Does the mythological Archangel Michael predate Judeo-Christianity?

[ShamashUruk]

So then why were they constantly worshiping other deities?

While I agree with you, I have a dissenting opinion here. I think when an atheist is debating with a Christian, they should always infer that Christianity is derived from earlier cultural adaptations.

Quick example, slavery, an atheist will ask a Christian, why does "God" promote slavery or even allow slavery?

This is a really bad question.

It is most likely that slavery might even be traced back to neolithic times and is still prevalent today in society, this isn't a "God" issue, it is a human issue.

I am not aware of the Bible doing anything else than simply reflecting that slavery occurred and even condoning it.

It's not really a strong argument, so I'll get off my soap box now...lol

 

[Nihilist Virus]

While I agree with you, I have a dissenting opinion here. I think when an atheist is debating with a Christian, they should always infer that Christianity is derived from earlier cultural adaptations.

Quick example, slavery, an atheist will ask a Christian, why does "God" promote slavery or even allow slavery?

This is a really bad question.

It is most likely that slavery might even be traced back to neolithic times and is still prevalent today in society, this isn't a "God" issue, it is a human issue.

I am not aware of the Bible doing anything else than simply reflecting that slavery occurred and even condoning it.

It's not really a strong argument, so I'll get off my soap box now...lol

Most Christians, at least in America, who have a basic understanding of the Bible think that Moses literally existed and that he wrote the first five books of the Bible. Such a person is going to have a hard time swallowing anything on your threads, no matter what your sources are.

 

[miknik5]

But.... those people that you are accusing of having been fooled by "lying spirits", were pretty convinced that the information they received came from god....

So what's that about?
How do you know that what you think is god, isn't some "lying spirit" pretending to be god? How would you know?



Actually, I can only take away that there are people who believe that.
And I didn't need this conversation to know that either.



And I'm trying to find out how we can differentiate YOUR claims from the other claims.
The both of you can not be correct.

But both of you could be wrong, off course.

Ummm? What are you saying?
Either you acknowledge there are spirits and a spiritual realm. Or you don’t

But if you don’t then why are you here in any discussion to begin with?

 

[miknik5]

So then why were they constantly worshiping other deities?

Because they knew there was a spiritual realm and they knew this because they did delve into spiritual things through a different way and a different source

Hence divination
Abs hence GOD’s WORD commanding that those who do so should NOT do so

And those who belong to HIM
should NOT entertain such means not listen to any VOICE/SPIRIT but HIS


It’s why, by sending HIS SON into the world, HE shut up the moths of every other spirit who whispers and mutters anything and everything but THE TESTIMONY

Isaiah 8 will tell you all about it

Here’s something else :

Where where are your “wisemen” now?

Let them tell what THE LORD SABBOATH will do

(Look into it)

 

[miknik5]

While I agree with you, I have a dissenting opinion here. I think when an atheist is debating with a Christian, they should always infer that Christianity is derived from earlier cultural adaptations.

Quick example, slavery, an atheist will ask a Christian, why does "God" promote slavery or even allow slavery?

This is a really bad question.

It is most likely that slavery might even be traced back to neolithic times and is still prevalent today in society, this isn't a "God" issue, it is a human issue.

I am not aware of the Bible doing anything else than simply reflecting that slavery occurred and even condoning it.

It's not really a strong argument, so I'll get off my soap box now...lol

I think that you shouldn’t offer, infer, or even talk for a CHRISTIAN

 

[miknik5]

Most Christians, at least in America, who have a basic understanding of the Bible think that Moses literally existed and that he wrote the first five books of the Bible. Such a person is going to have a hard time swallowing anything on your threads, no matter what your sources are.

Yes.

Unless CHRIST was lying about Moses too when HE said it is Moses who spoke of HIM and that if one believed in Moses they should believe in JESUS since he spoke of HIM

But you don’t believe either

 

[miknik5]

Dup

 

[miknik5]

The polytheistic roots of Judaism are utterly undeniable.

Now let's watch the Christians deny this.

Until Abraham

 

[miknik5]

So now you are making fun of the Biblical prophet on Patmos (John). That is what the term is called "hippomancy", I suggest you look up the term. Here I'll do it for you hippomancy

You have no evidence to the contrary that Patmos didn't have a hippodrome on its Island.

no

Just your insight, opinion, suggestion, notion “yeast”

 

[Ygrene Imref]

Cuneiform can explain the adoption of "oral" tradition, such as the epic of Noah and much earlier the epic of Ziusudra. But, for the most part "record keeping" was done orally. Of course this ignores P E J D sources.

