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Does the mythological Archangel Michael predate Judeo-Christianity?

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by ShamashUruk, Feb 22, 2018.

  1. ShamashUruk

    ShamashUruk Hello

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    God refers to himself as Malak-Yahweh in the story of the talking Donkey, Malak-Yahweh is Satan.

    That doesn't say a whole lot of anything. Are you an ancient Israelite?

    This is not really relevant to anything. I am a polytheist, I believe in the Gods of Sumer, your claim of anointing is no more valid than my claim of belief in those many Gods, one thing is true. Sumer predates those ancient Israelite's.

    El is the high God in Canaan, later the Israelite's will adopt El. That is why it is so funny, in origin, El is a Canaanite deity.

    Since you decided to bring up Exodus 6, let's have a look into your Biblical references.

    First off , the personal name Yemuel (Genesis 46:10; Exodus 6:15) is the biblical Hebrew equivalent of Ugaritic ym’il, “Yamm is god.”

    So since we are going to get theological here, let's explore this further.

    The priestly theological treatment of Israel’s early religious history in Exodus 6:2–3 identifies the old god El Shadday with Yahweh:

    And God said to Moses, “I am Yahweh. I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to
    Jacob, as El Shadday, but by my name Yahweh I did not make myself known to
    them.”

    This passage shows that Yahweh was unknown to the patriarchs. Rather, they are depicted as worshippers of El. In Israel El’s characteristics and epithets became part of the repertoire of descriptions of Yahweh. Like El in the Ugaritic texts, Yahweh is described as an aged, patriarchal god (Psalm 102:28; Job 36:26; Isaiah 40:28; cf.
    Psalm 90:10; Isaiah 57:15; Habakkuk 3:6; Daniel 6:26; 2 Esdras 8:20; Tobit 13:6, 10; Ben Sira 18:30), enthroned amidst the assembly of divine beings (1 Kings 22:19; Isaiah 6:1–8; cf. Psalms 29:1–2, 82:1, 89:5–8; Isaiah 14:13; Jeremiah 23:18, 22; Zechariah 3; Daniel 3:25).

    Later biblical texts continued the notion of aged Yahweh enthroned before the heavenly hosts. Daniel 7:9–14, 22 describes Yahweh as the “ancient of days,” and “the Most High.” He is enthroned amid the assembly of heavenly hosts, called in verse 18 “the holy ones of the Most High,” qaddıˆsˇeˆ ‘elyoˆnıˆn (cf. 2 Esdras 2:42–48; Revelation 7). This description for the angelic hosts derives from the older usage of Hebrew qeˇdo¯sˇıˆm, “holy ones,” used for the divine council (Psalm 89:6; Hosea 12:1; Zechariah 14:5; cf. KAI 4:5, 7; 14:9, 22; 27:12.


    The tradition of the enthroned bearded god appears also in a Persian period coin marked yhd, “Yehud.” The iconography belongs to a god, and is shown as Yahweh. Researcher D. V. Edelman has studied the depictions of deities and symbols on coins from the Persian period through the Hasmonean period. She concludes that the late Persian period coins are the first to show any avoidance of depiction of gods other than Yahweh in noncultic contexts; as this single example indicates, Yahweh is evidently represented. Based on this part of Edelman’s study and the reference in Judges 17 to an image, apparently of Yahweh, one might be inclined to suggest
    that ancient Israel tolerated some images of Yahweh outside of the national shrines and condemned images of other deities. In short, the prohibition of images of other deities seems to reflect a general worship of Yahweh that discouraged worship of other deities.

    El and Yahweh are rendered with a similar compassionate disposition toward humanity. Like El, Yahweh is a father (Deuteronomy 32:6; Isaiah 63:16, 64:7; Jeremiah 3:4, 19; 31:9; Malachi 1:6, 2:10; cf. Exodus 4:22; Hosea 11:1) with a compassionate disposition, many times expressed as “merciful and gracious god,” ’e¯l-ra¯hfiuˆm weˇhfiannuˆn (Exodus 34:6; Jonah 4:2; Joel 2:13; Psalms 86:15; 103:8; 145:8; Nehemiah 9:17).

