Does the Nicene Creed teach Jesus has flesh in heaven today? (moved from General Theology)

[AnticipateHisComing]

Pretty simple question that I don't have much to add to it.

Does the Nicene Creed teach Jesus has a body of flesh in heaven today?

This thread is not about the question does Jesus have a body of flesh in heaven today. It is only about whether it is taught in the Nicene Creed which is the SOF to post here.

 

[Sabertooth]

The creed doesn't seem to teach that specifically, but it is a summary. Every point on it is more detailed in the Bible.

 

[drjean]

No.

 

[ViaCrucis]

"who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit and of the Virgin Mary, and was made man. He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father. From thence he shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead. Whose kingdom shall have no end."

The eternal Son and Logos became human, became flesh: σαρκωθέντα (sarkothenta "became flesh"), ἐνανθρωπήσαντα (enanthropesanta "in-humaned").

It is this Incarnate God-Man--Jesus Christ--who suffered under Pilate, was crucified, buried, rose from the dead, ascended into the heavens, and is seated at the right hand of the Father, and who will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't think it says so explicitly, however that has been what is traditionally believed.

 

[redleghunter]

Pretty simple question that I don't have much to add to it.

Does the Nicene Creed teach Jesus has a body of flesh in heaven today?

This thread is not about the question does Jesus have a body of flesh in heaven today. It is only about whether it is taught in the Nicene Creed which is the SOF to post here.

Of course as the creed does not indicate at anytime after the Incarnation Jesus loses His humanity.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

"who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit and of the Virgin Mary, and was made man. He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father. From thence he shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead. Whose kingdom shall have no end."

The eternal Son and Logos became human, became flesh: σαρκωθέντα (sarkothenta "became flesh"), ἐνανθρωπήσαντα (enanthropesanta "in-humaned").

It is this Incarnate God-Man--Jesus Christ--who suffered under Pilate, was crucified, buried, rose from the dead, ascended into the heavens, and is seated at the right hand of the Father, and who will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead.

-CryptoLutheran

I don't see how your quote of the creed makes an argument. I will call attention to a contrast in the creed.

It presents a timeless eternal person in the Son of God.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;
by whom all things were made;

Now the description of the incarnation does not use eternal/timeless words.
who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary, and was made man;
He suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven; he was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Of course as the creed does not indicate at anytime after the Incarnation Jesus loses His humanity.

To "teach" something as my OP question asks for, does not mean anything not taught in the text can be imagined and thought it true because it doesn't say anything about it. I see you do acknowledge that "the creed does not indicate" though.

 

[hedrick]

The best you can do is argue that “rose” and ascend imply a body. A spirit doesn’t have a location and thus can’t ascend. Ascend gets the body into heaven. How likely is it that that once there it vanishes? But not as explicit as you might like.

 

[redleghunter]

To "teach" something as my OP question asks for, does not mean anything not taught in the text can be imagined and thought it true because it doesn't say anything about it. I see you do acknowledge that "the creed does not indicate" though.

The creed teaches God the Son came in the flesh and does not teach that ceases to be other than He is risen from the dead. Now there’s ample church teachings on the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I don't see how your quote of the creed makes an argument.

The Person of the Son became human, became flesh. That Person who is both God and man was conceived, born, lived, suffered, died, buried, rose, ascended, is seated at the right hand of God, will come again in glory--and His kingdom will never end.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[redleghunter]

The best you can do is argue that “rose” and ascend imply a body. A spirit doesn’t have a location and thus can’t ascend. Ascend gets the body into heaven. How likely is it that that once there it vanishes? But not as explicit as you might like.

What leads you to believe the body of Christ disappears? Does He not come again as He ascended? (Acts 1)

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

The best you can do is argue that “rose” and ascend imply a body. A spirit doesn’t have a location and thus can’t ascend. Ascend gets the body into heaven. How likely is it that that once there it vanishes? But not as explicit as you might like.

