Does this even count as ALTRUISM? ......

[2PhiloVoid]

NO, there's not going to be an extended lead-in. Just read the brief article I'm posting below (...it's like 3 minutes reading time, or less) about how the mafia in Italy is helping the poor and disenfranchised .... and then, if you think you're an agent of moral deliberation, tell me how well the mafia's efforts morally measure up.

Italy's desperate receive mafia offers they can't refuse (BBC news article)

Open for discussion!

 

[Noxot]

I see it as two different dominant power structures struggling for power. There is not that much of a difference between governments and gangs. Interesting read though. certainly the government has a great need to seem as if they are the good guys.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I see it as two different dominant power structures struggling for power. There is not that much of a difference between governments and gangs. Interesting read though. certainly the government has a great need to seem as if they are the good guys.

Those are some good points. Sometimes, the government doesn't pull its weight in organizing for the social welfare of those falling through the cracks. And so, in such an instance in Italy, the mafia in Italy (and I would assume elsewhere, too) is only too happy to step in where and when the government fails.

But, do we want to say that what the mafia is doing in Italy to help those struggling "counts" as altruism (or beneficence)?

 

[zippy2006]

But, do we want to say that what the mafia is doing in Italy to help those struggling "counts" as altruism (or beneficence)?

I would say it involves beneficence since pity is one motive, but that also seems like a fairly insubstantial motive. The driving forces behind the acts are apparently better attributed to a jockeying for position within the society than to beneficence.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I would say it involves beneficence since pity is one motive, but that also seems like a fairly insubstantial motive. The driving forces behind the acts are apparently better attributed to a jockeying for position within the society than to beneficence.

And what evidence in the article leads you to believe that the italian mafia doesn't really act out of charity or altruistic motives but is rather, as you put it, "jockeying for position within society"?

 

[Noxot]

Those are some good points. Sometimes, the government doesn't pull its weight in organizing for the social welfare of those falling through the cracks. And so, in such an instance in Italy, the mafia in Italy (and I would assume elsewhere, too) is only too happy to step in where and when the government fails.

But, do we want to say that what the mafia is doing in Italy to help those struggling "counts" as altruism (or beneficence)?

What is real altruism anyway? Christian charity is real altruism. the things that Jesus Christ preached are real altruism. Lower altruism is an aspect of evolutionary survival and higher altruism is a quality of God.

Does what the governments in general do really count as altruism? Often I would say no, not in the higher sense though there are people in government that can be good and try to do good. I wonder if the same can be said for the mafia? I think it is a possibility especially if they were more legitimised by Society in general. But the dominance game requires them to be criminals since the winner of the dominance game is the official government. but I would say the mafia, like any good tribe, would take care of its own.

Intimidating people to vote a certain way is nothing new. forcing a few store owners to vote for them is funny... as if there are so many store owners that they could possibly make a large impact on the voting system. so this article seems like government propaganda to me.

If the mafia does not do it by force then so what if they can buy some votes. Huge corporations buy plenty of things for themselves. Many politicians take advantage of their job, it is the fleshly nature for one to get for themselves as many advantages as they can.

Democracy is in some ways an illusion. it's something that allows people to believe that they have a say. The government has to please people so they can keep pleasing themselves. In that article the mafia is pleasing people so that they can be pleased.

That man killed 20 people. how many people have been killed unjustly by Servants of the government? do you really think the slaughter of so many people in d-day was necessary or required? Other better plans could have been created but human beings are expendable tools to systems that place themselves above humans. And just like humans are tools to the system so too do humans try to use the system as their own tool.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

NO, there's not going to be an extended lead-in. Just read the brief article I'm posting below (...it's like 3 minutes reading time, or less) about how the mafia in Italy is helping the poor and disenfranchised .... and then, if you think you're an agent of moral deliberation, tell me how well the mafia's efforts morally measure up.

Italy's desperate receive mafia offers they can't refuse (BBC news article)

Open for discussion!

It is clear from the article that their actions may help the person but it is not altruistic. They are going to want something in return. For me it would depend on what they want in return and how that related to the maximum overall well being.

If it was myself and I had three kids to feed and I had no other way of feeding them then taking their money in return for voting a certain way in the future, as one possibility the article puts forward, may be a morally correct action. This being said, many people including myself may do what we consider immoral actions if it involves our loved ones well being. A decision may not maximize well being for all to take the money to feed my kids but many people would do it anyway, I probably would as well.

 

[zippy2006]

And what evidence in the article leads you to believe that the italian mafia doesn't really act out of charity or altruistic motives but is rather, as you put it, "jockeying for position within society"?