    Both El and Yahweh appear to humans in dream-visions and function as their divine patron. Like El (CAT 1.16 V–VI), Yahweh is a healing god (Genesis 20:17; Numbers 12:13; 2 Kings 20:5, 8; Psalm 107:20; cf. the personal name, reˇpa¯’e¯l, in 1 Chronicles 26:7).

    Moreover, the description of Yahweh’s dwelling-place as a “tent” (’o¯hel) (e.g., Psalms 15:1; 27:6; 91:10; 132:3), called in the Pentateuchal traditions the “tent of meeting” (’ohel moˆ‘e¯d) (Exodus 33:7–11; Numbers 12:5, 10; Deuteronomy 31:14, 15), recalls the tent of El. The tabernacle of Yahweh has qeˇra¯sˇıˆm, usually understood as “boards” (Exodus 26–40); Numbers 3:36; 4:31), whereas the dwelling of El is called qrsˇ, perhaps “tabernacle” or “pavilion” (CAT 1.2 III 5; 1.3 V 8; 1.4 IV 24; 1.17 V 49).

    Furthermore, the dwelling of El is set amid the cosmic waters (CAT 1.2 III 4; 1.3 V 6; 1.4 IV 20–22; 1.17
    V 47–48), a theme evoked in descriptions of Yahweh’s abode in Jerusalem (Psalms 47:5; 87; Isaiah 33:20–22; Ezekiel 47:1–12; Joel 4:18; Zechariah 14:8).

    Other passages include motifs that can be traced to traditional descriptions of El (Deuteronomy 32:6–7). The eventual identification of Yahweh and El within Israel perhaps held ramifications for the continuation of other deities as well. It has been argued that Asherah became the consort of Yahweh as a result of his identification
    with El. The history of astral deities in ancient Israel may have been affected by the identification of El and Yahweh. Perhaps originally associated with El, they became part of the divine assembly subordinate to Yahweh.

    Was El Israel’s Original God?

    A reasonable hypothesis ensues due to one basic piece of information:

    the name of Israel contains not the divine element of Yahweh but El’s name, with the element *’e¯l. If Yahweh had been the original god of Israel, then its name
    El, Yahweh, and the Original God of IsraEL and the Exodus
    might have been *yis´raˆ-yahweh, or perhaps better *yis´raˆ-ya¯h in accordance with other Hebrew proper names containing the divine name. This fact would suggest that El not Yahweh was the original chief god of the group named Israel. The distribution of El and Yahweh in personal names in many so-called early poems likewise points in this direction.

    Proper names do pose difficulties when used to reconstruct religious history, yet when used in conjunction with other evidence, proper names offer admissible evidence. Israel is a very old name, apparently known both at Ebla and Ugarit. When the name began to refer to the historical phenomenon of a people in the Iron I highlands, perhaps it no longer referred to the god to whom it was devoted.

    Biblical texts do attest to Yahweh and El as different gods sanctioned by early Israel. For example, Genesis 49:24–25 presents a series of El epithets separate from the mention of Yahweh in verse 18. This passage does not show the relative status of the two gods in early Israel, only that they could be named separately in the
    same poem. More helpful is the text of the Septuagint and one of the Dead Sea Scrolls (4QDeutj) for Deuteronomy 32:8–9, which cast Yahweh in the role of one of the divine sons, understood as fathered by El, called Elyon in the first line:

    When the Most High (Elyon) allotted peoples for inheritance, When He divided up humanity, He fixed the boundaries for peoples, According to the number of the divine sons:

    For Yahweh’s portion is his people, Jacob His own inheritance. The traditional Hebrew text (MT) perhaps reflects a discomfort with this polytheistic theology of Israel, for it shows in the fourth line not “sons of El” but “sons of Israel.” This passage, with the Septuagint and Dead Sea Scroll reading, presents a cosmic order in which each deity received its own nation. Israel was the nation which Yahweh received, yet El was the head of this pantheon and Yahweh only one of its members. This reading points to an old phase of Israel’s religion when El held a pre-eminent position apart from the status of Yahweh. Apparently, originally El was Israel’s chief god, as suggested by the personal name, Israel. Then when the cult of Yahweh became more important in the land of early Israel, the view reflected in Deuteronomy 32:8–9 served as a mode to accommodate this religious development.

