Does this verse refute pre-trib rapture?

[mmksparbud]

The Day of the Lord will LAST 1,000 years. Jesus said that His Coming will be AFTER the Tribulation of those days.

Don't expect a gathering of the saved before His Coming mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31

Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

That is the day of the Lord---when He comes to get us. Immediately after the tribulation. That is the 2nd coming.

 

[Riberra]

That is the day of the Lord---when He comes to get us. Immediately after the tribulation. That is the 2nd coming.

Agreed....but to gather the saved unto Him to reign with Him on the Earth not to go to Heaven.

There are many on this thread who believe that the day of the Lord IS THE TRIBULATION...

 

[keras]

That is the day of the Lord---when He comes to get us. Immediately after the tribulation. That is the 2nd coming.

At the Return of Jesus to the earth, He will send out His angles to gather His people to Him, where He will be in Jerusalem.
There is no rapture removal to heaven then, or at any time.

 

[mmksparbud]

Agreed....
But there are many on this thread who believe that the day of the Lord is the tribulation...

OK---However, as you just quoted:

Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[keras]

Agreed....
But there are many on this thread who believe that the day of the Lord is the tribulation...

The great a terrible Day of the Lord's wrath is the Sixth Seal event. A one day, sudden and devastating strike of fire from the sun, literally fulfilling all the graphic prophesies about it.

 

[Jezmeyah]

I'll tell you what refutes a pre-trib rapture:

John 6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

John 6:40
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24
Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

If those verses refute the pre-trib rapture doctrine, then they also refute the post tribulation rapture doctrine.. because all of them only use the word 'resurrection', not anything about the rapture of the living.

The pre-trib rapture doctrine concerns itself with rapture according to the verses that the apostle Paul wrote in 1 Thes. 4:13-18. On that occasion is mentioned both resurrection and rapture.

You must have that scripture in your post trib doctrine don't you? How is it that it is not refuted by the resurrection on the last day theology? Surely if you believe that your rapture happens on the last day, then what verse in Revelation 20 has the word 'rapture' (in reference to the living) in it? Resurrection always and only refers to the dead.

If pre-trib rapture is refuted by scriptures that designate that resurrection only happens on the last day, then how could that effect the doctrine that believes in a rapture to occur before the Tribulation even begins? Such as the apostle Paul wrote of in 2 Thes. 2:6-8. That the Tribulation cannot occur without the lawless one being revealed, and he cannot be revealed until He who restrains him is taken out of the way.

The post-trib rapture doctrine does not even address (that I know of) how the lawless one can be revealed if the post rapture believers are not taken out of the way. And, He who restrains him can be none other than the Holy Spirit living in every believer at the moment of salvation.

Which means that the verses of resurrection on the last day is speaking of a different occurrence all together, as is written in Revelations 20:4-6 there is no mention of a rapture of the living in any verse of chapter 20.

No, the verses you mentioned do not refute the pre-trib rapture doctrine.

 

[Riberra]

OK---However, as you just quoted:

Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

... to gather the saved unto Him to reign with Him on the Earth not to go to Heaven.
Revelation 20:6

 

[mmksparbud]

At the Return of Jesus to the earth, He will send out His angles to gather His people to Him, where He will be in Jerusalem.
There is no rapture removal to heaven then, or at any time.

Yes, He sends His angels to gather His people
1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

 

[Riberra]

Yes, He sends His angels to gather His people
1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

.. to gather the saved unto Him to reign with Him on the Earth not to go to Heaven.
Revelation 20:6

We will have access to New Jerusalem when New Jerusalem will come down on the Earth Revelation 21 ..Revelation 22.

 

[mmksparbud]

.. to gather the saved unto Him to reign with Him on the Earth not to go to Heaven.
Revelation 20:6

We will have access to New Jerusalem when New Jerusalem will come down on the Earth Revelation 21 ..Revelation 22.

It comes down after the Judgment and hell and death are cast into the lake of fire and the earth is made new. Why would Jesus come to this polluted earth, full of death and decay, after we have met Him up in the air in the clouds when there is a heavenly city that He made especially for us? This earth will have been destroyed at His coming, it is void, and the cities are destroyed and heavens have melted with fervent heat---there's nothing and no one here. The city He made for us is in Heaven and we meet Him in the air and go there until the 1000 years are up. The earth has her Sabbath---6000 years and then the earth rests for 1000, just as the Sabbath points to this and the 6 year Sabbaths of land that the Jews kept. It all pointed to this.

