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Does todays Isreal have the backing of god and bible prophesy as a sign of the end??

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by celtic_crusader, Jun 10, 2002.

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  1. celtic_crusader

    celtic_crusader Crusading Against Jihad

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    THUNDER,
    Every one thinks diffrently bro , don`t leave , I have some thing I want to ask you and talk about.

    let me take a good look at these scriptures because I most definatly believe that the bible pradicts a second return besides the one from babylon and I realy believe we are on to some thing importanthear. stand and when you have stood , "stand your ground mate".
    I`ll get back to you about these things.

    Hi Patmosman_sga ,
    Nice speach ;) :p

    what do ya think of my first post mate , with the scriptures from Isaiah and Romans???

    Do you have anything to say on that???
     
  2. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hey celtic,
    Why do you think the ten tribes of Israel are extinct?? Do you think God would break His Promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?? Those are very strong words. Look at these scriptures.

    Psalm 105: 8-10 - "He remembers His covenant forever, the word He commanded, for a thousand generations, the covenant He made with Abraham, the oath He swore to Isaac. He confirmed it to (Jacob) as a decree, to (Israel) as an everlasting covenant: "To you I will give the land of Canaan as the portion you will inherit."

    Chew on that for a while!!!
     
  3. celtic_crusader

    celtic_crusader Crusading Against Jihad

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    :D :D I`m still chewing on Isaiah 27 , what , ya want me to choke , ;) :p

    I supose I look at it like this THUNDER, history proves that in 722 bc the nation of Isreal was destroyed and the inhabitance were spread into the intire world. these 10 tribes didn`t keep any type of culture or religion to keep themselves seperate from those around them as the Jews did in both Babylonian and roman captivity and excile.

    The fact is THUNDER , they have disapeared as a result of interbreading all around the world to the point were they have no link to Hebrew religion or blood.

    That is not to say that God doesn`t fullfill what he said. for one , the Nation of Isreal is a Nation again under the name of Isreal and that hasn`t happened for 2722 yrs.

    The promise was that through Isreal and on to Judah was the seed that would bring the massiah. We are Isreal through Jesus as It means Gods chosen and through christ we are classed as Isrealites but I don`t think there is a single individual alive today that could prove that he was from one of these lost tribes THUNDER considering they have not exicted for 2700 yrs mate.

    I realy don`t understand you on this thunder , can I ask you if you have ever met a true Isrealite from these 10 tribes?? honestly mate , have you even , ever heard of one individual that could proove his blood was from an isrealite line beyond 2700 that was besides the jews and benjiminites.

    just some thaughts there THUNDER , maybe you could show me how they are not extinct??

    as for Isaiah 27 , well ,very interesting hey :yum:

    I will get back to ya on it.

    Celtic.
     
  4. Patmosman_sga

    Patmosman_sga Member

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    If by “all Israel," Paul is referring to the descendants of Abraham according to the flesh, then you might have a point. But the full context indicates that Paul’s emphasis is not on some future restoration of physical Israel, but upon the present work God is accomplishing by his grace through the power of the Holy Spirit among all those who are being saved in Christ.

    Paul thus abolishes any claim which “Israel after the flesh” might have to being God’s chosen people. For even those saved under the Old Covenant were not saved by following the law, but by grace through faith.

    What, then, are we to make of “All Israel will be saved?” If “no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly” and “not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,” then the “Israel” out of which “all” will be saved is not a “flesh and blood” entity. As Paul says elsewhere, “I tell you this, brothers, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Corinthians 15:50a). “All Israel,” then is the totality of God’s people saved not by observing the law (Old Covenant), but by grace (New Covenant). This salvation is open to all, whether Gentile or Jew. For Paul, while serving as “an apostle to the Gentiles,” still holds out some hope that he might “save some” of his fellow Jews (Romans 11:13-14).
     
  5. celtic_crusader

    celtic_crusader Crusading Against Jihad

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    I realy enjoyed reading your post mate , I can totaly see were you are coming from and agree with your whole concept of who Isreal is but there are a couple of things that have made me wonder lately.

    I would love to hear your opinion on this Pat.

    Were it says in romans 11 that blindness in part has happened to Isreal (the nation not the church) until the fullness of the Gentiles come in.

    What do you believe this means Pat???

    also Isaiah ch 11 seems to be talking about todays time and I am not a futurist but rather a historian and it appears to me that Isaiah ch 11 wasn`t talking about the babylonian captivity.

    I definatly see what is happening in Isreal today is some saught of ensign from god to show us that he is still dealing with Isreal as his people.

    I find the modern Nation of Isreal facsinatingly miraculous.

