DOJ to announce special counsel for Trump-related Mar-a-Lago and January 6 investigations

[essentialsaltes]

Do you realize the outcome of that whole Russian thing?

8 convictions, including 5 of Trump associates.

 

[DaisyDay]

How many convictions have resulted?

See above.

 

[childeye 2]

You must have been watching a different version - he had every right to refer President Trump for charges - but chose not to - because the evidence did not support it.

To be precise, the Mueller report says he did not make any determination because he didn't feel it was fair to Trump to do so. He never said there wasn't evidence supporting charges pursuant to obstruction or even conspiracy, he only said he did not feel there was enough evidence to bring charges of conspiring with Russia.

 

[stevil]

he only said he did not feel there was enough evidence to bring charges of conspiring with Russia.

When he said this, it was in the context of non Donald Trump members of the Trump presidential campaign.
D Trump himself was never investigated and Mueller was not going to indict a sitting president.

 

[childeye 2]

When he said this, it was in the context of non Donald Trump members of the Trump presidential campaign.
D Trump himself was never investigated and Mueller was not going to indict a sitting president.

You're right, well done. No determination whatsoever was ever made concerning whether a crime was committed, including obstruction. However, this necessarily means that Trump was never exonerated, because had the evidence allowed for Mueller to say there was nothing there that was criminal, he would have said so. That was in the Mueller report. Below is his own testimony about the report.

Mueller testimony before Judiciary panel:

Mueller: "Before we go to questions, I want to add one correction to my testimony this morning. I want to go back to one thing that was said this morning by Mr. Lieu who said, and I quote, 'You didn't charge the president because of the OLC opinion.' That is not the correct way to say it. As we say in the report, and as I said at the opening, we did not reach a determination as to whether the president committed a crime."

House Judiciary Chairman Jerry Nadler: "Under Department of Justice policy, the president could be prosecuted for obstruction of justice crimes after he leaves office — is this correct?"

Mueller: True.

 

[stevil]

House Judiciary Chairman Jerry Nadler: "Under Department of Justice policy, the president could be prosecuted for obstruction of justice crimes after he leaves office — is this correct?"

Mueller: True.

It's 2 years since he left office now. Noone has gone after him for obstruction during the FBI and Special Counsel investigations.

What it possibly means is that a President can behave badly (illegally) up to a point (I assume if the president pulled a gun on someone and shot them in cold blood then they would get charged) and never receive any legal consequences.

So it comes down to politics and the tolerance of voters and allies.
It appears that Trump's legal shenanigans and threats to Democracy have meant that he cannot win a general election ever again.
He can win Republican primaries (perhaps), many Republican voters support him no matter what. Some Republican voters are abandoning him because they are realising he cannot win a general election. But those two groups just mentioned are ok with obstruction, are ok with cicumventing elections, are ok with pardoning people that were stealing from the Build a wall fund.

 

[hislegacy]

D Trump himself was never investigated and Mueller was not going to indict a sitting president.

The ENTIRE investigation was investigating the President. It was the President who provided 1,000,000 pages of documentation - it was the President who was daily called names and accused of all manner of things for three years - it was the President's records subpoenaed, it was the President's communications listened to, it was the Presidents staff questioned about the President's activity.

I find in incredulous there are people actually believing and promoting the idea that the Mueller investigation was not investigating the President.

 

[childeye 2]

The ENTIRE investigation was investigating the President. It was the President who provided 1,000,000 pages of documentation - it was the President who was daily called names and accused of all manner of things for three years - it was the President's records subpoenaed, it was the President's communications listened to, it was the Presidents staff questioned about the President's activity.

I find in incredulous there are people actually believing and promoting the idea that the Mueller investigation was not investigating the President.

The fundamental concern for me is the prospect of Russia helping an American candidate become President who will then implement a more favorable foreign policy for Russia in Ukraine.

 

[stevil]

The ENTIRE investigation was investigating the President. It was the President who provided 1,000,000 pages of documentation

Documentation was requested for the ongoings of the Campaign

- it was the President who was daily called names and accused of all manner of things for three years

I can't remember Comey, or Meuller or the FBI or anyone in Meuller's team calling Trump names

- it was the President's records subpoenaed,

Perhaps campaign records subpoenaed??

it was the President's communications listened to,

They did electronic surveillance of Carter Page. Carter Page isn't Donald Trump

it was the Presidents staff questioned about the President's activity.

They were asked about the ongoings of the Campaign and in particular any interactions with Russians by members of the campaign

I find in incredulous there are people actually believing and promoting the idea that the Mueller investigation was not investigating the President.