Hebrew history is adopted from its surrounding neighbors when they begin in Canaan, there is a lot of cross pollination going on.

There is a polytheistic origin concerning Biblical monotheism, for example, Job 38:6–7 Yahweh the creator-god (like old El?) asks Job if he was present when Yahweh set the cornerstone of the world’s foundations, an ancient event celebrated by the divine beings, here specified as stars. In this passage, the morning stars are clearly parallel to beˇneˆ ’eˇlo¯hm, and on the basis of this verse, U. Oldenburg connects the astral bodies with El.76 The god’s astral association apparently lies behind the polemic against the king of Babylon in Isaiah 14:13 who attempts to ascend into heaven and exalt his throne “above the stars of El” (mimma‘al leˇkoˆkeˇbeˆ-’e¯l).

The astral dimension of such a polemic against a foreign king perhaps lived on in the polemics directed against Antiochus IV Epiphanes in Daniel 8:9–11. The “little horn” grew “even to the host of heaven” and cast some of them down. Although not explicitly connected with El or Yahweh in Israelite religion, Shahar and Shalim seem to continue into Israelite religion. Shahar is known from biblical literature through an allusion to the myth of Shahar ben Helal, the fallen star (Isaiah 14:12).78 Shahar also appears as an element in Hebrew proper names.

Shalem is attested to sporadically in biblical literature, including in the form of proper names such as ’aˇbıˆsˇa¯lo¯m. Proper names with sˇlm as the theophoric element appear also on inscriptions from Arad, Ein Gedi, and Lachish.81 Given their earlier and later attestation as deities, the sun and moon likely continued as deities at this stage as well.

Furthermore, as part of his identification with El, Yahweh continued to be associated with astral deities in the form of the “host of heaven,” as noted by J. G. Taylor83 and B. Halpern.84 Taylor points to passages such as 1 Kings 22:19 and Zephaniah 1:5 as evidence for the association of the host of heaven with the cult of Yahweh.85 And 2 Kings 21:5 mentions Manasseh’s construction of “altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts in the house of Yahweh.” Perhaps as the last phase in the “career” of astral divinities in Israelite religion, biblical texts criticize astral deities within the cult of Yahweh under the rubric of the “sun, moon and the stars.” It is possible that the criticism represented by these prohibitions derived from a perceived threat of the neo-Assyrian astral cult during the Iron II period, but this fact does not diminish the indigenous character of the cultic devotion paid to the sun, moon, and stars. Another text associating the sun and moon as part of Yahweh’s military host is Joshua 10:12.88 Some biblical scholars judge El as indigenous and Israelite whereas others view the host of heaven and astral deities as foreign and non-Israelite. Yet given the biblical acceptance of El (under the guise of his identification with Yahweh) and the condemnations of astral deities, one might argue that biblical historiography has influenced the differing scholarly assessments of El and astral deities.

The astral background of El’s family versus Baal’s background as a storm-god may lie at the root of Baal’s status as an outsider to this family. Baal’s outsider 64 The Structures of Divinity status is expressed through the family metaphor in CAT 1.24.25–26 where the moon-god Yarih is called the “brother-in-law of Baal.” The family metaphor can be extended to include outsider figures through a divine marriage between an insider deity and outsider deity.

Ok.

 

[ShamashUruk]

I think that you shouldn’t offer, infer, or even talk for a CHRISTIAN

Christian mythology develops from polytheism, why would I not engage with Christians?

Until Abraham

Abraham (if he existed), engages in polytheistic practices with priest Melchezedik, so no "not until Abraham", he also comes from Ur and Ur is polytheistic. He does follow his personal God, this differentiates between the Judeo-Christian God and what Ibrhim or Abram or Abraham was referring to.

no

Just your insight, opinion, suggestion, notion “yeast”

I didn't invent the word "hippodrome" and I certainly didn't invent the word "hippomancy" these are practices enagaged in by ancient Israelite's, Hittite's, Canaanite's and other cultures.

Hence, it's not my opinion as you so accuse me of making.

Have you even read your Bible? I challenge you to do so and get back with me.

You make vague claims such as and according to you "Bible is truth" without substantiating anything or providing any evidence that substantiates the Biblical passages.