    Hey Pat , when I read this part of your post;

    :D I thaught you were saying you were from the tribe of benjamin :D I was excited :bow: :D

    Just kiding mate ;)

    Celtic
     
  6. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    I see too much tickling of itching ears here, but the righteous shall live by faith. There are many things that will never be understood by the human mind, but in the spirit one begins to see. Even Nicodemus couldn't see the concept of being born again, because he was only seeing with his natural mind. Does that mean there is no such thing as being born spiritual?? Or must we re-enter our mothers womb?? I guess I will just watch you two tickle each others ears for now, or should I say move on to better things.
     
  7. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    One more thing before I go celtic,
    I think it would be wise to read Ezekiel 36 & 37.
     
  8. celtic_crusader

    celtic_crusader Crusading Against Jihad

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    Hi THUNDER,
    Did you notice in verse 13 , it apearse to look like the Assyrian conquest because it looks like it could be that the trumpet blown was posably sirus when he allowed the Jews to come home after conquering Babylon.

    The Israelites of the 10 lost tribes from Assyrian conquest were scattered but after Syrus made his decree to allow all the Jews and Isrealites to return to Judea.
    they came from there main captivity areas which were as v 13 says , from Assyria to Egypts , the lost tribes of Isreal had been in exile for around 150 yrs and they came back at that time from Assyria to Egypt , one by one.

    I believe it is most likely that this is the first exile of Isreal by Assyria and the jews were conquered by babylon .

    I can`t realy see were it would make a shore point of what might be happening today but it does look like it in some parts. the thing is , it isn`t the first time Isreal has been destroyed , exiled and then returned.

    Just some thaughts there bro , what do you think??

    Celtic :)
     
  9. celtic_crusader

    celtic_crusader Crusading Against Jihad

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    OK THUNDER , I will do that.

    I remember the conversation we had on your thread about Ezekiel 38 still. Do you remember that???
     
  10. Patmosman_sga

    Patmosman_sga Member

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    ". . .until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in" refers to the time in which the Gentiles (that is, ethnos, "nations") would be ready, according to God's divinely established timetable, to be grafted into the covenant. As this "grafting in" began with the proclamation of the Gospel to the Gentiles shortly after Jesus' death and resurrection, it can be concluded that Paul is referring to a situation of immediate concern to himself and his original readers (who were Gentiles). Nevertheless, the gathering of the scattered elect from the nations continues to this day and shall continue until the full consummation of the ages. At that time, "all Israel" will be seen to be, in fact, what its true citizens have known it to be all along: the full number of God's chosen people from every nation, tribe, people and tongue who are saved not by works of the law (Old Covenant) but by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ (New Covenant).

    Isaiah 11 is a Messianic prophecy, fulfilled at Christ's first advent and continuing through the consummation of history.

    God is still dealing with "Israel after the flesh," but only in the sense of judging and punishing them for their continued rejection of Christ. In reality, there is no such thing as a pure, ethnic Jew anymore. The "Jews" inhabiting the modern-day state of "Israel" are of predominantly European descent. Some may have a tiny trace of actual Abrahamic blood, but none of them can claim a consistent, unbroken genealogical connection to Abraham.

    I find it fascinatingly irrelevant. Christ is the true heir of the promises made to Old Testament Israel. No temporal, political entity can lay any claim to that which is rightfully the inheritance of the eternal King of kings of Lord of lords.
     
  11. Yauming

    Yauming Member

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    I think the confusion here is over the idea of "chosen people".

    The Israelites were God's chosen people in the OT thru God's promises to Abraham. The outcome of the promise was Jesus who was the fulfilment of the law and the promises.

    So does that mean that the Israelites, the biological descendents of Abraham, are irrelevent? IMHO, no.

    There are a number of promises and statements in the Bible which do promise and point that the biological descendents of Abraham have a special place in the future. I and many other people have pointed the verses out - so I won't bother citing them here - check out the past posts.

    Anyhow, no matter how many times you try to dismiss them, the Jews still stick it out and always come back. Its amazing. No other small nation group has survived so many acts of destruction in its 4000 year history. If you can find another group, please let us know. IMHO its an act of God :)
     
  12. Patmosman_sga

    Patmosman_sga Member

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    Paul, that "Hebrew of Hebrews," disagrees with you.

    Romans 9:6-8 (ESV)
    But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, [7] and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." [8] This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
     
  13. celtic_crusader

    celtic_crusader Crusading Against Jihad

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    I would love to stay and post but I gotta go.

    very interesting stuff. I will reply later.