    If El was the original god of Israel, then how did Yahweh come to be the chief god of Israel and identified with El? We may posit three hypothetical stages (not necessarily discrete in time or geography) to account for the information presented so far:

    1. El was the original god of early Israel. As noted, the name Israel points to the first stage. So do references to El as a separate figure (Genesis 49, Psalm 82).60

    2. El was the head of an early Israelite pantheon, with Yahweh as its warrior-god.61 Texts that mention both El and Yahweh but not as the same figure (Genesis 49; Numbers 23–24, discussed in the next section; Psalm 82) suggest an early accommodation of the two in some early
    144 The Origins of Monotheism in the Bible form of Israelite polytheism. If Psalm 82 reflects an early model of an Israelite polytheistic assembly, then El would have been its head, with the warrior Yahweh as a member of the second tier. Yet the same psalm also uses familial language:

    the other gods are said to be the “sons of the Most High.” Accordingly, Yahweh might have been earlier understood as one of these sons.

    3. El and Yahweh were identified as a single god. If El was the original god of Israel, then his merger with Yahweh, the southern divine warrior, predates the Song of Deborah in Judges 5, at least for the area of
    Israel where this composition was created. In this text Yahweh, the divine warrior from the south, is attributed a victory in the central highlands. The merger probably took place at different rates in different parts of Israel, in which case it was relatively early in the area where Judges 5 was composed, but possibly later elsewhere.

    Many scholars place the poem in the pre-monarchic period, and perhaps the cult of Yahweh spread further into the highlands of Israel in the pre-monarchic period infiltrating cult sites of El and accommodating to their El theologies (perhaps best reflected by the later version of Deuteronomy 32:8–9). The references to El in Numbers 23–24 and perhaps Job appear to be further indications of the survival of El’s cult in Transjordan. Beyond this
    rather vaguely defined pattern of distribution, it is difficult to be more specific.


    Depends on the context of the usage of the word "Lord", it can be shown as royalty in certain circumstances. The authority of "Lord" however, does have its limits. I am not sure whether or not you totally grasp this concept at all.

    But either way you will have difficulty placing El or Yahweh per my above posting.
     
  2. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    And you have said a whole lot of nothing
     
  3. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    Your a polytheist
    So you believe in a spiritual realm and many spirits


    Just not the GOD and FATHER of THE LORD JESUS CHRIST


    of course that makes sense sir


    It’s exactly what Satan would like men to believe
     
  4. ShamashUruk

    ShamashUruk Hello

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    I'll bring this back full circle to the OP. Much of what is found in the Bible had already been done. The Bible reanimated polytheism. Essentially you are an occultist, hence, engaging in prayer is an example of that. And I do not know what you mean by "believe in the spirit realm" that makes little sense.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2018
  5. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    Then you are a polytheist in the sense that you believe in cartoon fictional charcters? Because if your a polytheist believing in many gods (and you don’t even understand what a spiritual realm means) then you liken your belief in many gods (given you don’t believe there even is a spiritual realm) to belief in cartoon fictional characters

    And that makes NO sense at all
     
  6. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    Engaging in prayer is talking to GOD who is really there and really hears


    What you are doing sir is stating your a polytheist but not really believing there even are spirits to begin with

    That is really strange and silly

    You borrowed the name and you hide behind this borrowed name

    Because?
     
  7. ShamashUruk

    ShamashUruk Hello

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    None of your argument really makes any sense, this for me is like engaging with someone who is "thick" or "unread", but I will try and sort out what you are getting at.