Please clarify what you mean, it's hard to play guessing games.

 

[Uber Genius]

While I agree with you, I have a dissenting opinion here. I think when an atheist is debating with a Christian, they should always infer that Christianity is derived from earlier cultural adaptations.

Quick example, slavery, an atheist will ask a Christian, why does "God" promote slavery or even allow slavery?

This is a really bad question.

It is most likely that slavery might even be traced back to neolithic times and is still prevalent today in society, this isn't a "God" issue, it is a human issue.

I am not aware of the Bible doing anything else than simply reflecting that slavery occurred and even condoning it.

It's not really a strong argument, so I'll get off my soap box now...lol

A study of the origins of texts quickly yields authors writing in the context of their culture. We see elements of OT Stories 1000 years before the OT text. Mesopotamian creation and flood accounts abound with striking similarity to Pentateuch accounts.

So doesn't all historical knowledge proceed this way. It is only the inerrantist who supports dictation theory that has to account for the similarities with earlier pagan accounts.

 

[ShamashUruk]

A study of the origins of texts quickly yields authors writing in the context of their culture. We see elements of OT Stories 1000 years before the OT text. Mesopotamian creation and flood accounts abound with striking similarity to Pentateuch accounts.

I am not clear on your stance here, Old Testament refers to Shekinah and in Mesopotamia is a female Goddess with relation to Inanna and her temples throughout Mesopotamia, specifically Sumer before it was considered Mesopotamia.

Yes, authors did write in context of their culture. Such as An being called An in Sumer and An being called Anu in Semitic Akkad, as the Akkadians firstly develop Semitic tongue.

That is misleading to say "We see elements of OT Stories 1000 years before the OT text," there is no OT stories before the OT text, as you miss the element or writings of Cuneiform which clearly predate OT writings.

 

[Uber Genius]

I am not clear on your stance here, Old Testament refers to Shekinah and in Mesopotamia is a female Goddess with relation to Inanna and her temples throughout Mesopotamia, specifically Sumer before it was considered Mesopotamia.

Yes, authors did write in context of their culture. Such as An being called An in Sumer and An being called Anu in Semitic Akkad, as the Akkadians firstly develop Semitic tongue.

That is misleading to say "We see elements of OT Stories 1000 years before the OT text," there is no OT stories before the OT text, as you miss the element or writings of Cuneiform which clearly predate OT writings.

So your last statement is not supported by any OT Scholar. in fact you seemed to have misread my statement as you make the very same point I made in your rebuttal.

Here is the result of a 30-second search on one story, the flood account. ELEMENTS of Gilgamesh account that predate OT flood account

For more info see:noahs-flood

 

[ShamashUruk]

So your last statement is not supported by any OT Scholar. in fact you seemed to have misread my statement as you make the very same point I made in your rebuttal.

Here is the result of a 30-second search on one story, the flood account. ELEMENTS of Gilgamesh account that predate OT flood account

For more info see:noahs-flood

Not really you just structured what you stated oddly.

The portrayal of the Word of God as a female entity in Judaism (Shekhinah) has a parallel in Mesopotamia: Ištar as the Word of God. In the Assyrian oracles, called the “words of Ištar,” the goddess speaks as the mother aspect of the supreme god, but can also be viewed as god’s “spirit” or “breath,” which resides in the heart of the prophet, inspires him or her, and speaks through his or her lips, thus being the functional equivalent of the Biblical “Spirit of God” (the “Holy Spirit”). It should be noted that the Biblical Holy Spirit was likewise originally female, and the masculine gender of the Christian Holy Spirit (the third Person of the Trinity) is only the result of a relatively late (4th century) development. Thus, in both cases, the word of God is viewed as a female entity that unites with a human: with the prophet in Assyria, and with the Zaddiq in Jewish mysticism. The Christian Holy Spirit has been equated with the Old Testament prophetic Spirit since the early second century and made explicit in the formulation of the Nicene Creed (4th century): “We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who … has spoken through the prophets."

Okay so Gilgamesh predates the Biblical OT, not sure what your aim is here.

That's like me telling you there is a story in the Bible about King Og and then.......

What is your point?

 

[miknik5]

Christian mythology develops from polytheism, why would I not engage with Christians?

Abraham (if he existed), engages in polytheistic practices with priest Melchezedik, so no "not until Abraham", he also comes from Ur and Ur is polytheistic. He does follow his personal God, this differentiates between the Judeo-Christian God and what Ibrhim or Abram or Abraham was referring to.