 

[Straightshot]

The popular refutation of the Lord's call for His true ecclesia just before His coming judgment of the tribulation period is a fraud and a lie of Satan

Those who carry this baggage, if living at the time, will find themselves in the Lord's tribulation designed for and unbelieving world

There is a deeper flaw in this deception that needs to be uncovered .... when a man is refuting the Lord's promise on this matter his position needs to be checked .... just what is this post tribulation thinker doing?

There are no scriptures, when rendered properly, that support such a perversion .... the idea is man made and provoked by the devil

This event of the Lord's changing His true ecclesia to immortality is clearly supported by the following evidence related to those who dwell in immortality just before, during the coming tribulation, and beyond [1 Thessalonians 5:1-9; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 13:6; 17:14; 18:4; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:4 [those already on thrones who will rule with the Lord over the mortals of His millennial kingdom upon the earth]

Those who become believers during the tribulation period and martyred will be resurrected at the ending of the days of the tribulation [Revelation 6:9-11; 13:7; 14:13; 20:4] .... these will also rule with the Lord over His millennial kingdom upon the earth

The devil is the classic perpetrator of post tribulation thinking and when those who have fallen for his lying are confronted they will argue for his cause until they are blue in the face .... he has a motive that may not be apparent

And by the way, the the statement "on" the last day does not exist in any related scripture .... it is either "in" or "at" the last day .... last day is a term for the day of the coming day of Lord, a period of time including the days of His tribulation and judgment upon an unbelieving world and beyond

And neither do the following scriptures speak of a resurrection of any man [Matthew 24:29-31; 25:31-46]

The first is a gathering of the mortal survivors of the tribulation for Israel .... the next is a gathering of the same for the Gentiles of the nations

The Lord will separate the believing from the unbelieving just after the days of the tribulation period .... those found believing will be allowed to enter His millennial kingdom upon the earth and these mortals will populate [reproduce in] the kingdom .... those found in unbelief will be rejected

Satan is a master deceiver and this reprobate angel is out to refute the Lord's promises [Genesis 3] .... a man must not entertain his ambition

You will find that those who have fallen for his lie related to the Lord's early call also carry replacement theology which teaches that He is finished with His nation of Israel, and that all future prophecy concerns only their particular divide of professing Christianity .... these say that they are the "new Israel" and they are not

This obvious perversion of the prophetic scriptures should be noted as satanic meddling

Both of these off course perversions presented above go hand in hand

Warning .... if you have been bitten, move away and escape the devil's trapping [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 2:9; 3:9; 3:15-19]

 

[Riberra]

The popular refutation of the Lord's call for His true ecclesia just before His coming judgment of the tribulation period is a fraud and a lie of Satan

Those who carry this baggage, if living at the time, will find themselves in the Lord's tribulation designed for and unbelieving world

There is a deeper flaw in this deception that needs to be uncovered .... when a man is refuting the Lord's promise on this matter his position needs to be checked .... just what is this post tribulation thinker doing?

There are no scriptures, when rendered properly, that support such a perversion .... the idea is man made and provoked by the devil

This event of the Lord's changing His true ecclesia to immortality is clearly supported by the following evidence related to those who dwell in immortality just before, during the coming tribulation, and beyond [1 Thessalonians 5:1-9; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 13:6; 17:14; 18:4; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:4 ]

What rapturists fail to understand is the earth is our home, we are not going anywhere, Christ is coming here. As Zechariah 14:1-4 documents, “the day of the Lord cometh… And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.” This verse documents Christ is not only returning to the Mount of Olives, but upon His return there shall be a great earthquake which divides that mountain.

Christ must remain in Heaven until His appointed time which is the seventh trumpet as we just learned. Turn your Bibles with me to,

Acts 3:20-21
20 “And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:”

21 “Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.”

These two verses alone document there is no pre-trib rapture. God’s Word has just stated, Christ must remain in Heaven until all prophecy has been fulfilled, He cannot leave to rapture the church away. In the prior verses, we documented Christ will return to the Mount of Olives at the end of the Tribulation and not a moment before (Zechariah 14:1-4, Acts 1:11-12). It is Satan’s message that he will come to fly you away before the tribulation ...

