Does the mythological Archangel Michael predate Judeo-Christianity?

ShamashUruk

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Interesting conversations and also this may concern the Greek Magical Papyri, "the Archangel Michael predates judeo-christianity, and is so ancient that you can trace his name back to around at least 1600 BCE, over a thousand years before he is ever mentioned in Judaism.

He appears to have found his way into Hebrew via the Babylonian Exile in the fifth century BCE, and through neighboring West Semitic cultures where he was a prominent chthonic martial deity called Mikal.

Mikal was an epithet of Reshef, as an archaic deity of Cyprus. On the mainland Reshef in turn may have been an epithet of Nergal, who is often invoked in Mesopotamian magic in similar roles to that discussed above.

The Underworld role of *all* these figures is critical."
 
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miknik5

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Interesting conversations and also this may concern the Greek Magical Papyri, "the Archangel Michael predates judeo-christianity, and is so ancient that you can trace his name back to around at least 1600 BCE, over a thousand years before he is ever mentioned in Judaism.

He appears to have found his way into Hebrew via the Babylonian Exile in the fifth century BCE, and through neighboring West Semitic cultures where he was a prominent chthonic martial deity called Mikal.

Mikal was an epithet of Reshef, as an archaic deity of Cyprus. On the mainland Reshef in turn may have been an epithet of Nergal, who is often invoked in Mesopotamian magic in similar roles to that discussed above.

The Underworld role of *all* these figures is critical."
Satan was the one who taught the sons of men to practice divination

All the myths and legends that you read have distortions of GOD’s TRUTH running through them


Michael is Michael the archangel
Any other suggestions of Michael in ancient literature is simply the result of Satan tweaking the truth and feeding it to superstitious men who delved into spiritual realms and got an earful from lying whispering spirits

A portion and a distortion of the truth
 
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ShamashUruk

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Satan was the one who taught the sons of men to practice divination

All the myths and legends that you read have distortions of GOD’s TRUTH running through them


Michael is Michael the archangel
Any other suggestions of Michael in ancient literature is simply the result of Satan tweaking the truth and feeding it to superstitious men who delved into spiritual realms and got an earful from lying whispering spirits

A portion and a distortion of the truth

Are you saying that anything that existed before the Israelite's is not truthful and was inherently made up by men? Interesting, then you miss a lot of facts in that statement.

1) The Israelite's come out of Canaan and originally are polytheistic (worship many Gods)

2) This then means that anyone before Abraham is not an Israelite, including Noah, hence by your standard Noah is "twisted truth"

3) Divination is similarly seen in the book of Revelations with John on Patmos. On Patmos a hippodrome was found, a hippodrome was used on Patmos for horse racing and horse gambling. John makes references to horseman of the apocalypse, this is called horse divination or hippomancy, a form of divination, are you then saying that John engaged in divination?

Please show evidences for "satan tweaking the truth", please show me the phraseology in the Bible wherein that exact statement is used.

Furthermore, in Christian mythology we see the character Satan as being Anglicized in early Israelite texts. Also, the noun "Satan" is improper usage in Christian mythos. Similar to references in Isaiah of "Lucifer" being an actual deity are lacking, as the two are conflated and tied as mythical creatures in Biblical epics. As you will see below in the epic of Balaam, YHWH appears as "satan". Also, Lucifer is a fatally mistranslated.

