Does this verse refute pre-trib rapture?

[dfw69]

We have inherited the corruptible /[decaying] mortal body that Adam have after the fall.

If Adam had not fallen he and Eve would have lived eternally [Genesis 3:17]...because before the fall Adam and Eve shared the Shekinah Glory of God in an incorruptible body.

Genesis 3
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

No where in scripture proves Adam and Eve had the shekinah glory of god before the fall ... the lord may have walked with them in the garden but thats it... what kept them alive forever was a good diet of the tree of life and perhaps the water of life ... that they needed food and water to remain alive

Our changing will be that we [the saved] will share the Shekinah Glory of God back again in an incorruptible body ....like Adam once had before the fall.

What proof do you have that Adam had shekinah glory? Where does it say that?

You seem to forget that we have a immortal SOUL/Spirit inside our mortal body [Genesis 2:7]
Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul

The spirit/soul of a believer goes to Heaven when a believer die ...no rapture needed.

True but just as Jesus made a way to the father for our sprits and souls to enter heaven ... it should not be hard to believe he also is able to change our mortal fleshly earthly bodies to recieve new immortal spiritual heavenly bodies so that we may live with god in heaven and inherit the kingdom of god which is in heaven which is what Paul clearly teaches

Jesus will bring back the SOULS of the dead believers who are in Heaven with Him (SLEEP IN JESUS CHRIST) to be RESURRECTED on the Earth UNTO HIS COMING.
1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Amen Riberra the dead will arise again to receive the promise to live with Jesus and the father that they may obtain the glory Jesus has obtained and enter into heaven where the father home is ....

Jesus body arose and was changed and he rose up to heaven and is seated at the right hand of God... if the son of man has obtained all this for his work on earth ... shall not we obtain as well?

We are the body of Christ now on earth ... just as his body is in heaven ... we too who are the body of Christ shall enter into heaven just as Jesus did ... it's a promise

... I know the way to the father.... do you? Jesus is the way the truth and the life no man comes to the father to see him face to face but by faith in Jesus

When Jesus will come back to Earth (Second coming)He will bring the immortal SOULS of the believers who are in Heaven with Him to be resurrected on the Earth in a incorruptible body....

We will be a new creation... mortal turn into a son of god ..immortal with glory and power changed to be like Jesus .. how he is now ... glorious ... that's what Paul teaches we partake in the suffering for Jesus we will partake in his blessings for all the promises are yes and amen

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up...to meet Jesus in the clouds in the AIR.

The angels will do the lift up and gathering [CAUGHT UP]of the believers still alive and remain UNTO the Coming of Jesus to meet Jesus IN THE AIR [NOT IN HEAVEN]

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I don't believe we will be caught up or raptured .. there will be a gathering in the air ...but not caught up with the help of Angels.... no where does it say Angels will lift us up to be taken to Jerusalem


I believe it will be as Jesus went up ... on his own power ... so will we ... of our own power because of our change to become a new creation from mortal to immortal from flesh to spirit from weakness to power from shame to glory ... that is our promise to live with god in his house with many rooms .. try as you may to deceive me .. but I know the way to the father.... and I won't let your cunning ways fool me ... your home is earth .. earth is not my home

If you truly love Jesus then you would want to join us to meet the father in heaven...that should be your desires to behold the father face to face

 

[dfw69]

Yes, that is how it is now. We have plenty of false teachers and the worst, but most successful teaching they have is the rapture to heaven idea.

We do not yet have false teachers and false prophets saying "messiah is here" "come out to meet him" "move to Jerusalem to the places god has prepared for you " ... that is yet to come keras for false messiah will come and Israel will recieve another messiah who comes in his own name

The promises to recieve a heavenly body to become a new creation to become the firstborn to obtain the promises to become the sons of god to behold the father face to face and live eternaly in his presence in his home called new Jerusalem in heaven where Jesus is now is as plain as day .... it is false teachings keras to believe otherwise my friend

Then you disagree with scripture. Revelation 21:5-7 THAT is when God will make everything new and give the overcomers the gift of the spring of life.

No I believe it... but it's general talk...we are first fruits of the promises cause we believe... and we will recieve them first if we remain in the faith and not fall away to follow another gospel which many already have done so

This transportation of those Christians who remain alive when Jesus Returns, will be like when Philip was transported. Acts 8:39

Lol nice try.... yes I know God is able to transport like Philip... but I disagree... it will be more like John who went to heaven when heaven opened and a voice from heaven said come up and he was in the spirit world and he behold the father and the throne and many other things and he could not tell if he was in the body or not ... but in our case we will have been changed to become as the Angels...we are a new creation because we were once mortal but became the sons of god ...amen

Actually it will be more like when Jesus went up ... Jesus went up to the father of his own power....so will we . No need for Angels to carry Jesus up.. no need for us to be carried up by Angels

One of the central teaching of the New Testament is a man obtaining the promises of god ... Jesus obtained all the promises of God and was seated in heaven... the same will happen to the body of Christ . If you remain true to his teachings to love one another and trust him for your salvation you too will partake in it even if you don't believe in the "gathering to heaven" I wish you well my friend

Hopefully you and I can have a glass of wine in the heavenly kingdom and laugh about all this ..

