Does the OT say not to lie?

[RaymondG]

Hi Raymond. There is a profound TRUTH in this. What it means is that it is not WE who are STRONG. It is GOD'S strength IN us. Not our OWN strength.

"I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." ~Phil 4:13

Yes there are many truths therein......which are revealed as we are ready to hear/receive them.....which cannot be done if we feel we have already gained all there is to be gained from any particular verse.

 

[brinny]

Yes, I agree we need to considered more the effects of lying and what a lie is. The OT states that those that are weak (genuinely weak..) should say that they are strong....

This would imply, on the surface, that you can become what you say you are.......so the lie becomes the truth.....therefore we cant really lie about other selves....in the long run.

For this cause, I never call out "sick," without cause, neither say that I am even if my body tells me otherwise.

Now the discuss of lying about other things or people outside of ourselves is an issue needing more time....and i may or may not need to pass around an offering plate after explaining........

See post #37.

 

[W2L]

I hate lies.
But I can't help thinking that some lies, under some circumstances, are ok.
After all, Rahab hid the spies and lied to the king of Jericho - she said that they had left the city when all the time they were under the roof. She is commended in the book of Hebrews for her faith, Hebrews 11:31, rather than condemned for her lying.

Thank you.

 

[RaymondG]

See post #37.

see post 41

 

[RDKirk]

Sometimes we are forced in the world to choose the "lesser of evils". Rahab lied to protect Joshua's spies, the midwives lied to protect Moses and the other Hebrew babies. Lying is still technically a sin, but if we are forced to answer something, it is a greater sin to deliver up the innocent to murder.

I would disagree. Rahab was praised for her lie, as were the Hebrew midwives. There is absolutely nothing in scripture that suggests they "chose the lesser of two evils."

There are six things the Lord hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,
a false witness who pours out lies.
and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.

Put that into context. "A lying tongue" is surrounded by examples of intents to do evil, and is placed in that context.

What Brinny said is true. The Lord is a warrior, and a warrior understands the concept of "tactical deception."

 

[W2L]

Yes, I agree we need to considered more the effects of lying and what a lie is. The OT states that those that are weak (genuinely weak..) should say that they are strong....

This would imply, on the surface, that you can become what you say you are.......so the lie becomes the truth.....therefore we cant really lie about other selves....in the long run.

For this cause, I never call out "sick," without cause, neither say that I am even if my body tells me otherwise.

Now the discuss of lying about other things or people outside of ourselves is an issue needing more time....and i may or may not need to pass around an offering plate after explaining........

have you considered that the apostle paul found Gods strength in his own weaknesses?

 

[brinny]

Yes there are many truths therein......which are revealed as we are ready to hear/receive them.....which cannot be done if we feel we have already gained all there is to be gained from any particular verse.

God is emphasizing that it is HIS strength in us and not our "own" strength.

Otherwise we'd be glorifying OURSELVES, wouldn't we? And giving "ourselves" credit for what God HIMSELF has done.

It's in essence, bowing down to the living God, and acknowledging WHO He is and that it is HIS strength ONLY that we can do anything at all.

 

[RDKirk]

Proverbs 12:22
22 The LORD detests lying lips, but he delights in people who are trustworthy.

A warrior who spills the beans to the enemy is not trustworthy.

 

[RDKirk]

Did Rahab commit evil? Did the midwives?

No, they did not do evil, they did good.

A warrior deceives the enemy every chance he gets, and will be commended by his commander for doing so.

 

[brinny]

see post 41

i read it, Raymond, and responded.

I'm particularly pointing out the verse i posted.

Do you agree with that verse?

 

[RaymondG]

have you considered that the apostle paul found Gods strength in his own weaknesses?

Have you considered that we all have the same weakness as Paul was referring to....and we too can recognize it and turn it into the strength of God?

 

[RaymondG]

God is emphasizing that it is HIS strength in us and not our "own" strength.

Otherwise we'd be glorifying OURSELVES, wouldn't we? And giving "ourselves" credit for what God HIMSELF has done.

It's in essence, bowing down to the living God, and acknowledging WHO He is and that it is HIS strength ONLY that we can do anything at all.

Is there any strength outside of God? Is there any credit to be had for yourself? The last like you found yourself weak and you said you were strong instead......how did that work for you?

 

[brinny]

Have you considered that we all have the same weakness as Paul was referring to....and we too can recognize it and turn it into the strength of God?

It's God's strength alone IN us. Not "our" strength.

We cannot turn ANYTHING into the strength of God. It is GOD Who grants us His strength, and by HIS inexplicable grace.

 

[W2L]

Have you considered that we all have the same weakness as Paul was referring to....and we too can recognize it and turn it into the strength of God?

Yes, i have found Pauls words very helpful.

 

[brinny]

Is there any strength outside of God? Is there any credit to be had for yourself? The last like you found yourself weak and you said you were strong instead......how did that work for you?

Pardon me Raymond, but you have totally lost me.

What has your post got to do with my post that you responded to?

 

[RaymondG]

Pardon me Raymond, but you have totally lost me.

What has your post got to do with my post that you responded to?

I have felt the same with your last post.....so maybe it's best he end the discussion here.....and not good can be gained from confusion.

 

[brinny]

I have felt the same with your last post.....so maybe it's best he end the discussion here.....and not good can be gained from confusion.

If you wish.

Nevertheless, this is a very edifying thread, and i'm thankful for it.

Just curious, was it the Bible verse that you found confusing?

 

[RaymondG]

If you wish.

Nevertheless, this is a very edifying thread, and i'm thankful for it.

Just curious, was it the Bible verse that you found confusing?

It was never confusing...I always knew that I knew the meaning, even when my interpretation was incorrect. I interpreted with my carnal mind and the meaning was so clear and simply stated, in the word....i would argue with anyone who felt different.

But once truth is revealed you just have to sit back in awe..... and have no desire to arguing it, as you know the truth is revealed to all who is ready for it, when they are ready. I'll never gotten upset once....with the fact that my infant Sons could not eat Steak with me.....

 

[brinny]

It was never confusing...I always knew that I knew the meaning, even when my interpretation was incorrect. I interpreted with my carnal mind and the meaning was so clear and simply stated, in the word....i would argue with anyone who felt different.

But once truth is revealed you just have to sit back in awe..... and have no desire to arguing it, as you know the truth is revealed to all who is ready for it, when they are ready. I'll never gotten upset once....with the fact that my infant Sons could not eat Steak with me.....

Raymond, i'm still not following you, (especially about your infant Sons could not eat steak with you. i'm totally lost here).

Nevertheless, thank you for your responses, Raymond. it's been lovely conversing with you.

 

[RaymondG]

Raymond, i'm still not following you, (especially about your infant Sons could not eat steak with you. i'm totally lost here).

Nevertheless, thank you for your responses, Raymond. it's been lovely conversing with you.

Sorry, was a lite hearted reference to Pauls statement:
"I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able."