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Featured Does this make it any clearer?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Douggg, Aug 15, 2019.

  1. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Not unless you think Satan and the wicked angels are still in heaven.
    Who was the woman who brought forth the man-child?

    The following should make it clearer.


    Mat 2:7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.
    Mat 2:8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.
    Mat 2:9 When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.
    Mat 2:10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.
    Mat 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.
    Mat 2:12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.
    Mat 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
    Mat 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
    Mat 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.


    Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
    Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
    Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
    Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
    Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. (See Psalm 2.)
    Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
    Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
    Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
    Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019
  2. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Revelation 12:7-9 is referring to the second heaven not the third heaven.

    Eons ago, when Satan and his angels rebelled and were expelled from free roaming in the third heaven - he certainly had more than a time, times, half times left.

    Revelation 12:14, the time, times, half times verifies that it is referring to the second heaven, the universe, in Revelation 12:7-9 that Satan will be cast down to earth from.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019
  3. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    More than just the word woe. It also contains the phrase "to the inhabiters of the earth".

    Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

    1st woe
    Revelation 9:1 the fifth angel sounds - the bottomless pit opened by an angel. As a star (in the universe, the second heaven) falling to earth.

    2nd woe
    Revelation 9:13 the sixth angel sounds - the four angels released, which are bound by the great river Euphrates.

    3rd woe

    Revelation 12:12 the seventh angel sounds - Satan , an angel, cast down to earth from the second heaven, the universe, woe to the inhabiters of the earth.

    The third woe of the three woes is the only one that specifically contains the phrase - "woe to the inhabiters of the earth" like it states in Revelation 8:13.

    All three woes involve rebellious angels.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019
  4. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The great tribulation is triggered by the abomination of desolation placed in the temple. Not by Satan when he is cast down.

    The great tribulation will have already begun, when Satan is cast down to earth.
     
  5. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Revelation 13 does indicate the image of the beast made and placed in the temple, the abomination of desolation which triggers the great tribulation.

    But the 42 months rule by the beast, is after the two witnesses are gone, no longer impeding the beast.

    The statue image of the beast will be inanimate, no life to it, when first placed in the temple.

    After the two witnesses are killed and the seventh trumpet sounds, and God begins dismantling Satan's kingdom - first by crashing it and its king down to earth, Satan cast down - Satan then incarnates the statue image making it appear to come to life and speak.

    And the demand for everyone to worship it.

    Please read my thread, opening post...
    Futurist Only - The abomination of desolation turned to ashes
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019
  6. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Are Satan and the wicked angels now found in the second heaven, based on the scripture found below?


    Mar 5:9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.
    Mar 5:10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.
    Mar 5:11 Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.
    Mar 5:12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.
    Mar 5:13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.

    2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


    Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


    Rev_9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.


    When was the man-child, who will rule with a rod of Iron, born?

    .
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019
  7. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Satan and his angels are not restricted from roaming the second heaven, the first heaven, and earth. It is the third heaven that they have been banned from roaming freely.

    Some of the wicked angels involved in the attempt to create a hybrid race by mating with humans, were placed in chains and are not free to roam around anywhere.
     
  8. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:


    Isa_14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!



    Nothing that you have said above is based on scripture, and that is why you supplied no scripture to back up your man-made narrative.

    .
     
  9. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    To the contrary. I have been talking about Revelation 12:7-9, Satan being cast down from heaven. And the time, times, half time Satan has left being grounded here on earth, the third woe, in Revelation 12:12, and the time, times, half times in Revelation 12:14. Go back to my posts 22, 23 and my opening Post #1, you see that I have been referencing bible verses.

    You copy and paste verses and make no comment of why those verses are pertinent. What it boils down to is that you don't have an argument. What's your comment of Genesis 3:14 and Isaiah 14:12 pertinent to the discussion?
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019
  10. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Some verses are written in a way that any unbiased witness who understands the English language can read them and easily understand what God meant, without any comment from me.

    Unlike what you are often attempting to promote.

    God told Satan that he would be confined to the earth in Genesis 3:14.
    We find the same thing in Isaiah 14:12, and 2 Peter 2:4.


    .
     
  11. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I don't know how you come to that conclusion. God was speaking to the beast that beguiled Eve. The beast was already on the earth, but was cursed to crawl in the dust.

    That beast was used by Satan. Satan right now is going about as a roaring lion seeking who he can devour, right? 1Peter5:8.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019
  12. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    That "beast" was Satan.

    Why would you think otherwise?


    Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    Do you not understand that the verse above is the Protoevangelium?



    .
     
  13. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Because the beast was a beast of the field. 1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

    And Satan is not said to be crawling around on his belly in the dust, afterwards. I gave you the bible verse Satan is as a roaring lion seeking who he can devour.