Ezekiel 13:20
20 “Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.”

Ezekiel 13:20 prove that God is against those who sow pillows over His outreaching saving arms. He is against those who teach His children TO FLY to save their souls. God is boldly stating He is against the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine.


The false hope of the pre-trib rapture
http://worldeventsandthebible.com/2013/01/false-hope-of-the-rapture.html

 

[keras]

You will find that those who have fallen for his lie related to the Lord's early call also carry replacement theology which teaches that He is finished with His nation of Israel, and that all future prophecy concerns only their particular divide of professing Christianity .... these say that they are the "new Israel" and they are not

Please read Romans 11:13-24 VERY carefully.
Paul makes it clear [for those with eyes to see] that Christians are now part of the 'olive tree' of the Israel of God. Galatians 6:16
We should never confuse the Israel of God with the Jewish nation of Israel. Also never equate God's people with the established church. There is just one people of God, true righteous Christian individuals, still scattered among the nations, soon to be gathered. to live as His people in all of the holy Land. Ezekiel 34:11-31

This obvious perversion of the prophetic scriptures should be noted as satanic meddling

Be careful who you accuse of meddling with scripture.
Making a pre trib rapture fit what the Bible says, requires a lot of imagination and wishful thinking, as that premise is never actually stated in the Bible.

Riberra, I see Ezekiel 13:20 as being against sorcerers and witchcraft.
It does have an application today, and also against those who promote false teachings.
Ezekiel 13:21-23 ....the Lord will rescue His people from the clutches of those who have false visions and undermine the righteous.

 

[Straightshot]

Well you already know Keras that I have no validation for your corrupted theology, so no need for us to dialog on the matter of the definitive difference between the Lord's nation of Israel and the "church"

However, I do agree that Ezekiel 13 is not a refutation of the Lord's pre-tribultion call .... has nothing to do with it

If one wants to read about the perversion of this "flying away", read Arnold Murray's serpent seed dogma .... it is on the Internet

 

[keras]

Making a pre trib rapture fit what the Bible says, requires a lot of imagination and wishful thinking, as that premise is never actually stated in the Bible.

In the first edition of his book, 'The Rapture Question', Dr John Walvoord wrote: A rapture is determined more by ecclestology, [theology of the church] than eschatology. [theology of the last things] Neither postribulationism nor pretribulationism is an explicit teaching of scripture. The Bible does not state it in so many words.

In the book; 'Rapture: The End Times Error that leaves the Bible Behind', by David Currie, he says: Walvoord's admission, that a rapture to heaven is not a clear and concise teaching of the Scriptures, was so explosive that in all future editions of that book it was deleted.

But there it is: nowhere does one passage of the Bible speak of a rapture to heaven of anyone on or before the Second coming of Jesus. Rapture believers must try to justify their belief by piecing bits of verses together here and there.

 

[Straightshot]

"Rapture believers must try to justify their belief by piecing bits of verses together here and there."

You use this very method yourself by connecting the prophetic scriptures on subjects of your choosing .... it must be done in order to gain full understanding, and you know this .... and you do it all of the time

.... except when it comes to something that you want to refute

So I put no credence in your refutation of the Lord's intent to call His true ecclesia just before He brings His wrath and judgment upon an unbelieving world of humanity

The event and supporting scriptural evidence is given in spades

.... but you and many others refuse to recognize this truth and conveniently switch your method of study

This is very strange behavior to say the least

The Lord has said that the gate is narrow and few will ever find it ............

 

[keras]

Rapture believers must try to justify their belief by piecing bits of verses together here and there."

This quote from David Currie, doesn't give the full story.
Those who believe in a rapture to heaven before the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath, or the Great Tribulation, have to add to scripture. Such a thing as live people going to heaven, was never part of God's Plan for His people and as eventually heaven will be on earth, Revelation 21:3, there is no reason for God to do that.

The event and supporting scriptural evidence is given in spades

OK. Walvoord couldn't find it, Jesus refuted any such notion, Paul tells us that at the gathering on the Return, Matthew 24:30-31, surviving Christians will rise to meet Jesus, as He comes: accompanied by the armies of heaven. NOT people.

