Does this verse refute pre-trib rapture?

[dfw69]

There must be a good reason explaining why Ezekiel 13:20 have been modified in the New Bible Versions....That is because it expose the lies of the false prophets and false teachers.

The NewKJV have replaced SOULS in Ezekiel 13:20 by Birds....
Ezekiel 13:20 NKJV
20 “‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against your magic charms with which you ensnare people like birds and I will tear them from your arms; I will set free the people that you ensnare like birds.

When god sets free the birds that the magic charmers ensnared ... will the birds not fly away????

Ezekiel 13:20 KJV
20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

This verse is very clear; God is against those that teach His people their souls will be saved by flying away (rapture)! In the following verses, it's explained that the wicked are fortified by this lie . Teaching rapture to the sinner, the sinner won't then repent and they become brazen in their sin because they've been taught all they must do is believe and Jesus will fly them away to heaven, which is contrary to God's word. Jesus taught, "repent or perish" Luke 13:3, 5. Scripture teaches us to preach repentance for the remission of sin in Luke 24:47, Mark 6:12, Acts 2:38 and 2 Peter 3:9.

Flying could refer to puffed up pride that leads to judging and condemning sinners to death ... which many are ready to do in their self righteousness

God himself says we will soar on wings as eagles ... flying is not unbiblical

Paul said we will be gathered up in the clouds to meet the lord in the air ... sounds like flying to me...we are gathered up just after the changed from earthly body to a heavenly body... why give us a heavenly body if heaven is not an option? Why give us a spiritual body if the spirit world is not possible?

 

[Straightshot]

Ezekiel
13:20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

These were of Israel who practiced divination and were telling lies about Israel's soon to come destruction by Babylon .... telling that this was not going to happen

There is no connection with the Lord's pre-tribulation call for His own still pending

Several false teachers like Arnold Murray of the Sheppard's Chapel use this passage to debunk the Lord's call by making a joke out of it .... the "flyaway" ruse

Murray is grossly antisemitic, hates Israel, and calls the Lord's pre-tribulation call a "lie" of the devil

 

[dfw69]

The only reason for Satan deception of denying the rapture is to deceive and lead all to receive the coming false messiah who will lead all back to the law where judgement and condemnation begins again and commit many serious violations against Jesus Christ teachings to judge not and condemn not

All who do so do not walk in Christ...they hate their brothers as Cain ... you know them by their fruits ....

Anyone willing to judge and condemn in the name of the law is a deciever and an antichrist

 

[Straightshot]

True .... Satan is interested in deceiving people into the coming tribulation by spreading the lie that Jesus Christ will not make good on His promise [Revelation 3;10]

 

[keras]

The only reason for Satan deception of denying the rapture is to deceive and lead all to receive the coming false messiah who will lead all back to the law where judgement and condemnation begins again and commit many serious violations against Jesus Christ teachings to judge not and condemn not

All who do so do not walk in Christ...they hate their brothers as Cain ... you know them by their fruits ....

Anyone willing to judge and condemn in the name of the law is a deciever and an antichrist

YOU have just judged and condemned everyone who speaks against the false 'rapture to heaven' theory.
Teaching and promoting that unBiblical idea, as you do, places you in judgement as a false teacher. 2 Timothy 4:3-4
You show how you don't know much about the end times, as there is no false Messiah who will lead anyone back to the Mosaic Law. The Anti-Christ, referred to as the 'beast' in Rev. 13, will lead the One World Govt. We Christians, people from every race and language, will live in all of the holy Land. Jeremiah 23:3, Isaiah 49:8

 

[dfw69]

True .... Satan is interested in deceiving people into the coming tribulation by spreading the lie that Jesus Christ will not make good on His promise [Revelation 3;10]

I believe it goes much deeper than that ... the false messianic age will last for some time ...

 

[Straightshot]

"YOU have just judged and condemned everyone who speaks against the false 'rapture to heaven' theory."