    What I think you should think about is that specific beast in the garden that was used by Satan, and the beast in the bottomless pit in Revelation 17:8a

    8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
     
  14. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    That verse is. But not the verses about the literal beast beguiling Eve and cursed to crawl on its belly in the dust thereafter.

    Ephesians 2:2 refers to Satan...
    2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: KJV

    Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. KJV

    A lot of translations say in the heavenlies, in heavenly places.

    Click on the verse below to get to the compare page...


    Ephesians 6:12 - For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spir.
    __________________________________________________________

    It is the second heaven in Revelation 12:7-9 that Satan will be kicked down to earth from. Then after he is cast down, near the end of the time, times, half time, the universe is going to part and the world will see the third heaven where God's throne is, in the sixth seal event in Revelation 6:12-17. So Satan is not even going to have a home in the universe any more, because it will be pulled aside.

    Look at what it says in Revelation 12:8. His place which he will be cast down from is not going to exist anymore.

    Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

    8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

    9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

    It is not talking about something that happened eons ago, of Satan and the rebellious angels being forced out of the third heaven, where God's throne is, from free roaming around there.

    The big picture of why Revelation 12:7-9 is that when the 7th angel sounds in Revelation 11:15, God starts dismantling Satan's kingdom of Mystery Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots and abominations on the earth, to make way for the Kingdom of God being the ruling power over the nations when Jesus returns.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019
  15. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    If you think the character in verse 14 is different than the character in verse 15, you may want to go back and take high school level English again.

    Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
    Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    .
     
  16. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The beast was relegated to being the forerunner of snakes. It was a curse that took place right then. "and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life"

    It is not talking about Satan crawling on his belly in the dust.

    Please go to my thread the opening post, on the Futurist Only - The abomination of desolation turned to ashes . Ezekiel 28 describes the steps to the destruction of Satan.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019
  17. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Gen 3:14 So the LORD God said to the serpent: "Because you have done this, You are cursed more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you shall go, And you shall eat dust All the days of your life.
    Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel."





    .
     
  18. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The issue has nothing do with an English lesson. You are showing frustration in posting the video, having run out of rationale of why Satan, in your view, will not be cast down from the second heaven in Revelation 12:7-9 sometime in the future.

    You are not making a sound argument. Or continuing with an actual argument. I presented to you other verses in the bible to show that Satan is not crawling on his belly in the dust, which you seem to ignore those verses.

    The protoevangelium is taking the literal meaning of the text, in Genesis 3:15, and presenting the underlying theological meaning about Jesus being the messiah, who will destroy Satan, the first mention of the concept in the bible.

    Satan, knowing he is about to have his head crushed, figuratively, strikes as Jesus's heel, figuratively, and takes part in having Jesus crucified.

    Satan was not crawling on his belly, literally, when he entered Judas, to betray Jesus. And the subsequent crucifixion of Jesus.

    Satan will not be crawling on his belly literally when Jesus returns.

    Satan will be incarnating the abomination of desolation.

    The steps to the destruction of Satan are in Ezekiel 28:16-19. None of them involve Satan crawling on his belly, literally, as what happened to the beast in Genesis 3. You have not addressed any of the content of Ezekiel 28:16-19 regrading the steps to Satan being a terror no more.

    I address Satan's destruction, in my opening post in this thread - link...

    Futurist Only - The abomination of desolation turned to ashes . Ezekiel 28 describes the steps to the destruction of Satan.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2019
  19. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Where is Satan found in the scripture below?


    Job_1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

    Zec_3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

    Mar_1:13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.

    Luk_10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

    Luk_22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

    Rev_2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

    .................................................................

    2Co_11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

    Based on the verse above, can Satan transform himself into other forms, such as a serpent?

    .
     
  20. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    In the third heaven. I have been saying that eons ago, Satan was banned from the third heaven roaming freely there. Satan has restricted access.
    same answer as abve.

    on earth, in land of Israel.
    From the second heaven. A knock down, not a knock out.
    On earth. In Israel.
    On earth. Active in Pergamos, Greece.
    Generically speaking, could be anywhere.
    _____________________________________________

    Okay, I answered all of those questions. You still did not address why that makes your view that Satan will not be cast down from the second heaven in the future, in Revelation 12:7-9 is right. Nor did you address God's plan for the destruction of Satan in Ezekiel 28:16-19.

    It does not say one way or the other. But that you are implying that is what happened in the garden is not proved so by the text.

    Satan was not relegated, cursed, to crawl on his belly in the dust, the rest of his life. The verses above, which you had me go through and answer, show that as well.
     
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