The origins of "Satan" comes from an Anglicization of the Hebrew common noun שָׂטָן and the noun has been related etymologically to a variety of geminate, third weak and hollow verbs in Hebrew and in the cognate languages. These proposals include verbs meaning 'to stray' (AI ~IT, Heb ~THtEth ~TY, Akk ,SG!U I and Syr ST ), 'to revolt/fall away' (Aram swr, Mandaean sWTand Heb swr), 'to be unjust' (Ar ~TI), 'to bum' (Syr swr and Ar ~YT) and 'to seduce' (Eth ~TY and Reb ~TH). These proposals require discounting the nun of the noun satan as part of the root, and attributing it to an *-an suffix which has been appended to a nominal base. There are two reasons why it is unlikely that the nun should be attributed to an *-tin suffix. Firstly, the *-an suffix when appended to a nominal base normally results in an abstract noun, an adjective or a diminutive. The noun 'satan' fits none of these categories. Secondly, in Hebrew *-an is typically realized as -on. There are exceptions, but among the standard conditions proposed to explain the atypical retention of *-an, none apply to the noun satan. Therefore it is preferable to regard the nun as part of the root and analyze satan as a noun of the common qatal pattern. The fact that the geminate, third weak and hollow verbs listed above have meanings that are arguably appropriate to Satan should be viewed as resulting from interaction between popular etymological speculation and developing traditions about Satan. The root *STN is not evidenced in any of the cognate languages in texts that are prior to or contemporary with its occurrences in the Hebrew Bible. KJ3 (918) incorrectly cites an alleged Akk satanu, but the fonns to which KB refers are St lexical participles of etemuJetenu (AHW, 260). Thus the meaning of the noun satan must be determined solely on the basis of its occurrences in the Hebrew Bible, where it occurs in nine contexts. In five it refers to human beings and in four it refers to celestial beings. When it is used of human beings it is not a proper name, but rather a common noun meaning 'adversary' in either a political or military sense, or 'accuser' when it is used in a legal context. In the celestial realm there is only one context in which. Satan might be a proper name. In the other three contexts it is a common noun, meaning 'adversary' or 'accuser'. [P.L.D.] Σαταν and Σατανᾶς are transliterations of the Hebrew satan (cf. 3 Kgdms 11:14.23; Sir 21 :27) or Aram satana and mean 'adversary'. In such instances 8HevXIIgr and the• LXX translate the Hebrew "expression with Diabolos ~Devil, meaning 'the Slanderer'. Ho Sataniis (rarely used without article) thus designates the opponent of ~God. In the NT Satanas and Diabolos can refer to the same supernatural being (cf. Rev 20:2) and can thus be interchanged (cf. Mark 1:13 and Luke 4:2). This highest evil being can also be referred to as ho poneros ('the evil one', cf. Matt 13: 19) and 110 peira:.on ('the tempter' - cf. Malt 4:3: I Thess 3:5). [C.B.l] Although the noun satan has no cognates in texts that are prior to or contemporary with the biblical texts in which it occurs, there are in Akkadian three legal terms meaning 'accuser' that can have both terrestrial and celestial referents. These terms are bel dababi, bel dini and akil karsi. Each can refer either to a human legal opponent or to a deity acting as an accuser in a legal context,and thus each term functionally parallels the noun satan even though there is no etymological relationship. For example, the deities Nanay and Mar-Biti are charged to guarantee an agreement sworn in their names. Should anyone attempt to alter the agreement, these deities were to assume the role of legal adversaries (EN.MES d;-n;-su [VAS I 36 iiiA». Standing behind this notion of deities playing legal roles with respect to earthly happenings is the wellknown idea of the divine -'council, acting as a judiciary body. The noun satan is used of a divine being in four contexts in the Hebrew Bible. In Numbers 22:22-35 Balaam, a non-Israelite seer, sets out on a journey, an act that incurs God's wrath. God responds by dispatching his celestial messenger, the malak YHWH, described as a satan, who stations himself on the road upon which Balaam is travelling. Balaam is ignorant of the swordwielding messenger but his donkey sees the danger and twice avoids the messenger, for which Balaam beats the animal. The messenger then moves to a place in the road where circumvention is impossible. The donkey lays down, and is again beaten. At this point Yahweh gives the donkey the ability to speak, and she asks why Balaam has beaten her. A conversation ensues and then Yahweh uncovers Balaam's eyes so that he can see the sword-wielding messenger, and Balaam falls down to the ground. The messenger asks why Balaam struck his donkey and then asserts that he has come forth as a satan because Balaam undertook his journey hastily. The messenger states that, had the donkey not seen him and avoided him, he would have killed Balaam. Balaam then admits his guilt, saying that he did not know that the messenger was standing on the road, and offers to tum back if the messenger judges the journey to be wrong. The messenger gives Balaam permission to continue, but adjures him to speak only as instructed. Prior to the work of GROSS (1974) most scholars attributed the above passage to the J source, which would have made it the earliest context in which the noun satan is applied to a celestial being. However, since Gross' study the tendency has been to date the passage to the sixth century BC or later. With the exception of the above story, which obviously ridicules Balaam, he is characterized in an extremely positive way in Num 22-24. Outside those chapters, the first clear indications that he is being viewed negatively are attributable to the P source (Num 31: 16) and Dtr 2 (Josh 13:22), both of which are typically dated to the sixth century. Thus the available evidence suggests that Balaam was viewed positively in earlier, epic tradition, but negatively in later sources. Given that the story under discussion views Balaam negatively, the story most likely stems from a later source. As can be readily seen, the heavenly being who acts as a satan in Numbers 22 has very little in common with later conceptualizations of Satan. He (satan) is Yahweh's messenger, not his archenemy, and he acts in accordance with Yahweh's will rather than opposing it. Indeed, Yahweh's messenger here, as elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible, is basically an hypostatization of the deity. Hence, as KLUGER (1967:75) has remarked, the 'real' satan/adversary in Numbers 22 is none other than Yahweh himself. The opening chapter of the book of Job describes a gathering of the -"sons of God', i.e. a meeting of the divine -'council. Present at this gathering is a being called "Hassatan": this is the common noun satan preceded by the definite nrticle. The definite article makes it virtually certain that satan is not a proper name (contra B. WALTKE & M. O'CONNOR, An Introduction to Biblical Hebrew Syntax [Winona Lake 1990] 249).