Well, the testimony from Nicola Gratteri, Gaspare Mutolo, and Antonio and Francesca all claim that this is true. For example, the idea that the mafia seeks to eventually own the businesses they lend to in order to launder money or that there is an expectation of repayment for the favors given (such as votes). The whole article is really an extended argument that the mafia is a bad actor and that Italians are getting caught between a rock and a hard place when the mafia offers to intervene on their behalf.

 

[public hermit]

NO, there's not going to be an extended lead-in. Just read the brief article I'm posting below (...it's like 3 minutes reading time, or less) about how the mafia in Italy is helping the poor and disenfranchised .... and then, if you think you're an agent of moral deliberation, tell me how well the mafia's efforts morally measure up.

Italy's desperate receive mafia offers they can't refuse (BBC news article)

Open for discussion!

These acts would be truly altruistic if they came from a place of selfless concern for the well being of the recipients. Although one cannot make that judgment outright, the precedent set (historically speaking) by the mafia should caution one against assuming it is motivated solely out of concern for the recipients.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

What is real altruism anyway? Christian charity is real altruism. the things that Jesus Christ preached are real altruism. Lower altruism is an aspect of evolutionary survival and higher altruism is a quality of God.

So which theorist are you pulling from when you make a distinction between 'lower' and 'higher' altruism? I'm just wondering, brother Noxot.

Does what the governments in general do really count as altruism? Often I would say no, not in the higher sense though there are people in government that can be good and try to do good. I wonder if the same can be said for the mafia? I think it is a possibility especially if they were more legitimised by Society in general. But the dominance game requires them to be criminals since the winner of the dominance game is the official government. but I would say the mafia, like any good tribe, would take care of its own.

That's something I hadn't considered before, that the mafia might have something positive to contribute to society. How do you think the mafia might become more legitimized in society, on a general level, then?

Intimidating people to vote a certain way is nothing new. forcing a few store owners to vote for them is funny... as if there are so many store owners that they could possibly make a large impact on the voting system. so this article seems like government propaganda to me.

Yes, it's nothing new.

If the mafia does not do it by force then so what if they can buy some votes. Huge corporations buy plenty of things for themselves. Many politicians take advantage of their job, it is the fleshly nature for one to get for themselves as many advantages as they can.

Yes, you're right. I think we would call this 'egoism,' which would be essentially the opposite of altruism, at least from how Auguste Comte conceptualized it, I guess.

Democracy is in some ways an illusion. it's something that allows people to believe that they have a say. The government has to please people so they can keep pleasing themselves. In that article the mafia is pleasing people so that they can be pleased.

I don't know. Is the mafia pleasing people, or holding out a scandalon? I'm not sure I'm clear on which of these two ideas it would really be.

That man killed 20 people. how many people have been killed unjustly by Servants of the government? do you really think the slaughter of so many people in d-day was necessary or required? Other better plans could have been created but human beings are expendable tools to systems that place themselves above humans. And just like humans are tools to the system so too do humans try to use the system as their own tool.

Is that what the mafia is doing, you think? I'm not sure. Maybe I have too many Hollywood visions of the "Godfather" dancing around in my head. Maybe I'm confused about the overall moral essence of the mafia (any mafia really).

 

[Noxot]

So which theorist are you pulling from when you make a distinction between 'lower' and 'higher' altruism? I'm just wondering, brother Noxot.

That's something I hadn't considered before, that the mafia might have something positive to contribute to society. How do you think the mafia might become more legitimized in society, on a general level, then?

Yes, it's nothing new.

Yes, you're right. I think we would call this 'egoism,' which would be essentially the opposite of altruism, at least from how Auguste Comte conceptualized it, I guess.

I don't know. Is the mafia pleasing people, or holding out a scandalon? I'm not sure I'm clear on which of these two ideas it would really be.

Is that what the mafia is doing, you think? I'm not sure. Maybe I have too many Hollywood visions of the "Godfather" dancing around in my head. Maybe I'm confused about the overall moral essence of the mafia (any mafia really).

I never thought I would find myself trying to defend the mafia. Reality is more complex than simple abstracts. there is no such thing as the mafia or the government, only a unique and unrepeatable experience of reality that abides by various kinds of themes embedded in it. I think it was Italy that has very restrictive rules about how businesses are run which tends to favor certain classes and types of people and which restricts and hinders others. They don't want too much competition because they feel that they won't be able to compete if someone competes harder than they do. They have some good points about not being enslaved to the competition of the economy, but at the same time they restrict others from trying to make it in life. God sets all kinds of good beings over us. For all I know some of these businesses are losing themselves to prepare a way for others. I don't know what the best possible outcome could be but I assure you that God has given the mafia good angels as well but how much those people actually follow them I do not know.