Not true .... it is the Lord who judges on the matter [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:15-19]

 

[dfw69]

YOU have just judged and condemned everyone who speaks against the false 'rapture to heaven' theory.
Teaching and promoting that unBiblical idea, as you do, places you in judgement as a false teacher. 2 Timothy 4:3-4
You show how you don't know much about the end times, as there is no false Messiah who will lead anyone back to the Mosaic Law. The Anti-Christ, referred to as the 'beast' in Rev. 13, will lead the One World Govt. We Christians, people from every race and language, will live in all of the holy Land. Jeremiah 23:3, Isaiah 49:8

No I did not ... i never said believing or not believing in the rapture is a condition for salvation... faith in Christ and obedience to his teachings is a condition...you know me better than that ...


I said Satan is leads us to believe in a false messianic age .. Jesus said do not go after them when they will say behold here is Christ

I said all who are willing to judge and condemn in the name of the law are antichrist .. Keras

One world government is a worldly teaching to pave the way for a false messianic age

 

[keras]

One world government is a worldly teaching to pave the way for a false messianic age

There will be a One World Govt, Daniel 7:23 and Revelation 17:7-15, over everyone whose names are not written in the Book of life. But we Christian believers, won't be a part of the OWG, living as we will in all of the holy Land. We will elect our own leaders, Jeremiah 30:21, Hosea 1:11, and our destiny is to fulfil God's plan to have a people who will be His witnesses and a light to the nations. Isaiah 43:10-12, Isaiah 49:8
Read my thread, 'The Redemption of the Nazarenes' and understand the truth of God's plans for His people.

 

[keras]

YOU have just judged and condemned everyone who speaks against the false 'rapture to heaven' theory."

Not true .... it is the Lord who judges on the matter [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:15-19]

Thanks, SS, you have tempered your attitude at last.
A while ago, you were happy to send anyone who disagreed with you to hell.

 

[dfw69]

There will be a One World Govt, Daniel 7:23 and Revelation 17:7-15, over everyone whose names are not written in the Book of life. But we Christian believers, won't be a part of the OWG, living as we will in all of the holy Land. We will elect our own leaders, Jeremiah 30:21, Hosea 1:11, and our destiny is to fulfil God's plan to have a people who will be His witnesses and a light to the nations. Isaiah 43:10-12, Isaiah 49:8
Read my thread, 'The Redemption of the Nazarenes' and understand the truth of God's plans for His people.

As I said if there be a one world gov it's to pave the way for a false messianic age... if you go move to Jerusalem before the time you will only experience persecution and death because if you are a true believer in Christ then you will deny the false Christ and accept death over his rule or you will deny Jesus and accept Judaism thus end up falling away from the faith




If the rapture is false keras why is god gonna give us heavenly bodies?

 

[keras]

As I said if there be a one world gov it's to pave the way for a false messianic age... if you go move to Jerusalem before the time you will only experience persecution and death because if you are a true believer in Christ then you will deny the false Christ and accept death over his rule or you will deny Jesus and accept Judaism thus end up falling away from the faith

There is no false Messianic age. Before Jesus Returns, there will be a short time when the Anti-Christ will rule in Jerusalem. Zechariah 14:1-2. But all those who kept faithful during the testing times ahead, will be taken to a place of safety. Rev 12. Jesus will send His angels to bring them back to where His is. Matthew 24:31, 1 Thess 4:15-17

If the rapture is false keras why is god gonna give us heavenly bodies?

1 Corinthians 15:50-54 does not and cannot happen until after the Millennium. Revelation 21:5-7 makes that clear.

 

[Riberra]

The proof you should accept is the fact that 1 Corinthians 15 teach that we will be changed to receive heavenly bodies... why give us heavenly bodies if our home is earth?... all we need is flesh and blood to live on earth... we have that already ... the only reason for heavenly bodies is to live in gods presence in heaven...understand?

Firstly--- if you read 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 correctly you will notice that we go nowhere after we will receive our incorruptible body

Secondly--- We will not receive a heavenly body, but the same body that Adam have before the fall ....a immortal incorruptible body.

