Does this verse refute pre-trib rapture?

[Pastor Present]

Hya Pastor P, welcome to the forums!

The Elect Jews ARE the Church. Always were.
The "church" is not something separate from Israel, but rather is the remnant of the faithful within Israel.

Acts 7:38 speaks of "the church in the wilderness" with Moses. Likewise, Isaiah pointed out that in times of Israel's great apostasies, the faithful of the nation were reduced to a tiny remnant of elect ones (Isaiah 1:8-9). So it was in the first century, where Paul identifies himself as an example of the faithful remnant (Romans 11:1-5).

Moreover, the apostles continually say that the members of the Nazarene sect are the true elect ones (2 Tim 2:10; Col 3:12; Galatians 6:15-16; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 2:9-10 ). The Church is the faithful ones of Israel.

Israelites that accept Christ don't cease to be Israel because they joined the Church. Rather, they are obedient Israel, the remnant of Israel, the elect of Israel. They were the church long before a single gentile was added to their number years later. The Church is Jewish and is Israel at its very foundations and origins (the Israeli apostles).

Concerning "the church in the wilderness". The King James Version is the only version that 'church' appears in that verse. I checked 15 translations and they will say people, assembly, or congregation. The Christian Church started (was born) at Pentecost after Jesus' death, burial, resurrection, and ascension. If any Israelite puts his faith in the redeeming work of the Lord Jesus he then becomes part of the Christian Church - or a Christain Jew (what a great thing to be!).
God's Elect are God's Elect but aren't Christians until they place their trust in Jesus.

 

[mmksparbud]

You're right - my post was a refutation of post-trib rapture. I believe pre-trib is the only sensible conclusion you can come to by really understanding scriptures on the subject.

God takes us through our trials, not out of them. He is with you in trials and tribulations, and protects but does not always save us from them, He just promises to be with us through our trials.
2Pe_3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe_3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


When Jesus comes, the righteous dead are resurrected, the righteous living are taken up to Him. At His coming, the living wicked are destroyed by the brightness of His coming, the wicked dead remain dead until, after the thousand years---there is nothing here after He comes.

Jer 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
Jer 4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
Jer 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

 

[Pastor Present]

God takes us through our trials, not out of them. He is with you in trials and tribulations, and protects but does not always save us from them, He just promises to be with us through our trials.
2Pe_3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe_3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


When Jesus comes, the righteous dead are resurrected, the righteous living are taken up to Him. At His coming, the living wicked are destroyed by the brightness of His coming, the wicked dead remain dead until, after the thousand years---there is nothing here after He comes.

Jer 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
Jer 4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
Jer 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

I also use the KJV but, for clarity to those who don't:
2Th 2:6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2Th 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

The Holy Spirit dwelling in believers will be removed - And then the lawless one will be revealed.

In the tribulation God's wrath is going to be poured our - we aren't appointed to wrath:
1Th 5:4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. (we'll know the season)
1Th 5:5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
1Th 5:8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
1Th 5:11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.

If Posttribulationism were true:
You'll through seven years of God's wrath.
You'll suffer through Satan's furious wrath.
You'll experience the seal, trumpet, and bowl judgements, which grow progressively worse, increasingly painful.
Many of you will die painful deaths as martyrs.
THEREFORE COMFORT ONE ANOTHER WITH THESE WORDS ???
This last line of encouragement only makes sense in the PreTrib view.

 

[mmksparbud]

I also use the KJV but, for clarity to those who don't:
2Th 2:6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2Th 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

The Holy Spirit dwelling in believers will be removed - And then the lawless one will be revealed.

In the tribulation God's wrath is going to be poured our - we aren't appointed to wrath:
1Th 5:4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. (we'll know the season)
1Th 5:5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
1Th 5:8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
1Th 5:11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.

If Posttribulationism were true:
You'll through seven years of God's wrath.
You'll suffer through Satan's furious wrath.
You'll experience the seal, trumpet, and bowl judgements, which grow progressively worse, increasingly painful.
Many of you will die painful deaths as martyrs.
THEREFORE COMFORT ONE ANOTHER WITH THESE WORDS ???
This last line of encouragement only makes sense in the PreTrib view.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
2Th_1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Yes--there will be persecution, there always has been. We will be given the strength to withstand.

2Co_1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

The "comfort one another with these words" is about death and the resurrection:
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[BABerean2]

The Holy Spirit dwelling in believers will be removed - And then the lawless one will be revealed.

Based on the words of Christ in John chapter 3, nobody can see the kingdom without being "born again" of the Spirit of God.

Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.
Joh 3:2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him."
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
Joh 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
Joh 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, "How can these things be?"
Joh 3:10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?

Christ chastised Nicodemus for not knowing this in the verse above.


Isa_63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?
(Moses had the holy Spirit within him.)

In Luke 3:16, we find that Christ baptizes with the Holy Spirit.


Below, former pretrib believer Steven Straub explains why he changed his mind about the pretrib doctrine.

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[parousia70]

Correct. The LORD has unfinished business with Israel. This would be the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy of Dan 9:24-27.
The Church is removed, the Holy Spirit is 'taken out of the way' and Rev chs 5-22 happen.

Seems we may be talking past one another.

The Church IS the elect of Israel.
They are one in The same.
There is no “elect of Israel” apart from the Church.

 

[parousia70]

If any Israelite puts his faith in the redeeming work of the Lord Jesus he then becomes part of the Christian Church - or a Christain Jew (what a great thing to be!).

At what point does that Israelite convert to Christianity cease being part of God’s elect “Israel”?

 

[Postvieww]

The Holy Spirit dwelling in believers will be removed

This statement is without any scriptural support and is totally opinion! Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. How can this passage even be possible with your theory? If the Holy Spirit leaves with believers in your pretrib theory how can there be saints for the beast to make war against. John 6:44

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. If the Spirit within believers is removed to then reveal the “lawless” one how is it we find saints in Revelation 13:7?

 

[mmksparbud]

This statement is without any scriptural support and is totally opinion! Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. How can this passage even be possible with your theory? If the Holy Spirit leaves with believers in your pretrib theory how can there be saints for the beast to make war against. John 6:44

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. If the Spirit within believers is removed to then reveal the “lawless” one how is it we find saints in Revelation 13:7?

Rev_8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev_22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Jesus will end His work as our High Priest at some point and return for us. At that point, there is no more intercession for anyone--"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."---it is done, all is over---He returns!