I didn't invent the word "hippodrome" and I certainly didn't invent the word "hippomancy" these are practices enagaged in by ancient Israelite's, Hittite's, Canaanite's and other cultures.

Hence, it's not my opinion as you so accuse me of making.

Have you even read your Bible? I challenge you to do so and get back with me.

You make vague claims such as and according to you "Bible is truth" without substantiating anything or providing any evidence that substantiates the Biblical passages.

Please clarify what you mean, it's hard to play guessing games.

It’s good that Abraham recognized and acknowledged “Melchizedek” as priest of GOD most high


That’s the whole point and difference between those who profess to know god(s)

And those who truly do know HIM

 

[ShamashUruk]

It’s good that Abraham recognized and acknowledged “Melchizedek” as priest of GOD most high


That’s the whole point and difference between those who profess to know god(s)

And those who truly do know HIM

Abraham is not a Jew, Melchezedik is Canaanite priest.

They aren't worshiping the Judeo-Christian God.

Yes he Melchezedik is priest of the most high God in Canaan, El Elyon which is a special title of El as "God most High" and is known as El.

In Canaan El is the sky God, similar to Anu in Akkadian is the sky God.

They were worshiping a Canaanite deity, and you silly Christians think they were worshiping Gods.

Here a little reference on the Canaanite religion

Canaanite Religion - New World Encyclopedia


El Elyon is called "God Most High" in Genesis 14.18–19 as the God whose priest was Melchizedek king of Salem. Psalm 78:35 appears to identify El Elyon and the Hebrew God, Elohim, also called Yahweh (the Lord).

Yahweh is introduced later, but El is the Canaan high God.

Praise be to El....hahahaha

 

[miknik5]

Abraham is not a Jew, Melchezedik is Canaanite priest.

They aren't worshiping the Judeo-Christian God.

Yes he Melchezedik is priest of the most high God in Canaan, El Elyon which is a special title of El as "God most High" and is known as El.

In Canaan El is the sky God, similar to Anu in Akkadian is the sky God.

They were worshiping a Canaanite deity, and you silly Christians think they were worshiping Gods.

Here a little reference on the Canaanite religion

Canaanite Religion - New World Encyclopedia


El Elyon is called "God Most High" in Genesis 14.18–19 as the God whose priest was Melchizedek king of Salem. Psalm 78:35 appears to identify El Elyon and the Hebrew God, Elohim, also called Yahweh (the Lord).

Yahweh is introduced later, but El is the Canaan high God.

Praise be to El....hahahaha

You who do not know GOD can (at arms length) supply as many names as you want.

But in truth HIS SHEEP who Know HIS VOICE do not need for any man to teach them

The anointing which we have received is real. It’s why we won’t and don’t listen to any other voice

Abraham, out from his fathers house and his father many gods heard GOD’s VOICE, and listened

I don’t understand your ending embellishment of laughter

But....okay

 

[miknik5]

Abraham is not a Jew, Melchezedik is Canaanite priest.

They aren't worshiping the Judeo-Christian God.

Yes he Melchezedik is priest of the most high God in Canaan, El Elyon which is a special title of El as "God most High" and is known as El.

In Canaan El is the sky God, similar to Anu in Akkadian is the sky God.

They were worshiping a Canaanite deity, and you silly Christians think they were worshiping Gods.

Here a little reference on the Canaanite religion

Canaanite Religion - New World Encyclopedia


El Elyon is called "God Most High" in Genesis 14.18–19 as the God whose priest was Melchizedek king of Salem. Psalm 78:35 appears to identify El Elyon and the Hebrew God, Elohim, also called Yahweh (the Lord).

Yahweh is introduced later, but El is the Canaan high God.

Praise be to El....hahahaha

Lord was also introduced a little later

In exodus 6 to be exact

Possibly because men have a hard time acknowledging GOD most HIGH so GOD broke it down for the simple

LORD

Means someone who has authority over you

 

[miknik5]

KJV. EXODUS 6

2And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: 3And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them. 4And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers. 5And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant. 6Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments: 7And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. 8And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I am the LORD.


(I don’t really like the American standard version that this forum seems to favor. It’s what is linked when one references bible scripture. I don’t know how to change it so I’m copying the scriptures here in KJV)