This is the order that Rod Rossenstien gave to Mueller

DocumentCloud

www.documentcloud.org

(b) The Special Counsel is authorized to conduct the investigation confirmed by then-FBI Director James B. Comey in testimony before the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence on March 20, 2017, including:

(i) any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump; and

(ii) any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation; and

(iii) any other matters within the scope of 28 C.F.R. § 600.4(a).

(c) If the Special Counsel believes it is necessary and appropriate, the Special Counsel is authorized to prosecute federal crimes arising from the investigation of these matters. . . . .

Where does this say that Donald Trump himself is to be investigated?

Then in the Mueller report at the end of the investigation

Mueller report - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

On obstruction of justice, the report "does not conclude that the President committed a crime, [and] it also does not exonerate him". Since the special counsel's office had decided "not to make a traditional prosecutorial judgment", they "did not draw ultimate conclusions about the President's conduct". The report "does not conclude that the president committed a crime",as investigators decided "not to apply an approach that could potentially result in a judgment that the president committed crimes". Investigators did not make a judgment about whether to charge Trump with a crime, for two main reasons: Firstly, the investigation abided by DOJ Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) opinion written in 2000 that a sitting president cannot be federally indicted, a stance taken from the start of the investigation. Secondly, investigators did not want to charge Trump because a federal criminal charge would hinder a sitting president's "capacity to govern and potentially preempt constitutional process for addressing presidential misconduct", with a footnote reference to impeachment.

This stuff above is public knowledge and is available on the internet. I'm sure you have already seen it. I have no idea why you ignore it.

 

[hislegacy]

the report "does not conclude that the President committed a crime

I thought he was not being investigated?

https://www.cnn.com/specials/politics/trump-russia-ties

Donald Trump - Russia investigation

Donald Trump - Russia investigation: In February 2017 Trump’s new national security adviser, Michael Flynn, was forced to resign after press reports disclosed that Flynn had continued to serve in the White House despite a warning from the Justice Department that he was vulnerable to Russian...

www.britannica.com

Even Britannica shows it.

IMHO - I would have to have been just born a year ago - or on heavy medications living in a cave not to know Trump has been the subject of not just the Russia/Mueller investigation, but over 300 others during his four years in office.

• Russia investigation, including the scope and scale of the Russian government's operations to influence the U.S. political process, and the U.S. government's response, the extent of any links and/or coordination between the Russian government, or related foreign actors, and individuals associated with Trump's campaign, transition, administration or business interests, whether any foreign actor has sought to compromise or holds leverage, financial or otherwise, over Trump, his family, his business, or his associates; whether Trump, his family, or his associates are or were at any time at heightened risk of, or vulnerable to, foreign exploitation; and whether any actors — foreign or domestic — sought or are seeking to impede, obstruct, and/or mislead authorized investigations into these matters

House investigations of Trump and his administration: The full list

The president says it's "harassment." Democrats say they're playing catch-up after two years with virtually no oversight from Republicans.

www.nbcnews.com

Am I saying he is a victim - no - but can you name any president come under more opposition investigations and yet - here he is - never indicted - never found guilty -

 

[stevil]

IMHO - I would have to have been just born a year ago - or on heavy medications living in a cave not to know Trump has been the subject of not just the Russia/Mueller investigation, but over 300 others during his four years in office.

I was talking about the Russia investigation by the FBI and by Mueller.
Comey told Trump in private that he was not being personally investigated.
The Mueller report specifically says that it was not going to indict a sitting president or even determine whether the sitting president had committed any crimes or not.

There was much speculation in the media. Many thought Mueller would look into Trump's finances to see if there were any financial transactions with Russians.

Trump also went on his campaign trail (without a campaign LOL) and to the media and to anyone that would listen and winged and whined about being under investigation, about the "witch hunt", about them being out to get him.

We shouldn't allow ourselves to get confused about what the media was speculating about, what Trump was complaining about and what Fox News opinion show hosts were saying.


As it turns out Mueller didn't look. He didn't investigate D Trump at all. The FBI didn't investigate D Trump and Mueller and his team didn't investigate D Trump and the DOJ didn't investigate D Trump. Not for Russian collusion, not for obstruction.

 

[hislegacy]

I was talking about the Russia investigation by the FBI and by Mueller.
Comey told Trump in private that he was not being personally investigated.
The Mueller report specifically says that it was not going to indict a sitting president or even determine whether the sitting president had committed any crimes or not.

There was much speculation in the media. Many thought Mueller would look into Trump's finances to see if there were any financial transactions with Russians. But as it turns out Mueller didn't look. He didn't investigate D Trump at all. The FBI didn't investigate D Trump and Mueller and his team didn't investigate D Trump and the DOJ didn't investigate D Trump. Not for Russian collusion, not for obstruction.

My links refute that. Sorry.....