The proof ...
1 Corinthians 15:53-54

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

We know that Adam have lived more than 900 years in his flesh and blood body after the fall....
AND Genesis 3:22-24 tell us that even after the fall if Adam was able to take of the tree of life he would have been able to live eternally

If you do some Bible reading you will be able to find the symbolism of the tree of life.[what the tree of life represent]

If the rapture is false why is god gonna give us heavenly bodies?

The proof that we will not receive heavenly bodies (like angels)is that this is the angels who will lift us up and gather us to meet Jesus in the air.

Which demonstrate that we will not be able to fly by our own power like angels when will have received our new incorruptible body.

 

[dfw69]

We will not receive a heavenly body, but the same body that Adam have before the fall ....a immortal incorruptible body.

thats not what Paul teaches Riberra Paul said we already have Adams body .. then he says we will have Jesus body for he is from heaven... we will have a heavenly body ..a spiritual body ...an incorruptible body a changed body ...an immortal body ...that is the mystery... because flesh and blood (the body of Adam the mortal body) cannot inherit the kingdom of god ...

Adam before his fall was still mortal ... it was the tree of life that kept him alive.. the tree was taken away but before and after the fall he was mortal

The spiritual body is sown in a mortal body but it will be raised immortal just as Jesus is immortal and glorified so will we have one day 1 Corinthians 15:43-44

A body that is imperishable , glory, power, immortal, eternal, spiritual , heavenly

1 Corinthians 15:48-49 there are those of earth and those of heaven we already have the earthly body and so we will one day have the heavenly body

The proof ...
1 Corinthians 15:53-54

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

We know that Adam have lived more than 900 years in his flesh and blood body after the fall....
AND Genesis 3:22-24 tell us that even after the fall if Adam was able to take of the tree of life he would have been able to live eternally

Yet Paul taught that Adam who was flesh and blood a mortal man cannot inherit the kingdom of god and must be changed into immortal spiritual body.. that is only made possible by the one from heaven who is able to clothe us with heavenly bodies....

The proof that we will not receive heavenly bodies (like angels)is that this is the angels who will lift us up and gather us to meet Jesus in the air.

Which demonstrate that we will not be able to fly by our own power like angels when will have received our new incorruptible

Mark 13:27 only says messenger will be send to gather his elect not fly up ...These elect are Israel that has been scattered from Jerusalem one last time....


In fact no where in the New Testament says what you just said that Angels will gather the church up to fly to Jerusalem

 

[dfw69]

Firstly--- if you read 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 correctly you will notice that we go nowhere after we will receive our incorruptible body

No but it's common knowledge that during the resurrection of the (dead in Christ) that they rise first then we which are alive are change to meet the lord in the air so that we may live with him and his father in his home ...a city called new Jerusalem which is in heaven

 

[dfw69]

There is no false Messianic age. Before Jesus Returns, there will be a short time when the Anti-Christ will rule in Jerusalem. Zechariah 14:1-2. But all those who kept faithful during the testing times ahead, will be taken to a place of safety. Rev 12. Jesus will send His angels to bring them back to where His is. Matthew 24:31, 1 Thess 4:15-17

Your wrong about no false messiahic age ... for people will say here is messiah and there will arise false Christ and false prophets to deceive the false messianic age has come... Jesus forewarned not to believe them nor go after them .... it's a trap

1 Corinthians 15:50-54 does not and cannot happen until after the Millennium. Revelation 21:5-7 makes that clear.

You have the transformation after the millennium? How convenient ... I have to disagree with you and only say will see keras ..

one day we will see where your heart is keras..if it be for Christ or Judaism... all will be revealed keras ... for your sakes I hope your heart is truly on Christ Jesus and you are not a deliberate deceiver ... but if you were a deciever then you really don't believe in Jesus anyway and do not believe he existed and are not afraid of his warnings nor judgements ...but only seek to further Judaism messiah... and hate Jesus and is an antichrist.. I hope you truly love Jesus and are not a deciever


But if you are deceived and believe Christ has come and you went to Jerusalem and realized that you were being fooled ... I hope you keep the faith and not fall away from Jesus even if it cost you your life

For god said he will resurrect you and you will still have a chance to be a part of the first resurrection ... if you find yourself fallen away ,repent and keep the faith for Jesus is our only hope for salvation...

