• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.

Featured Does this verse refute pre-trib rapture?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by FaithfulPilgrim, Oct 2, 2016.

  1. FaithfulPilgrim

    FaithfulPilgrim Eternally Seeking

    455
    +117
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    US-Libertarian
    I am finally delving further into eschatology. I consider myself a historic premillennialist as I didn't see a reason to divide the Second Coming into two stages.

    However, I decided to examine let the pre-trib position objectively and fairly. I think the pre-trib people make lots of good points, but I'm still iffy about the rapture and the official Second Coming.

    Does the verse below refute a pre-tribulation rapture?

    "I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one." -John 17:15 (ESV)
     
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

    +1,008
    Canada
    Christian
    Married
    I'll tell you what refutes a pre-trib rapture:

    John 6:39
    And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

    John 6:40
    For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

    John 6:44
    "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

    John 6:54
    Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

    John 11:24
    Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
     
  3. Psalm3704

    Psalm3704 And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

    +389
    Christian
    Private
    John 17:15 is not a verse on the rapture. Jesus was praying for His disciples who lived 2000 years ago. If that's a verse on the rapture, that would mean the rapture happened 2000 years ago when they were still alive.

    You can see from John 17:9, Jesus said “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world." He's praying for His disciples.

    If that's not enough, look in the link.

    ~From John 17:1-5, He prays for Himself.
    ~From John 17:6-19, He prays for His disciples.
    ~From John 17:20-26, He prays for all believers.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john+17&version=NKJV

    John 17 New King James Version (NKJV)
    Jesus Prays for Himself

    17 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said:“Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

    Jesus Prays for His Disciples
    6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.

    9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as Weare. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

    Jesus Prays for All Believers
    20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who wille]" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;"> believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

    24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”



    .
    John 17:15 is a common verse advocates of the post-tribulation rapture pulls out of context to promote a false doctrine.

    If you do some serious research, you'll find all verses they claimed pertaining to a post-trib rapture are all taken out of context and falsely interpreted. But feel free to post more questions like this with other verses and I'll be happy to reveal what the verses mean for you.

    There's a very good reason why a big part of the church has been deceived on the timing of the rapture. The devil wants Christians to endure the tribulation because of Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:10, Revelation 20:4. The saints will be handed to the a/c during the tribulation and beheaded for their faith. Satan will have a feast those 42 months torturing God's people to death.

    Jesus will not rapture anyone who wish to go through the tribulation. He will not override anyone's freewill. The bible tells us not to let anyone rob you of your crown. If someone has convinced you of the post-trib rapture, he's robbed you of your crown. You have to be raptured into heaven in order to receive your reward at the Bema Seat. Christ will not take you if you firmly believe in a post-trib rapture. All rewards will be forfeited if one cannot be present at the Bema Seat.

    Revelation 3:10-11 New King James Version (NKJV)
    10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.


    .
    Pre-Tribulation Rapture Bible Verses

    Isaiah 26:19 - 27:1New King James Version (NKJV)
    19 Your dead shall live;
    Together with my dead body they shall arise.
    Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
    For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
    And the earth shall cast out the dead.

    20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
    And shut your doors behind you;
    Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
    Until the indignation is past.

    21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
    To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
    The earth will also disclose her blood,
    And will no more cover her slain.

    1 In that day the Lord with His severe sword, great and strong,
    Will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
    Leviathan that twisted serpent;
    And He will slay the reptile that is in the sea.

    1 Thessalonians 1:10 New King James Version (NKJV)
    and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead,even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

    Romans 5:9 (ESV)
    Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

    Hebrews 9:28 Good News Translation (GNT)
    In the same manner Christ also was offered in sacrifice once to take away the sins of many. He will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to save those who are waiting for him.

    Hebrews 12:22-26 New King James Version (NKJV)
    22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

    25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.”






    .





    .
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2016
  4. Psalm3704

    Psalm3704 And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

    +389
    Christian
    Private
    Those aren't verses on the rapture and they can easily be refuted later. But first. let's have a little fun below.

    If John 11:24 is a rapture verse, "how did Martha knew about the rapture of the church 30 years before Paul wrote 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?"

    Nobody else knew about the rapture except Jesus and He didn't tell anyone except a few of His disciples on the Mt. of Olives.

    One other thing. Aren't you the one who thinks the last day is the great white throne judgement in Revelation 20:11-15?