 

[ScottA]

I am finally delving further into eschatology. I consider myself a historic premillennialist as I didn't see a reason to divide the Second Coming into two stages.

However, I decided to examine let the pre-trib position objectively and fairly. I think the pre-trib people make lots of good points, but I'm still iffy about the rapture and the official Second Coming.

Does the verse below refute a pre-tribulation rapture?

"I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one." -John 17:15 (ESV)

Do not confuse the one-time event of the coming of Christ to mean that we are all raised up in a future one-time event. It will not be a one-time even, but rather, as it is written...it was a one-time event: those who are in Christ were raised up with Him. Colossians 3:1

Also, just as it was with Christ...all men come in their own order, i.e. in their own time. So shall we all be taken up. 1 Corinthians 15:23

 

[Riberra]

However, I do agree that Ezekiel 13 is not a refutation of the Lord's pre-tribultion call .... has nothing to do with it

If one wants to read about the perversion of this "flying away",

There must be a good reason explaining why Ezekiel 13:20 have been modified in the New Bible Versions....That is because it expose the lies of the false prophets and false teachers.

The NewKJV have replaced SOULS in Ezekiel 13:20 by Birds....
Ezekiel 13:20 NKJV
20 “‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against your magic charms with which you ensnare people like birds and I will tear them from your arms; I will set free the people that you ensnare like birds.


Ezekiel 13:20 KJV
20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

This verse is very clear; God is against those that teach His people their souls will be saved by flying away (rapture)! In the following verses, it's explained that the wicked are fortified by this lie . Teaching rapture to the sinner, the sinner won't then repent and they become brazen in their sin because they've been taught all they must do is believe and Jesus will fly them away to heaven, which is contrary to God's word. Jesus taught, "repent or perish" Luke 13:3, 5. Scripture teaches us to preach repentance for the remission of sin in Luke 24:47, Mark 6:12, Acts 2:38 and 2 Peter 3:9.

 

[dfw69]

What rapturists fail to understand is the earth is our home, we are not going anywhere, Christ is coming here. As Zechariah 14:1-4 documents, “the day of the Lord cometh… And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.” This verse documents Christ is not only returning to the Mount of Olives, but upon His return there shall be a great earthquake which divides that mountain.

Christ must remain in Heaven until His appointed time which is the seventh trumpet as we just learned. Turn your Bibles with me to,

Acts 3:20-21
20 “And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:”

21 “Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.”

These two verses alone document there is no pre-trib rapture. God’s Word has just stated, Christ must remain in Heaven until all prophecy has been fulfilled, He cannot leave to rapture the church away. In the prior verses, we documented Christ will return to the Mount of Olives at the end of the Tribulation and not a moment before (Zechariah 14:1-4, Acts 1:11-12). It is Satan’s message that he will come to fly you away before the tribulation ...

Ezekiel 13:20
20 “Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.”

Ezekiel 13:20 prove that God is against those who sow pillows over His outreaching saving arms. He is against those who teach His children TO FLY to save their souls. God is boldly stating He is against the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine.


The false hope of the pre-trib rapture
http://worldeventsandthebible.com/2013/01/false-hope-of-the-rapture.html

Riberra Jesus appeared to Paul well after he was seated at the right hand of God and he also appeared to John on the island of Patmos... and so he is also able to appear to the church when the rapture takes at the appointed time..

He also said the world will not see me no more but you will see me again because I will return for you ...that he will manifest himself to us and not the world in John 14:18-24

We are not orphans... he will come for us and make a home where he and the father is ... he literally made a way to the father so that we may behold him

You say our home is earth .. but in fact our home is a city called New Jerusalem which is in heaven... a city that is 1500 miles wide and high and it will not come down from heaven till after Jesus ruled for 1000 years ... which has not even begun until he returns to earth ...

he will only return when Israel will cry blessed is he that comes in the name of the lord... when Israel is ready to receive him then will he return to earth ...and then the world will behold him again because Israel will have received the promised messiah and the world will be blessed by her change and transformation

The proof you should accept is the fact that 1 Corinthians 15 teach that we will be changed to receive heavenly bodies... why give us heavenly bodies if our home is earth?... all we need is flesh and blood to live on earth... we have that already ... the only reason for heavenly bodies is to live in gods presence in heaven...understand?