Remember..never judge and condemn anyone by the law for in doing so you condemn yourself... that is, if you go to Jerusalem and found out you were in a false messianic age


Peace

 

[Riberra]

thats not what Paul teaches Riberra Paul said we already have Adams body ..

Adam before his fall was still mortal ... it was the tree of life that kept him alive.. the tree was taken away but before and after the fall he was mortal

We have inherited the corruptible /[decaying] mortal body that Adam have after the fall.

If Adam had not fallen he and Eve would have lived eternally [Genesis 3:17]...because before the fall Adam and Eve shared the Shekinah Glory of God in an incorruptible body.

Genesis 3
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

then he says we will have Jesus body for he is from heaven... we will have a heavenly body ..a spiritual body ...an incorruptible body a changed body ...an immortal body ...that is the mystery... because flesh and blood (the body of Adam the mortal body) cannot inherit the kingdom of god ...

Our changing will be that we [the saved] will share the Shekinah Glory of God back again in an incorruptible body ....like Adam once had before the fall.

The spiritual body is sown in a mortal body but it will be raised immortal just as Jesus is immortal and glorified so will we have one day 1 Corinthians 15:43-44

A body that is imperishable , glory, power, immortal, eternal, spiritual , heavenly

1 Corinthians 15:48-49 there are those of earth and those of heaven we already have the earthly body and so we will one day have the heavenly body

You seem to forget that we have a immortal SOUL/Spirit inside our mortal body [Genesis 2:7]
Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The spirit/soul of a believer goes to Heaven when a believer die ...no rapture needed.

Jesus will bring back the SOULS of the dead believers who are in Heaven with Him (SLEEP IN JESUS CHRIST) to be RESURRECTED on the Earth UNTO HIS COMING.
1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Yet Paul taught that Adam who was flesh and blood a mortal man cannot inherit the kingdom of god and must be changed into immortal spiritual body.. that is only made possible by the one from heaven who is able to clothe us with heavenly bodies....

When Jesus will come back to Earth (Second coming)He will bring the immortal SOULS of the believers who are in Heaven with Him to be resurrected on the Earth in a incorruptible body....

Mark 13:27 only says messenger will be send to gather his elect not fly up ...These elect are Israel that has been scattered from Jerusalem one last time....

In fact no where in the New Testament says what you just said that Angels will gather the church up to fly to Jerusalem

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up...to meet Jesus in the clouds in the AIR.

The angels will do the lift up and gathering [CAUGHT UP]of the believers still alive and remain UNTO the Coming of Jesus to meet Jesus IN THE AIR [NOT IN HEAVEN]

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[keras]

Your wrong about no false messiahic age ... for people will say here is messiah and there will arise false Christ and false prophets to deceive the false messianic age has come... Jesus forewarned not to believe them nor go after them .... it's a trap

Yes, that is how it is now. We have plenty of false teachers and the worst, but most successful teaching they have is the rapture to heaven idea.

You have the transformation after the millennium? How convenient ... I have to disagree with you and only say will see keras ..

Then you disagree with scripture. Revelation 21:5-7 THAT is when God will make everything new and give the overcomers the gift of the spring of life.

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up
The angels will do the lift up and gathering [CAUGHT UP]of the believers still alive and remain UNTO the Coming of Jesus to meet Jesus in the Air.

This transportation of those Christians who remain alive when Jesus Returns, will be like when Philip was transported. Acts 8:39

 

[Riberra]

This transportation of those Christians who remain alive when Jesus Returns, will be like when Philip was transported. Acts 8:39

That is right.
Jesus will lift up in the air the resurrected believers and the believers still alive all over the World ....but once in the air the angels will caught them and transport them [fly ] over the continents to where Jesus will be at His Coming, which is over Jerusalem.

 

[Riberra]

Then you disagree with scripture. Revelation 21:5-7 THAT is when God will make everything new and give the overcomers the gift of the spring of life.

The First Resurrection /Caught Up to meet Jesus in the air Unto His Coming over Jerusalem will occur 1,000 years before .... [Revelation 20:4-6]