Does your Eschatology pass the "SO WHAT?" test?

[BobRyan]

"So What?" as in "Let's say your end-times view is completely correct... but I don't know anything about your view of end-times.. so what??"

The gospels-only Christian in the scenarios below is one who accepts the gospels, accepts the Bible, is born-again and saved.. but finds all that end-times stuff as too complicated and confusing and so -- just reading the gospels ... ignores all the rest. Ignores even the parts of the gospels that address end times such as Matthew 24.

Some easy questions:
1. Do you agree that in the scenarios you see predicted in the Bible - no human has control over what God does at the end of time - coming to take the saints and destroy the wicked... no matter how He does it.?

2. Do you agree that "not knowing" ahead of time each thing God will do - does not change what He will do?

3. Do you agree that accepting Christ as your savior - the Christ of the Gospels - and being born-again, justified walking in the Spirit - is the right thing for us to do?

The HARD Questions:
What then is "the risk" of not knowing the scenario you promote ahead of time for the one who is a Christian?

When has there EVER been a case in the Bible where a warning regarding a world-ending world-changing crisis event.. ignored... results in NO RISK?


Baptist: Pre, Mid, Post trib rapture and pre-mill

1. A gospels-only Christian has no risk at all in the pre-trib pre-mill rapture LDE – he will find out all about it in heaven.

2. A gospel-reading Christian who ignores all the rest of the Bible – also has no risk if the mid-trib pre-mill Baptist view is correct and he does not know about it.

3. A gospel-reading Christian who ignores all the rest of the Bible – also has no risk if the post-trib pre-mill Baptist view is correct and he does not know about it until he gets to the 2nd coming.


Catholic

1. A gospel-only reading Christian who ignores the rest of the Bible – also has no risk if the Catholic Amillennial view is correct and he does not know about it until the 2nd coming

a. He/she simply wakes up one day and finds that the Catholics have turned the Earth into a wonderful paradise and Christ is just now showing up … what a joy… no risk.

As far as I know the Presbyterian and Methodist views fit into one of those listed above so am not repeating this for those groups.

Any others?

=================================

BY CONTRAST - take every warning in scripture during the past - was there ever an example where God gave a warning about what was about to happen and ignoring that warning ended up with a "so what?" that was of the form "no added risk, no difference".???

Adam and Eve were warned -- they ignored it... they suffered the consequence

Noah gave his last day events message and people ignored him. they suffered the consequences.

John the baptizer gave his present-truth message and warning -- the people ignored him ... they suffered the consequences.

But most views so popular today -- fit the "so what" model where it simply does not matter if they are right or not in what they predict.

Are there exceptions to this rule other than in the case of the SDA view of Last Day events?

 

[keras]

But most views so popular today -- fit the "so what" model where it simply does not matter if they are right or not in what they predict.

Are there exceptions to this rule other than in the case of the SDA view of Last Day events?

Believe me, knowing the Prophetic Word matters!
It is a bad mistake to ignore about a quarter of the Bible. God has given us a complete preview of His Plans for our future. Failure to read and at least try to understand what is Written, is nothing short of telling God that you don't bother with His Word about the end times.
Salvation is of paramount importance, but to ignore the Prophesies, may result in your loss of salvation, or at least in your rewards, if you don't know what to be careful about or are unaware of dramatic events.

Remember; we will all stand before God in Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15
Will He ask you why you didn't take any notice of His warnings? You just said: "So what"?

 

[Douggg]

"So What?" as in "Let's say your end-times view is completely correct... but I don't know anything about your view of end-times.. so what??"

Then you would be living in ignorance and darkness.

1Thessalonians5:
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

 

[BobRyan]

Believe me, knowing the Prophetic Word matters!
It is a bad mistake to ignore about a quarter of the Bible. God has given us a complete preview of His Plans for our future. Failure to read and at least try to understand what is Written, is nothing short of telling God that you don't bother with His Word about the end times.
Salvation is of paramount importance, but to ignore the Prophesies, may result in your loss of salvation, or at least in your rewards, if you don't know what to be careful about or are unaware of dramatic events.

Remember; we will all stand before God in Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15
Will He ask you why you didn't take any notice of His warnings? You just said: "So what"?

My OP challenge is to show that there is something lost or risked by taking the "so what if you are right and I pay no attention (since Jesus is already my Savior and I accept the gospels -- in the OP scenario).

I try to take each scenario and show why it appears to me that nothing is at risk.

My complaint is "this should not be the case" since in every case in the Bible - ignoring a Biblical warning was always leaving the person who did it - "with bad consequences"

yet when we look at each one of those options ... case by case -- there is no "bad consequence" for not knowing about it and just sticking with the gospels.

And the result is that many people look at this topic and conclude "it is all so complicated and everyone has different ideas... what difference does it make? We will all be informed about it when we get to heaven".

 

[keras]

And the result is that many people look at this topic and conclude "it is all so complicated and everyone has different ideas... what difference does it make? We will all be informed about it when we get to heaven".