 

[dfw69]

That is right.
Jesus will lift up in the air the resurrected believers and the believers still alive all over the World ....but once in the air the angels will caught them and transport them [fly ] over the continents to where Jesus will be at His Coming, which is over Jerusalem.

What if the gathering of saints in the air in fact do go to heaven....but the false teachers who are deliberately against Jesus will begin to lie and say "they have all arrived in Jerusalem" and begin to create a false messianic age?

That's a possibility...to cover up the event... though the first fruits are gone to heaven, the enemy will continue to be at work and be successful for a season

 

[dfw69]

Another possibility of a cover up story for the gathering of saints

They can kindle a great fire outside of Jerusalem call it Gehenna and say those gathered up were taken out of the world because they were tares and cast into Gehenna to fulfill scripture because they were sinners who would not conform back to the law .....for they say Jesus commanded to keep the commandments of god and to return to the temple worship and feast days and sabbath which the tares who were of all manor of evil sinners pagan heretics idol worshipers sorcerer false prophets and false teachers etc would not conformed ... therefore god cast them out of his kingdom forever....

That would be sad

 

[Straightshot]

Know this ..... being "caught up" means to be transformed to immortality .... a higher level of existence

If you understand this truth much of your confusion will end on the matter

There is no physical up or down involved .... up on one side of the earth is down on the other

A spiritual body is not affected by the material universe

 

[dfw69]

Know this ..... being "caught up" means to be transformed to immortality .... a higher level of existence

If you understand this truth much of your confusion will end on the matter

There is no physical up or down involved .... up on one side of the earth is down on the other

A spiritual body is not affected by the material universe

My argument is why give us a spiritual body from heaven..if heaven was not a possibility ... makes no sense

 

[dfw69]

Know this ..... being "caught up" means to be transformed to immortality .... a higher level of existence

If you understand this truth much of your confusion will end on the matter

There is no physical up or down involved .... up on one side of the earth is down on the other

A spiritual body is not affected by the material universe

So your saying that "caught up" should have been translated "transformed" instead ? Yeah that would have made more sense

 

[Straightshot]

The believer will be changed to immortality [1 Corinthians 15:51-58]

There will be no restrictions on position or mobility for the immortal

 

[dfw69]

The believer with be changed to immortality [1 Corinthians 15:51-58]

There will be no restrictions on position or mobility for the immortal

Sin and death and the law will not prevent us from being resurrected and changed because we have the victory in Jesus ... halleluyah

 

[Straightshot]

You have it brother !!! .... we will be transformed

And we do not know exactly what we will be like, but we know that when He appears to transform us, we will be like Him

 

[Riberra]

No where in scripture proves Adam and Eve had the shekinah glory of god before the fall ... the lord may have walked with them in the garden but thats it... what kept them alive forever was a good diet of the tree of life and perhaps the water of life ... that they needed food and water to remain alive

That will be the same pattern ...when New Jerusalem will come down on the Earth...the tree of life and the river of life are mentioned in....Revelation 22:1-2
Revelation 22
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

True but just as Jesus made a way to the father for our sprits and souls to enter heaven ... it should not be hard to believe he also is able to change our mortal fleshly earthly bodies to recieve new immortal spiritual heavenly bodies so that we may live with god in heaven and inherit the kingdom of god which is in heaven which is what Paul clearly teaches


Amen Riberra the dead will arise again to receive the promise to live with Jesus and the father that they may obtain the glory Jesus has obtained and enter into heaven where the father home is ....

Jesus body arose and was changed and he rose up to heaven and is seated at the right hand of God... if the son of man has obtained all this for his work on earth ... shall not we obtain as well?

I don't believe we will be caught up or raptured .. there will be a gathering in the air ...but not caught up with the help of Angels.... no where does it say Angels will lift us up to be taken to Jerusalem


I believe it will be as Jesus went up ... on his own power ... so will we ... of our own power because of our change to become a new creation from mortal to immortal from flesh to spirit from weakness to power from shame to glory ... that is our promise to live with god in his house with many rooms .. try as you may to deceive me .. but I know the way to the father.... and I won't let your cunning ways fool me ... your home is earth .. earth is not my home

Jesus have never been a ordinary man.
John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven [by his own power]except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.

We are the body of Christ now on earth ... just as his body is in heaven ... we too who are the body of Christ shall enter into heaven just as Jesus did ... it's a promise

... I know the way to the father.... do you? Jesus is the way the truth and the life no man comes to the father to see him face to face but by faith in Jesus

The Church will be resurrected and the believers alive will be changed UNTO THE COMING OF JESUS to reign with Jesus on the Earth.

Only our SOUL at our death goes to Heaven in the presence of God in Heaven waiting [as in a state of rest] for the resurrection.

We will be a new creation... mortal turn into a son of god ..immortal with glory and power changed to be like Jesus .. how he is now ... glorious ... that's what Paul teaches we partake in the suffering for Jesus we will partake in his blessings for all the promises are yes and amen

Revelation 22 tell us that like in the Garden of Eden the tree of life and the river of life will be also in New Jerusalem ... that speak a lot.