Lucifer does not exist until the stroke of a pen in 382 CE. The genealogy is straightforward to plot. First, the apparent name given in Isaiah 14:12 is not Lucifer, but Hêlēl Ben Šaḥar; this is transformed in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, into Ἑωσφόρος (Heōsphóros): dawn bringer. This is the specific Greek term for the god of the planet Venus when it rises. There is no ambiguity in its astral identification as the morning star. In Greek mythology, Heōsphóros was twinned with Hesperos; they are respectively morning and evening star. Even in identifying these as gods of the star, the planet Venus herself remained that of the love
goddess Aphrodite, a distinction which needs to be made. The Septuagint, with its rendition of Heōsphóros, was not, however, used as the basis for the Latin Vulgate, which replaced the earlier translations in circulation, collectively known as the Vetus Latina. The Latin Vulgate was the work of St Jerome in a project which commenced in 382 CE, and became the standard text in the Western Catholic Church for the next 1000 years. Instead of using the Greek Septuagint, Jerome went to the Hebrew texts themselves, and thence made the fatal translation ‘Lucifer.’

This is derived from the Latin lucem ferre, light bearer. Clearly this differs from the Greek, ‘dawn bringer,’ although it has the same basic meaning, that of Venus, the morning star. It is only when the Latin Lucifer is translated back into Greek that it becomes Φωσφόρος (Phōsphóros). Evidently, dawn-bringer is not a term that can be used interchangeably with phosphoros, which has the more general meaning of ‘light-bringing,’ and is applied to many gods and goddesses, such as torch-bearing Hecate. It does not identify the source or the character of the light. Though phosphoros can be applied as an epithet to Lucifer, it would be more accurate to specify heosphoros. The mystery of Lucifer is explicitly concerned with the light of dawn, and its attendant qualities – the reddening of the sky and the magical properties of the dew, an oft forgotten elixir.
 
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Satan was the one who taught the sons of men to practice divination

All the myths and legends that you read have distortions of GOD’s TRUTH running through them


Michael is Michael the archangel
Any other suggestions of Michael in ancient literature is simply the result of Satan tweaking the truth and feeding it to superstitious men who delved into spiritual realms and got an earful from lying whispering spirits

A portion and a distortion of the truth

This is the apologetics forum. You're doing it wrong.
 