    .
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2016
  5. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +2,233
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    The Pre-trib only tag does not mean to talk about only the pre-trib rapture. It means for persons acknowledging the viability of the pre-trib view.

    The thread should either have no tag or a different tag.
     
  6. FreeinChrist

    FreeinChrist CF Advisory team Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +12,191
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Democrat
    MOD Hat

    The prefix was removed per the OP
     
  7. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

    +2,600
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2016
  8. Psalm3704

    Psalm3704 And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

    +389
    Christian
    Private
    I just finished posting this on another thread explaining what the last day was.



    Before Christ was born, no one was ever resurrected to heaven. God instructed John the Baptist to preach "repentance for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand" meaning people will be resurrected and will now go to heaven, Matthew 3:2. During His ministry, Jesus also instructed His disciples to preach the Kingdom of Heaven is near, Matthew 10:7. Jesus said I will raise him up on the last day: His last day on earth when he dies on the cross. Many had become aware of the soon resurrection, even Martha who knew her brother would soon be raise from the dead, John 11:23-24.

    And on the last day --- His last day --- as He died on the cross, Jesus resurrected the OT saints from the grave.

    Matthew 27:50-53 New King James Version (NKJV)
    50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.



    Here's an undeniable proof in John 11:23-24. Martha was talking about her brother who was resurrected on the last day. If the last day is still in the future, her brother must be pretty old by now.

    John 11:23-24 New King James Version (NKJV)
    23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”






    .





    .

     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2016
  9. HollyHobbie

    HollyHobbie Well-Known Member

    679
    +46
    Baptist
    Married
    since I am very fussy about the different newer version bible clues to the rapture than the older I will refrain from saying everything I am thinking. But to me all that really matters right now is leading souls to Christ before the rapture hits........from my studying of the rapture we don't really know a hundred percent sure when the rapture will take place but Psalm3704 has a point
     
  10. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

    +2,600
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2016
  11. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

    +2,600
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2016
  12. John Hyperspace

    John Hyperspace UnKnown ReMember

    +1,248
    Christian
    Single
    Honestly, I think the biggest problem with a pre-second coming 'catching up/rapture' is that there's simply nothing in the bible that directly teaches the notion. Before we interpret passages as indicating a 'pre-second coming rapture' the bible must first clearly teach such a thing. But it doesn't, and so people are forced to take passages which can be interpreted consistently with the rest of scripture, and try to interpret them in a way that isn't consistent with what scripture clearly teaches.

    For instance, they will go to a verse about being 'kept from the hour' and interpret it as meaning 'taken out of the world', when verses such as the John verse you cite show that this word 'keep/kept' is always elsewhere used in opposition to that idea of 'taking out of the world' and simply as being kept, as a keeper 'keeps' or 'guards'.

    But speaking of the 'catching up' the timing is actually taught by Paul in his letters to the Thessalonians. At 1 Thessalonians 4 we have Paul teaching:

    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    So Paul teaches clearly that there will be those Christians 'alive and remaining unto the coming of the Lord' and that this would be when they would be 'caught up together'. This word 'coming of the Lord' is called the 'parousia of the Lord', are you familiar with the word 'parousia'? If you do a study on the 'parousia of the Lord' you will find that it is the second coming. Paul teaches of this day in his second letter to the Thessalonians at chapter 2:

    8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

    That word 'the brightness of his coming' is 'the brightness of his parousia'; so Paul is teaching that the 'son of perdition' or 'that Wicked' who causes 'falling away' and 'sits in the temple of God' is destroyed by the 'brightness' of the 'parousia of the Lord': that same 'parousia of the Lord' that occurs in his first letter; that 'parousia of the Lord' unto which 'we who are alive' remain. This is that same 'parousia' which is 'as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west' at Matthew 24:27.

    This is that event at Revelation 19 since as we read at 1 Thesselonians 4: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. So at this 'parousia of the Lord' the saints come with Jesus, and we see this at Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
     
  13. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

    +2,600
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2016
  14. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +2,233
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    I am "anytime rapture view" because of the exact reason you stated. I coined the term myself, adapting from what it says in Luke 21:34-36, about anytime. You might want to adopt the view yourself. The rapture can happen "anytime" between now and when it actually does.

    I do acknowledge that the rapture could happen pre-trib (a misnomer, really it means pre-70th week). But it is not a 100% certain. From my understanding of 2thessalonians2:1-8, the rapture will have to take place before the transgression of desolation act which the person who will be the Antichrist at the time (the King of Israel, illegitimate) betrays the covenant and his people, by going into the temple claiming to be God, revealing himself as the man of sin.