You could apply a similar assumption to Enoch and Elijah, that because they were taken to heaven without dying, they still have flesh bodies in heaven. I don't think so. Jesus is the firstborn over all creation.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

The creed teaches God the Son came in the flesh and does not teach that ceases to be other than He is risen from the dead. Now there’s ample church teachings on the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The creed does not teach all. Face it, there are many things it does not teach. What it does not teach you can not say it does because it doesn't negate something.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

What leads you to believe the body of Christ disappears? Does He not come again as He ascended? (Acts 1)

Yes, the Son of God will descend from the clouds.

But, if you think that the Son of God descends the same as he ascends. When the Son of God descended, he did not have a body.
Ephesians 4:9 (In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? 10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

How was he made lower?
14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—

But this thread is not meant to argue this, only if it can be argued in GT according to the rules and SOF.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

The Person of the Son became human, became flesh. That Person who is both God and man was conceived, born, lived, suffered, died, buried, rose, ascended, is seated at the right hand of God, will come again in glory--and His kingdom will never end.

Even though you ignore my argument, I will always have a response to you.

I will call attention to a contrast in the creed.

It presents a timeless eternal person in the Son of God.
Now the description of the incarnation does not use eternal/timeless words.

Understand that the Son of God is always the Son of God, even when he comes as the Angel of the Lord, meets Abraham, wrestles with Jacob, appears as fire to Moses, talks to Moses, meets Joshua or is born of Mary. So while he is alwas the Son of God and the Son of God has appeared as fire, that does not teach he is always fire.

John 8:58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Jesus was not talking about his incarnation. He was referencing his eternal spirit.

 

[redleghunter]

The creed does not teach all. Face it, there are many things it does not teach. What it does not teach you can not say it does because it doesn't negate something.

It is a creed is it not?

 

[redleghunter]

Yes, the Son of God will descend from the clouds.

But, if you think that the Son of God descends the same as he ascends. When the Son of God descended, he did not have a body.
Ephesians 4:9 (In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? 10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

How was he made lower?
14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—

But this thread is not meant to argue this, only if it can be argued in GT according to the rules and SOF.

You avoided the point made. Jesus Christ had a risen immortal body when He ascended in Acts 1. Then the apostles were told He would return in the same manner.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Even though you ignore my argument, I will always have a response to you.

Understand that the Son of God is always the Son of God, even when he comes as the Angel of the Lord, meets Abraham, wrestles with Jacob, appears as fire to Moses, talks to Moses, meets Joshua or is born of Mary. So while he is alwas the Son of God and the Son of God has appeared as fire, that does not teach he is always fire.

John 8:58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Jesus was not talking about his incarnation. He was referencing his eternal spirit.

The Incarnation is not a theophany; the Incarnation is the union of Deity and humanity in the one Person of the Logos, the only-begotten Son. And as I said already, that Person is the One who was conceived, born, lived, suffered, died, rose, ascended, is seated, and will come again. That Person who is both God and man. As the Creed says.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

You avoided the point made. Jesus Christ had a risen immortal body when He ascended in Acts 1. Then the apostles were told He would return in the same manner.

Did not avoid it, you just ignored it.

Read the text, read other texts on the subject, don't invent meanings to "same manner that are not taught.

Acts 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. 10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”
​

I could invent a doctrine that says the apostles will be back on earth to witness Jesus' second coming, because that is how Jesus ascended. Fortunately there is other scripture that tells us what way Jesus will return.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Mark 13:26 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.

Luke 21:27 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.​

Yes, the Son of God will descend from the clouds.

I highlighted in red the manner scripture and my response shows that Jesus will return.

And while you falsely accuse me of ignoring your argument, you ignored mine.

But, if you think that the Son of God descends the same as he ascends. When the Son of God descended, he did not have a body.
Ephesians 4:9 (In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? 10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

How was he made lower?
14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—