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ShamashUruk

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This is the apologetics forum. You're doing it wrong.
I like your simple response to MikNik5, much better than my long boring dry sermon about how Satan and Lucifer aren't actually real. Though I am a polytheist, and you are an atheist, but for sake of "argument" I believe in many Gods and you obviously will disagree with me or ask me to "prove it", but that is boring all together. Instead how about we focus on archaeology and mythology concerning this thread? Is that cool with you bro?
 
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Ygrene Imref

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Interesting conversations and also this may concern the Greek Magical Papyri, "the Archangel Michael predates judeo-christianity, and is so ancient that you can trace his name back to around at least 1600 BCE, over a thousand years before he is ever mentioned in Judaism.

He appears to have found his way into Hebrew via the Babylonian Exile in the fifth century BCE, and through neighboring West Semitic cultures where he was a prominent chthonic martial deity called Mikal.

Mikal was an epithet of Reshef, as an archaic deity of Cyprus. On the mainland Reshef in turn may have been an epithet of Nergal, who is often invoked in Mesopotamian magic in similar roles to that discussed above.

The Underworld role of *all* these figures is critical."

It is important to remember the early Hebrews did not "scribe." Record keeping, archives, and libraries were all things civilizations with borders/walls practice - something the Hebrews rejected until they begged for a man-king. In fact, there are specific reason why the Hebrews stayed away from most things one considers to be part of civilization. Remember, also, that the Hebrews were slaves before Moses delivered specific instructions from God to the Hebrews - and were constantly conquered and enslaved (even to this day.)


One of the first things a conquering nation does is killed the learned and (mental/generational) records and record keepers. Then, they destroy the archives and libraries that have anything to do with the knowledge, culture and history of the conquered nation.

Then, they raze the infrastructure so that cultural masonry is destroyed.

Then, they destroy the rest of the population, and enslave those who they believe will submit.


Hebrew history is buried in the minds of the Hebrew, which is why song and tales are so culturally important to Hebrews. It was a fail-safe to preserve the message of God through His people despite the judgments He allowed to befall them. Oldest found does not mean oldest ever.
 
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Nihilist Virus

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I like your simple response to MikNik5, much better than my long boring dry sermon about how Satan and Lucifer aren't actually real. Though I am a polytheist, and you are an atheist, but for sake of "argument" I believe in many Gods and you obviously will disagree with me or ask me to "prove it", but that is boring all together. Instead how about we focus on archaeology and mythology concerning this thread? Is that cool with you bro?

Lol, that's cool with me. I think the rules of the forum insist that Christianity is either attacked or defended, so we couldn't argue even if we wanted to.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Satan was the one who taught the sons of men to practice divination

All the myths and legends that you read have distortions of GOD’s TRUTH running through them


Michael is Michael the archangel
Any other suggestions of Michael in ancient literature is simply the result of Satan tweaking the truth and feeding it to superstitious men who delved into spiritual realms and got an earful from lying whispering spirits

A portion and a distortion of the truth

So how do you know that your religious beliefs aren't the result of "lying whispering spirits"?
 
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miknik5

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I like your simple response to MikNik5, much better than my long boring dry sermon about how Satan and Lucifer aren't actually real. Though I am a polytheist, and you are an atheist, but for sake of "argument" I believe in many Gods and you obviously will disagree with me or ask me to "prove it", but that is boring all together. Instead how about we focus on archaeology and mythology concerning this thread? Is that cool with you bro?
So what you’re saying is you believe in spirits

Just not GOD

Satan, Lucifer, the dragon is real
 
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miknik5

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So how do you know that your religious beliefs aren't the result of "lying whispering spirits"?
Because I didn’t know anything until GOD (HIMSELF) revealed HIMSELF to me

And if you can take away anything from this conversation....

It’s that there is indeed a spiritual realm and spirits


You are now in the midst of a possible discussion with a polytheist (who believes in many gods/spirits... Just not Satan?)
and another who believes in ONE GOD and knows there are many other spirits offering false lies to keep men from coming to THE TRUTH
 
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miknik5

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Lol, that's cool with me. I think the rules of the forum insist that Christianity is either attacked or defended, so we couldn't argue even if we wanted to.
Are you saying that anything that existed before the Israelite's is not truthful and was inherently made up by men? Interesting, then you miss a lot of facts in that statement.

