat or force her into anything.

Again, the highlighted statement belies a stringent black and white view, that unless a man forces a woman to submit, then she "walks all over him". To purely view a relationship between a man and woman as a power arrangement, in which the man must be the boss and the woman the employee, and anything other renders the man the "weak one", does take into account the very real complexities of human personality and interpersonal relationships. Your ideal arrangement, if "forced", would be unnatural, and supremely unloving.

And please keep my husband out of it - you have absolutely no idea of our own personal relationship, as I do not suppose of yours.

But, if you wish, please inform us of how a man "forces" his wife to submit. What are the techniques, if physical force is not being used: harsh words, yelling, anger, a threatening "look", a show of physical power like punching the wall or throwing things? Perhaps your techniques may benefit a husband who is not as successful in forcing his wife to submit as some.

With more wives filing for divorce than husbands and the divorce rate at 50% I don't care to elaborate further on how disrespected men are in the US. The freedom America grants its citizens does not always translate into a Godly society or even a happy one.

Can you give me a source for your assertion that more women than men file for divorce? I took a quick gander at some sources, but couldn't find a quick link to that statistic. Even IF more women filed for divorce than men, how is that a confirmation that men are "disrespected"? Is it possible for women to be disrespected too? Or don't they count on the Disrespect Meter?

Interesting though that apparently way more women are stalked by ex-husbands than men are stalked by ex-wives - so, I guess women figure more on the Stalking Meter.
http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsUS.shtml

Yes, freedom comes with its price, in many respects. But I would rather live in a free society such as ours, as compared to say, a country like Iran or Saudi Arabia, which can be perceived as "godly". And I disagree with you about a free society being happy - compared to countries that don't allow personal freedoms, we are indeed far happier. We have that choice and can take personal responsibility for our decisions and choices, unlike other despotic, theocratic countries.

 

[Latreia]

Wives are to submit to their husbands and their husbands are to submit to God per the Bible. God wants submission and he has enslaved his people, had them almost annihilated at times, and allowed them to starve to gain that submission. He even drown the world to get submissive people back in the majority. God has no qualms about using force to make us submit to his authority. Should your husband do likewise or should he let you walk all over him?

With more wives filing for divorce than husbands and the divorce rate at 50% I don't care to elaborate further on how disrespected men are in the US. The freedom America grants its citizens does not always translate into a Godly society or even a happy one.

Overseas we fight for democracy in Iraq while we trade with people who enslave people who want democracy in China. Shop at Wal-Mart to continue the support of this practice. Don't look to foreign policy for morality unless you don't mind grave disappointment.

So many narrow viewpoints and so many biased assumptions, so many general judgements on so many complex subjects and so many blank condemnations of so many unrelated areas can, perhaps, comprise a very limited perspective as far as validity and accuracy.