'when we get to heaven', Quote BobRyan.

That shows how people have listened to false teachings and believed unbiblical theories, just as Paul said they would. 2 Timothy 4:3-4
It wouldn't be so bad, if people had no ideas about what will happen and just trusted the Lord to get them thru it. But to believe they will be taken to heaven before anything bad happens, makes for complacency and leaves people unprepared for what we are told God has planned for our future.

 

[BobRyan]

'when we get to heaven', Quote BobRyan.

That shows how people have listened to false teachings and believed unbiblical theories, just as Paul said they would. 2 Timothy 4:3-4
It wouldn't be so bad, if people had no ideas about what will happen and just trusted the Lord to get them thru it. But to believe they will be taken to heaven before anything bad happens, makes for complacency and leaves people unprepared for what we are told God has planned for our future.

Once again going back to the subject of thread - "the so what" question. No matter how you view it

- unless you have something in your view that is of the form "if you did not know ahead of time that you were going to be on earth then we will send you to heaven to be by yourself while the rest of us are all still on Earth" or something of that sort

-- then I assume you are offering yet another answer to the "so what?" question that is still of the form "does not matter"??

 

[BobRyan]

This topic is more difficult to address than I had anticipated -- apparently

 

[Timtofly]

So what? It still needs to be addressed, no?

Well John the Baptist claimed the Saviour was coming.

This time around the good news is that Christ is coming to kill all mankind and destroy the earth with fire. Not listening to "John the Baptist" this time just means you will not spend the extra 1990 years in sheol like the 1st century non believers have.

 

[BobRyan]

So what? It still needs to be addressed, no?

Agreed. I am trying to get someone to show that they have or someone has a view that rises above 'So What'?

Well John the Baptist claimed the Saviour was coming.

Agreed. I gave that one as one of the examples that DOES have a significant consequence for the one who simply responds with "so what" and ignores his warning msg.

This time around the good news is that Christ is coming to kill all mankind and destroy the earth with fire. Not listening to "John the Baptist" this time just means you will not spend the extra 1990 years in sheol like the 1st century non believers have.

remember the "starting conditions" set in the OP is someone who DOES accept Christ as Savior, is born again and only reads the 4 gospels (and maybe some of the Psalms) -- totally ignoring ALL the end time scenarios in the Bible and on this board...

So the task is to find at least one end time scenario that rises above the "So what? There is no risk to me if I ignore that truth even if it is so"

 

[BABerean2]

"So What?" as in "Let's say your end-times view is completely correct... but I don't know anything about your view of end-times.. so what??"

The gospels-only Christian in the scenarios below is one who accepts the gospels, accepts the Bible, is born-again and saved.. but finds all that end-times stuff as too complicated and confusing and so -- just reading the gospels ... ignores all the rest. Ignores even the parts of the gospels that address end times such as Matthew 24.



Baptist: Pre, Mid, Post trib rapture and pre-mill

1. A gospels-only Christian has no risk at all in the pre-trib pre-mill rapture LDE – he will find out all about it in heaven.

2. A gospel-reading Christian who ignores all the rest of the Bible – also has no risk if the mid-trib pre-mill Baptist view is correct and he does not know about it.

3. A gospel-reading Christian who ignores all the rest of the Bible – also has no risk if the post-trib pre-mill Baptist view is correct and he does not know about it until he gets to the 2nd coming.


Catholic

1. A gospel-only reading Christian who ignores the rest of the Bible – also has no risk if the Catholic Amillennial view is correct and he does not know about it until the 2nd coming

a. He/she simply wakes up one day and finds that the Catholics have turned the Earth into a wonderful paradise and Christ is just now showing up … what a joy… no risk.

As far as I know the Presbyterian and Methodist views fit into one of those listed above so am not repeating this for those groups.

Any others?

=================================

BY CONTRAST - take every warning in scripture during the past - was there ever an example where God gave a warning about what was about to happen and ignoring that warning ended up with a "so what?" that was of the form "no added risk, no difference".???

Adam and Eve were warned -- they ignored it... they suffered the consequence

Noah gave his last day events message and people ignored him. they suffered the consequences.

John the baptizer gave his present-truth message and warning -- the people ignored him ... they suffered the consequences.

But most views so popular today -- fit the "so what" model where it simply does not matter if they are right or not in what they predict.

Are there exceptions to this rule other than in the case of the SDA view of Last Day events?

Second Coming Visions in Revelation:


Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.



He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.



The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.



The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.



He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and the greatest earthquake in history is found in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial.



He comes on a horse in chapter 19.



He comes with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1.
(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)



The only way to properly interpret the book is through the principle of "Recapitulation".

.

 

[BobRyan]

Second Coming Visions in Revelation:
Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.

He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.

The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.

The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.

He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and the greatest earthquake in history is found in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial.

He comes on a horse in chapter 19.