    Being a monotheist (belief in one God), being a polytheist (belief in many Gods), being a henotheist (belief that one God is worshiped out of many Gods) refers to religion, all 3 are classified in the same manner of theism, none are classified as "cartoon", I do not know where you got that at all. Can you provide references please?

    As I know there is no phraseology in the Biblical text that use the two words "spiritual realm". There is no historical text that uses the phraseology "spiritual realm" either. Can you provide references please?

    I looked in Strong's concordance for "spiritual realm" and that phraseology doesn't exist there either.

    Please provide references, otherwise your points are moot.

    In Christian mythology we see prayer being conducted, however, we can trace praying all the way back to the empires in Akkad (first Semitic speaking people).

    We see prayer being utilized in Islam, Judaism, Canaan, Hittite, as well a variety of Mesopotamian and Indo-Euro cultures.


    If you are referring to "spiritual realm" please see above, please provide references, and please clarify what you mean, this vague and broad sweeping language.


    What name did I borrow? And references please.
     
  8. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    Another thing sir.

    Let’s be clear

    You who do not know GOD refer to HIM as “malek”

    We who know HIM do not
     
  9. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    There is nothing that needs to be said to you

    Religion is quite different that belief in GOD

    You don’t really know what you are saying but you have many words but sir. It is you who are thick and can’t even realize the silliness of it all


    You pretend and imfagune that people are play acting

    Whether they believe in ONE GOD who is THE GOD


    Or if they believe in many lying whispering voices/spirits who profess they are god(s) when in truth they are just the spirits and voices of demons who oppose THE TRUTH
     
  10. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    Again, in your ignorance do not think that you need to teach me


    You don’t
     
  11. ShamashUruk

    ShamashUruk Hello

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    Malakh Yahweh is a messenger in the Old Testament, also it is "Satan". So when you tell me that I do not know "God" to refer to him (assuming that "God" is male) as Malakh Yahweh, it wasn't me who invented the term of Yahweh's messenger, the Malakh Yahweh.

    Can you make this into a comprehensible sentence please?

    The Bible itself refers to religion, James 1:27
    Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

    It doesnt at all say religion is quite different than a belief in God, where did you get that from? References please.

    This is once again incomprehensible, what are you saying, clarify please. Otherwise this is a moot issue.

    I am going to assume that by the use of the word "imfagune" it is a typo and you mean imagine. People generally believe what they believe, and what they believe in usually is stated in their belief systems and customs. Once again, your statement is vague and broad sweeping.


    I have no clue what you mean here as we aren't discussing the history of religion in a vacuum. Instead we are pointing out origins of Biblical monotheism. Which somehow you confuse with voices and or spirits. Please clarify, add references, once again you make a moot point.

    I believe this is what is called a debate, not a teaching session. I just made the assumption you were actually intelligent.

    Also, is there anyway you can make one posting instead of several different postings, and we are straying from the OP.
     
  12. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    I’ll do better than that

    I won’t make anymore posts to you


    How is that?
     
  13. ShamashUruk

    ShamashUruk Hello

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    Much better.
     
  14. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    How deceitful of you to separate what I said and imply that my post was unintelligible

    You can’t understand that what you do is not what we do
    And because you do not know GOD you have no truth or wisdom or authority to speak for the CHRISTIAN.

    You may imagine HIS NAME to be malek

    But we don’t have to imagine anything regarding THE NAME

    We know HIS NAME
     
  15. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    Now you may continue in discussing this with other unbelievers such as yourself


    You are free from my corrections
    I won’t bother you any longer

    When and if you want to know the TRUTH, let me know

    THAT I can share

    Ciao
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2018
  16. ShamashUruk

    ShamashUruk Hello

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    I was under the impression you weren't going to post anymore, what happened? Additionally you haven't made any corrections, you made vague and weird statements at best.

    Christianity adopted into its cultural and Biblical mainframe, early polytheistic practices and even in the New Testament for example the trinity is reminiscent of the triquet in Celtic occultist practices.

    This OP is open to Christians which have responded.
     
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