God uses the enemies of Israel to help the Israelites and their enemies out. All things are ordered by God's Providence while we remain free. It doesn't mean all that we do is from God but rather that he tries to make use of everything. Higher and lower altruism is as simple as Earth and Heaven or flesh and spirit.

The idea is that the higher realities are whats most important. the starting point and capacity of the animal nature of its own is a kind of naturalistic determinism, to Simply function and abide in this is death but all the basic mechanisms, both good and bad, are both survival mechanisms and also symbolic crystallizations of higher realities.

The fleshly sphere is a moment of spirit crystallized, but we can often become stuck in this "law" rather than to abide in the spirit which is to live on every word that comes from the mouth of God. So someone that was born with a highly compassionate nature, which means compassion comes natural to them, is in some ways not very virtuous. it would be like thinking that someone is great because they inherited a bunch of riches from their parents. So there is the outer man and the Inner Man. The inner man's virtues and life is much more meaningful then to function in the sleep of the animal nature alone which is somewhat of an accidental nature since only in the spirit is there freedom and actual autonomy.

 

[jayem]

In desperate times, people will accept assistance when they're made an offer they can't refuse.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

In desperate times, people will accept assistance when they're made an offer they can't refuse.

So, are you implying that the mafia's efforts in Italy during this Pandemic in providing money and assistance to various, struggling people ... is altruistic?

 

[jayem]

So, are you implying that the mafia's efforts in Italy during this Pandemic in providing money and assistance to various, struggling people ... is altruistic?

Quite the opposite. Though I'm attempting a bit of jocularity. Did you read The Godfather? Or see the 1st movie with Marlon Brando playing the Godfather, Don Vito Corleone? The phrase "I'll make him an offer he can't refuse" has become a classic line. It's Don Vito's backhand way of saying "I'll pay him fairly, but in return, he will give me what I want. Or else." That seems to be what's happening in Italy. The Mafia will provide assistance to the needy. But you can be sure that at some point, they will extract their pound of flesh

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Quite the opposite. Though I'm attempting a bit of jocularity. Did you read The Godfather? Or see the 1st movie with Marlon Brando playing the Godfather, Don Vito Corleone? The phrase "I'll make him an offer he can't refuse" has become a classic line. It's Don Vito's backhand way of saying "I'll pay him fairly, but in return, he will give me what I want. Or else." That seems to be what's happening in Italy. The Mafia will provide assistance to the needy. But you can be sure that at some point, they will extract their pound of flesh

Good points, jayem. Although I'll have to admit that I haven't read any of the "Godfather" books, but I think I did see one of the movies when I kid. I did see the movie, "the Road to Perdition" and I thought it was pretty good, too.

So, at this point, would you agree with me that what the mafia is doing in Italy doesn't really count as altruism (or just plain generosity, for that matter)?

 

[jayem]

Good points, jayem. Although I'll have to admit that I haven't read any of the "Godfather" books, but I think I did see one of the movies when I kid. I did see the movie, "the Road to Perdition" and I thought it was pretty good, too.

So, at this point, would you agree with me that what the mafia is doing in Italy doesn't really count as altruism (or just plain generosity, for that matter)?

I definitely agree. There may be a few mafiosi who are altruistically motivated to help their connazionali. But for the most part, this is business.

 

[Ken-1122]

NO, there's not going to be an extended lead-in. Just read the brief article I'm posting below (...it's like 3 minutes reading time, or less) about how the mafia in Italy is helping the poor and disenfranchised .... and then, if you think you're an agent of moral deliberation, tell me how well the mafia's efforts morally measure up.

Italy's desperate receive mafia offers they can't refuse (BBC news article)

Open for discussion!

Though I didn't read the article, terrorist organizations have a long history of helping the poor; it's an excellent recruiting tool. The KKK used to feed poor white people, Islamic terror groups feeding the poor in their communities, using their wealth to get on the good side of the poor is nothing new with violent terror organizations

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Though I didn't read the article, terrorist organizations have a long history of helping the poor; it's an excellent recruiting tool. The KKK used to feed poor white people, Islamic terror groups feeding the poor in their communities, using their wealth to get on the good side of the poor is nothing new with violent terror organizations

That's a good point to consider, too. From what you're saying here through the instances you've cited, it sounds like you don't think any of what the italian mafia is doing lately in light of the Covid-19 outbreak counts as genuine altruism. I think most of us would agree with that.