He comes with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1.
(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)

ok - A few questions related to the OP then.

1. Do you agree that in the scenarios you give above - no human has control over what God does at the end of time - coming to take the saints and destroy the wicked... no matter how He does it.?
2. Do you agree that "not knowing" ahead of time each thing God will do - does not change what He will do?
3. Do you agree that accepting Christ as your savior - the Christ of the Gospels - and being born-again, justified walking in the Spirit - is the right thing for us to do?

What then is "the risk" of not knowing the scenario you describe ahead of time for the one who is a Christian?

The only way to properly interpret the book is through the principle of "Recapitulation".

.

agreed.

 

[BobRyan]

I have updated the OP with the questions in my last post - I hope this makes the point "more clear" for this thread.

 

[JulieB67]

Hosea 4: 6 "My People are destroyed for lack of knowledge; because thou hast rejected knowledge: I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to Me seeing thou hast forgotten the law of they God, I will also forget thy children."

This is just as true today than it ever was. There's more in the OT about "The Lord's Day" than in the NT. Including the warnings.

Both Christ and Paul give out warnings to not be deceived by any means concerning what must happen before his return. This is serious. Someone who has even read the gospels would know that Christ has warned them about how the tribulation is going down. And Paul says there will be a "falling away"-this is apostasy. How would a Christian that only read the "gospels" know that?

Paul also says in Esph 6 that we must have the full armour on to be able to stand in that "evil day"

Part of that is the sword of spirit which is the word of God

Ephesians 6:17 "And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

And you can't just pick and choose what you want to read. You wouldn't read any other book that way so why would a so called Christian not "want" to read God's entire letter to them? Christ would quote the OT and say "haven't you read?" He expected them to know what he was talking about.

And it's God that sends the strong delusion in the end times. As God said, "my" people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.

II Thessalonians 2:10 "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth,"

The truth is God's word and that includes the warnings from Christ and Paul.

II Thessalonians 2:12 "That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

If someone doesn't heed the warnings, and these are just a few, then they are in danger of falling away.

In reading the seals in Revelation,("come and see" means we are to know these) the very first seal is about a rider on a white horse with one crown given to him and he has a bow (toxon, simplest fabric) and he sets out to conquer. This is not Christ, but he will play at being Christ. Anti in the Greek means "instead of". He will be here instead of Christ. This is why Christ says he comes at an hour that most do not expect. That's because many Christians today expect the true Christ first.

This fits with Christ and Paul's teaching and warnings. And since it's God that sends the delusion, people unarmed (the word of God) are in danger of falling away. If it wasn't so serious, Christ and Paul would not give out the warnings. And if you hadn't read Paul's teachings on the subject, you wouldn't even know about his very urgent warning.

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

He wrote this second letter because his first one had confused the Thessalonians and they thought Christ could come back at any time. So he wrote the second and warned them to not be deceived by "any means". So not being deceived is very important in the end times. I just can't see a "so what" scenario fitting into that. Quite the opposite. Christ and Paul did not have a "so what" attitude.


The falling away is for "Christians" because unbelievers have nothing to fall away from. So I would say that's the ultimate risk of not knowing the word of God.

Edited to add -I think Christ's teachings in the gospels surrounding the end of this world age and his return are pretty straight forward as is Paul's teachings. If you have those down, you can go from there and always seek God in truth and prayer. I also believe the entire Bible is relevent, old and new. You'll never understand the ending if you don't know the beginning.

I think Christians who are free today to read the Bible will have no excuse. (unless God has put the spirit of slumber on them) My one thing though, is I feel sorry for the ones that don't have access in certain countries, etc where they don't have those freedoms and where Christians are constantly being persecuted for their beliefs. But if they are supposed to know the truth of God's word at this time he can make it happen, I believe that.

 

[Timtofly]

So the task is to find at least one end time scenario that rises above the "So what? There is no risk to me if I ignore that truth even if it is so"

That is the point. Death is the only thing that can happen that is, "so what if it does?". All other scenarios are pleasing to carnal flesh.

In Christ this flesh means nothing. So what if it dies? Philippians 1:21

 

[BABerean2]

3. Do you agree that accepting Christ as your savior - the Christ of the Gospels - and being born-again, justified walking in the Spirit - is the right thing for us to do?

What then is "the risk" of not knowing the scenario you describe ahead of time for the one who is a Christian?

Absolutely! Jesus told Nicodemus nobody gets into the kingdom of God without being "born again" of the Spirit of God. See Romans 8:9 for the proof.

The scriptures tell us there will eventually be a great deception that comes upon the whole world in an effort to bring about a one world government.
It will also bring tremendous persecution of the Church.
We should be prepared for this battle during every generation.

We are to be "Souldiers" in this battle.

.

 

[BobRyan]

Absolutely! Jesus told Nicodemus nobody gets into the kingdom of God without being "born again" of the Spirit of God. See Romans 8:9 for the proof.

True. So in the OP we are talking about someone who has done that.