If you truly love Jesus then you would want to join us to meet the father in heaven...that should be your desires to behold the father face to face

Jesus promised that the believers WILL INHERIT THE EARTH.Not that we will reign in Heaven.

You don't seem interested to be resurrected to be part of the FIRST RESURRECTION to Reign with Jesus on the Earth during the millennium. Revelation 20:4-6
If you are not interested by that promise it could be possible that
Jesus can take that as you wish to be resurrected only at the Great White Throne Judgment 1,000 years later.
Revelation 20:7-15

 

[dfw69]

You have it brother !!! .... we will be transformed

And we do not know exactly what we will be like, but we know that when He appears to transform us, we will be like Him

Yes amen glory be to our messiah forever and ever

Thank you Jesus

 

[keras]

Hopefully you and I can have a glass of wine in the heavenly kingdom and laugh about all this ..

Zechariah 3:10 The Lord says: In that day, [the Day He removes the iniquity of the holy Land] you will invite each other to come and sit under your vines and fig trees.
NOT in heaven, but in the holy Land, on earth.

 

[dfw69]

That will be the same pattern ...when New Jerusalem will come down on the Earth...the tree of life and the river of life are mentioned in....Revelation 22:1-2
Revelation 22
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Yes Riberra when the heavenly city comes down to earth it will be heaven on earth .... but that is still a long time away... the next event for the church is to fulfill the promises to behold the father and live with them in heaven... I'm sure many denied and perhaps still do that Elijah went to heaven... yet he is there and remains there until the appointed time...

Jesus have never been a ordinary man.
John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven [by his own power]except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.

He was a man but also the son of god and is god in the flesh... yes he came from heaven.... but don't you see the significance of his bodily presence?... how a man was able to make a way back to the father and give us all the blessings of his labors?.... now many can ascend to heaven just as he did ... he made the way he is the way brother Riberra....

Jesus has traded status with us.... he became man to redeem man from the law and he also nailed the law to the cross taking away our curse... he was the son of god and he will give us his status and took on our status

The Church will be resurrected and the believers alive will be changed UNTO THE COMING OF JESUS to reign with Jesus on the Earth.

Only our SOUL at our death goes to Heaven in the presence of God in Heaven waiting [as in a state of rest] for the resurrection.



Revelation 22 tell us that like in the Garden of Eden the tree of life and the river of life will be also in New Jerusalem ... that speak a lot.


Jesus promised that the believers WILL INHERIT THE EARTH.Not that we will reign in Heaven.

You don't seem interested to be resurrected to be part of the FIRST RESURRECTION to Reign with Jesus on the Earth during the millennium. Revelation 20:4-6
If you are not interested by that promise it could be possible that
Jesus can take that as you wish to be resurrected only at the Great White Throne Judgment 1,000 years later.
Revelation 20:7-15

I know after the millennium the kingdom of heaven comes to earth... but for now our next appointment is to be firstfruits to behold the father for our faith in Jesus

Peace

 

[dfw69]

Zechariah 3:10 The Lord says: In that day, [the Day He removes the iniquity of the holy Land] you will invite each other to come and sit under your vines and fig trees.
NOT in heaven, but in the holy Land, on earth.

But before the kingdom of heaven comes to earth we can sit in the kingdom of heaven to behold the father which is our next appointed time for the church ... the world will have to wait a lot longer to behold the kingdom of heaven on earth ...for they will have rejected Christ and returned to the law of Moses and so the curse will remain on earth till people cast off the law and accept Jesus righteousness... which is the end result of Jesus work

 

[Riberra]

Yes Riberra when the heavenly city comes down to earth it will be heaven on earth .... but that is still a long time away... the next event for the church is to fulfill the promises to behold the father and live with them in heaven.../

When Jesus will come that will be to establish his millennium Kingdom on the Earth in preparation for the Kingdom of His father who will come down on the Earth Revelation 21 Revelation 22

...our promise is to live with god in his house with many rooms .. try as you may to deceive me .. but I know the way to the father.... and I won't let your cunning ways fool me ... your home is earth .. earth is not my home

Your home is Earth you have been born on the Earth not in Heaven....

Jesus is God.... you will never become like God even after the resurrection in your immortal body.

God don't need us to reign in Heaven.

That is New Jerusalem who will come down to Earth ...Revelation 21

You will have to assist Jesus here on the Earth during the millennium,that you like it or not.....

 

[keras]

But before the kingdom of heaven comes to earth we can sit in the kingdom of heaven to behold the father which is our next appointed time for the church ... the world will have to wait a lot longer to behold the kingdom of heaven on earth ...for they will have rejected Christ and returned to the law of Moses and so the curse will remain on earth till people cast off the law and accept Jesus righteousness... which is the end result of Jesus work

You need to read and understand what the prophets actually wrote.
Your unsupported claims have no credibility.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Another Lazarus]

"I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one." -John 17:15 (ESV)

Jesus was speaking about the Apostles, not the end time church.


May Jesus bless you all HalleluYAH