    Hey Yauming, what does IMHO mean?? :)
     
  14. Yauming

    Yauming Member

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    Sorry, but the context of the passage is dealing with the issue of spiritual salvation.

    Only spiritual descendents of Abraham go to Heaven.

    That does not mean that the biological descendents of Abraham are forgotten by God.
     
  15. Yauming

    Yauming Member

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    IMHO - In my humble opinion.

    AFAIK - as far as I know

    IIRC - If I remember correctly

    ROTFL - roll over the floor with laughter (I hate this)

    LOL - lots of laughter

    :^) a smile

    <^.^> - a kat
     
  16. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hello Pat,
    Through Isaac came Jacob, and God later changed Jacobs name to Israel. Abraham also had a illigitimate son named Ishmail. This means that the promise came through Isaac and not Ishmail. Since Jacob came from Isaac, then Jacob (Israel) is the nation of promise. They inherited the promised land. Ishmail was also promised to become a great nation, and the result was Islam. The Word of God (Christ) came through Israel as promised. The Jews are the people of promise, but not only the Jews. The gentiles that put the faith in Christ are also grafted in, or adopted. This does qualify christians as descendants of Abraham. But you are sadly mistaken about Christians being the new Israel. There is a huge difference between being a descendant of Abraham and an Israelite. That's why they call us christians and not Jews.

    And Patmosman, aren't you the same fellow that claimed to have already been raptured?? Who are you trying to mislead here?? Also, I read your profile. Are you really a Pastor of a Methodist Church?? If so, how many are you leading in that church?? And do they actually believe that you were raptured?? I guess that's enough questions for now, huh??
     
  17. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    #9


    quote:
    Originally posted by Patmosman_sga
    With your vivid imagination, you should be a novelist. You might give Tim LaHaye a run for his money.

    I've already been raptured, so I probably wouldn't buy your book. But the Christian fiction market could always use some healthy competition!
    -------------------------------------------------------------
    Here you go Patmosman,
    I pasted it here for you. It appears that you definitely said that you were already raptured. Now if you can just tell us about it. I just gotta hear this one!!! And you think I have an imagination?? :scratch:
     
  18. Patmosman_sga

    Patmosman_sga Member

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    If you had read further on that particular thread, you would have found that I have already answered your question. But since you asked it again, I will simply paste in the answer I gave previously.

     
  19. Yauming

    Yauming Member

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    Hello,

    I am not arguing for that theology, Dispensationalism or whatever.

    I am basing my arguments on a literal reading of the book of Romans. Paul did at one point in the book - say that the Gospel was meant first for the Jews (and I'm pretty sure he meant the biological Jews) and then for the Gentile (non-Jew). For whatever reason, God wants to first and foremost bless the biological children of Israel. God knows why???? Does this mean that this gives them the license to do anything -absolutely not. Does this mean that they do not *need* to come under the Lordship of Jesus? Of COURSE NOT.

    Argue as much as you want. I don't think we are ever going to see eye to eye on this issue.

    Its 2am here. I'm going to sleep.

    Cheers,

    YM
     
  20. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    QUOTE : From Patmosman,
    quote:
    Not a day goes by that I don't have to endure some form of "tribulation," so I find even the suggestion that Christians will "escape the tribulation" to be absurd on its face. Try selling that "pre-trib" stuff to Christians in the Sudan and see how many blank stares you'll get.

    Likewise, however, not a day goes by that I don't experience, in one degree or another, being "caught up" into a very real experience of the presence of Christ, so I find even the suggestion that his coming again is not imminent to be equally absurd. To live as a Christian in the midst of this crooked and perverse generation is to live in a constant state of being "caught up" in the mysterious reality that is Christ crucified and risen, showing forth his presence through word and deed, being ready for his appearing at any moment while, at the same time, being fully prepared for a long and often painful journey to the Promised Land.
    -------------------------------------------------------------- Patmosman,
    I've heard it said that there is no teaching on end time prophecy in the Methodist Church. Your view makes that very clear. It is also clear that you have no earthly idea what the rapture really is. It's not about being "caught up" in the daily experience of Christ. I don't have to sell anything to the brothers in Sudan, whether or not they understand the rapture. Jesus never guaranteed that everyone would be raptured. Only those that are alive when the Bridegroom calls will not have to experience death. But I also have some good news for the ones that passed on before this event. Here it is, are you ready??

    The dead in Christ will rise first, and then we who are alive at that very moment will rise and we will all be changed. You can read all about it in 1 Corr.15:51-52. You can also receive this truth or reject it. But if you choose to reject it, that will in no way prove that it won't happen, it will only prove your lack of faith in it.
     
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