 

[DaisyDay]

Am I saying he is a victim - no - but can you name any president come under more opposition investigations and yet - here he is - never indicted - never found guilty -

What opposition? The House, the Senate and the DOJ investigations were all GOP.

 

[stevil]

My links refute that. Sorry.....

Are you able to provide a quote that shows that Comey/FBI or Mueller/DoJ investigated D Trump with regards to Russian Collution?

Your first link is just a link to many other links.
Your second link starts talking about Flynn. I couldn't see anything that says D Trump was personally investigated.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Comey told Trump in private that he was not being personally investigated.

That was at dinner on Valentine's Day 2017, when the FBI was just investigating Trump's allies (Flynn, Manafort, etc.)

After Trump fired Comey in May 2017, Rosenstein appointed a special counsel (Mueller) to investigate possible obstruction by Trump for the firing. The appointment letter, see post #49, transferred the investigations of Flynn, Manafort, etc. to the new Special Counsel.

Short version:

Feb 2017: Comey tells Trump he is not under investigation personally. This is true.
May 2017: Mueller appointed. Now Trump *is* under investigation.

 

[DaisyDay]

Are you able to provide a quote that shows that Comey/FBI or Mueller/DoJ investigated D Trump with regards to Russian Collution?

Your first link is just a link to many other links.
Your second link starts talking about Flynn. I couldn't see anything that says D Trump was personally investigated.

Not only that, but the majority of the investigations weren't about Trump at all, but the administration's policies.

 

[stevil]

That was at dinner on Valentine's Day 2017, when the FBI was just investigating Trump's allies (Flynn, Manafort, etc.)

After Trump fired Comey in May 2017, Rosenstein appointed a special counsel (Mueller) to investigate possible obstruction by Trump for the firing. The appointment letter, see post #49, transferred the investigations of Flynn, Manafort, etc. to the new Special Counsel.

Short version:

Feb 2017: Comey tells Trump he is not under investigation personally. This is true.
May 2017: Mueller appointed. Now Trump *is* under investigation.

Within the Special Council Report

https://www.justice.gov/storage/report_volume2.pdf

Second, while the OLC opinion concludes that a sitting President may not be prosecuted, it recognizes that a criminal investigation during the President’s term is permissible. The OLC opinion also recognizes that a President does not have immunity after he leaves office. And if individuals other than the President committed an obstruction offense, they may be prosecuted at this time. Given those considerations, the facts known to us, and the strong public interest in safeguarding the integrity of the criminal justice system, we conducted a thorough factual investigation in order to preserve the evidence when memories were fresh and documentary materials were available.

So here they are saying they investigated the events for two purposes
1. To preserve the evidence while it is fresh, in case anyone might want to use this after the president leaves office
2. To determine if charges should be brought for non D Trump people involved in potential obstruction.

So Trump's actions with regards to obstruction were investigated and documented, but it was predetermined that regardless of the evidence to be found, Trump would not be charged or accused of any crime..


Third, we considered whether to evaluate the conduct we investigated under the Justice Manual standards governing prosecution and declination decisions, but we determined not to apply an approach that could potentially result in a judgment that the President committed crimes. The threshold step under the Justice Manual standards is to assess whether a person’s conduct “constitutes a federal offense.” U.S. Dep’t of Justice, Justice Manual § 9-27.220 (2018) (Justice Manual). Fairness concerns counseled against potentially reaching that judgment when no charges can be brought. The ordinary means for an individual to respond to an accusation is through a speedy and public trial, with all the procedural protections that surround a criminal case. An individual who believes he was wrongly accused can use that process to seek to clear his name. In contrast, a prosecutor’s judgment that crimes were committed, but that no charges will be brought, affords no such adversarial opportunity for public name-clearing before an impartial adjudicator

Here is an interesting breakdown of Trump's actions to stop or interfere in the investigations, and Mueller's statements about those

11 moments Mueller investigated for obstruction of justice

Special counsel Robert Mueller ultimately did not reach a final conclusion on the topic, but his report presented multiple instances in which Trump’s actions were “capable of exerting undue influence over" the investigations.

www.pbs.org

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

See above.

You were referring to random connected individuals. I am referring to the whole "Trump is a russian asset" disinformation.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

See above.

How many convictions of Trump? You know, the epicenter of all bad things (if you listen to certain propaganda)?

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Yes, I do. It was a pretty successful investigation, lots of indictments and convictions, lots of details uncovered and disclosed. Quite shocking stuff went on.

Kudos to the Republicans, in specific Rod Rossenstien for ensuring this investigation happened and continued especially given that his boss had fired the last guy that ran the investigation and continually went to the media to complain about it.

Trump is in prison now? Source?