    So the rapture might take place after the 70th week begins. But pre-trib (pre-70th week) is definitely a possibility.

    Leading souls to Christ is the objective - which telling them about the rapture is all part of it as well. So we need to be clear about it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2016
  15. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

    +2,600
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2016
  16. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

    +1,008
    Canada
    Christian
    Married
    You mean they can easily be twisted?
    Because what Paul wrote about in 1 Thess 4 is the resurrection. Same event, new description.
    Yup. I'm that guy. :oldthumbsup:

    Now let me ask you something. Why would you think the rapture and the resurrection are two different events?
     
  17. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

    +1,008
    Canada
    Christian
    Married

    But they didn't go to heaven when they were raised. They went to the city. So you seem to be contradicting yourself.

    lol. No. Her brother must be pretty dead by now. As she said, he will be resurrected on the last day. Not "the last day Jesus was on earth", but the last day. Just as Jesus said.

    Really, the Bible makes a lot more sense if you don't insert your own words.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2016
  18. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

    +1,985
    Christian
    So according to you, the last day is past, finished done.

    These verses all point to the last day as future.
    To be raised up on the last day is speaking of the resurrection.
    Think about it. If the last day was a past day, then there is no resurrection of the body coming of the evil and the good, and if so then there is none for you either.
    Paul warned about the false teaching that the resurrection was past.
    2 Timothy 2:18
    who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations


    John 6:39
    This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    John 6:40
    And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    John 6:44
    No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    John 6:54
    Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    John 11:24
    Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    John 12:48
    He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.​
     
  19. Psalm3704

    Psalm3704 And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

    +389
    Christian
    Private
    Bingo!!! That's all I needed to hear, and it's all I wanted you to disclose to all readers. Thank you for being upfront and honest with your answer.

    Your belief that the last day happens at the great white throne judgement not just nulls the pre-trib rapture, but also eliminates the post-trib, mid-trib and prewrath views as well.

    From here I'll just answer a few of your questions and the dialogue is over. All I wanted to do was to make sure all the readers understood your position on the last day, when you think it happens.

    Because there's a grand total of four resurrections. One happened already 2000 years ago: Matthew 27:50-53. Three more still ahead. Whether or not the rapture and the resurrection is the same depends on which resurrection you're implying.



    Heaven is more than just the throne room of God. It has a city called the New Jerusalem, Revelation 21:2. In heaven there's also a place called paradise, Luke 23:43, 1 Corinthians 12:1-4.

    John 14:2-3 New King James Version (NKJV)
    2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

    2 Corinthians 5:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
    For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

    Hebrews 11:10 New King James Version (NKJV)
    for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

    Hebrews 11:16 New King James Version (NKJV)
    But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

    Hebrews 13:14 New King James Version (NKJV)
    For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come.

    Hebrews 12:22-24 New King James Version (NKJV)
    22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.



    ROFL! I wasn't sure if you would respond. It was a leading comment to get you to reply because you didn't reply to post#4. I wanted you to reveal to other readers where you stood on the last day, when you think happens.







    .





    .
     
  20. Psalm3704

    Psalm3704 And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

    +389
    Christian
    Private
    No, it's according to the bible, you even quoted Matthew 27:50-53.

    It's future from the time Jesus made those comments in John 6. He later performed a resurrection in Matthew 27:50-53 when He died on the cross.


    Dude, you're potentially misleading the readers.

    Matthew 27:50-53 happened on the day Christ died on the cross in 33 AD. At the time, Paul wasn't even a believer nor a follower of Christ. Paul didn't start writing his books till after 63 AD, which is 3 decades after the resurrection of Matthew 27:50-53 had passed.

    In 2 Timothy 2:18, Paul is writing about the resurrection involved in the rapture, which is still future.


    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


    A post-tribulation rapture doesn't fall on the last day. Post-tribulation means after the tribulation, not in the tribulation.

    Post-tribbers based their rapture doctrine on Matthew 24:29-31 which happens "immediately AFTER the tribulation!"

    Matthew 24:29-31 New King James Version (NKJV)
    29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    A post-tribulation rapture falls on the first day of the millennium........and gathers people from heaven.

    Only the Pre-Tribulation rapture falls on the last day, the last day of the church age. The next day is the first day of the tribulation.













    .
     
Loading...