1) The Israelite's come out of Canaan and originally are polytheistic (worship many Gods)

2) This then means that anyone before Abraham is not an Israelite, including Noah, hence by your standard Noah is "twisted truth"

3) Divination is similarly seen in the book of Revelations with John on Patmos. On Patmos a hippodrome was found, a hippodrome was used on Patmos for horse racing and horse gambling. John makes references to horseman of the apocalypse, this is called horse divination or hippomancy, a form of divination, are you then saying that John engaged in divination?

Please show evidences for "satan tweaking the truth", please show me the phraseology in the Bible wherein that exact statement is used.

Furthermore, in Christian mythology we see the character Satan as being Anglicized in early Israelite texts. Also, the noun "Satan" is improper usage in Christian mythos. Similar to references in Isaiah of "Lucifer" being an actual deity are lacking, as the two are conflated and tied as mythical creatures in Biblical epics. As you will see below in the epic of Balaam, YHWH appears as "satan". Also, Lucifer is a fatally mistranslated.

The origins of "Satan" comes from an Anglicization of the Hebrew common noun שָׂטָן and the noun has been related etymologically to a variety of geminate, third weak and hollow verbs in Hebrew and in the cognate languages. These proposals include verbs meaning 'to stray' (AI ~IT, Heb ~THtEth ~TY, Akk ,SG!U I and Syr ST ), 'to revolt/fall away' (Aram swr, Mandaean sWTand Heb swr), 'to be unjust' (Ar ~TI), 'to bum' (Syr swr and Ar ~YT) and 'to seduce' (Eth ~TY and Reb ~TH). These proposals require discounting the nun of the noun satan as part of the root, and attributing it to an *-an suffix which has been appended to a nominal base. There are two reasons why it is unlikely that the nun should be attributed to an *-tin suffix. Firstly, the *-an suffix when appended to a nominal base normally results in an abstract noun, an adjective or a diminutive. The noun 'satan' fits none of these categories. Secondly, in Hebrew *-an is typically realized as -on. There are exceptions, but among the standard conditions proposed to explain the atypical retention of *-an, none apply to the noun satan. Therefore it is preferable to regard the nun as part of the root and analyze satan as a noun of the common qatal pattern. The fact that the geminate, third weak and hollow verbs listed above have meanings that are arguably appropriate to Satan should be viewed as resulting from interaction between popular etymological speculation and developing traditions about Satan. The root *STN is not evidenced in any of the cognate languages in texts that are prior to or contemporary with its occurrences in the Hebrew Bible. KJ3 (918) incorrectly cites an alleged Akk satanu, but the fonns to which KB refers are St lexical participles of etemuJetenu (AHW, 260). Thus the meaning of the noun satan must be determined solely on the basis of its occurrences in the Hebrew Bible, where it occurs in nine contexts. In five it refers to human beings and in four it refers to celestial beings. When it is used of human beings it is not a proper name, but rather a common noun meaning 'adversary' in either a political or military sense, or 'accuser' when it is used in a legal context. In the celestial realm there is only one context in which. Satan might be a proper name. In the other three contexts it is a common noun, meaning 'adversary' or 'accuser'. [P.L.D.] Σαταν and Σατανᾶς are transliterations of the Hebrew satan (cf. 3 Kgdms 11:14.23; Sir 21 :27) or Aram satana and mean 'adversary'. In such instances 8HevXIIgr and the• LXX translate the Hebrew "expression with Diabolos ~Devil, meaning 'the Slanderer'. Ho Sataniis (rarely used without article) thus designates the opponent of ~God. In the NT Satanas and Diabolos can refer to the same supernatural being (cf. Rev 20:2) and can thus be interchanged (cf. Mark 1:13 and Luke 4:2). This highest evil being can also be referred to as ho poneros ('the evil one', cf. Matt 13: 19) and 110 peira:.on ('the tempter' - cf. Malt 4:3: I Thess 3:5). [C.B.l] Although the noun satan has no cognates in texts that are prior to or contemporary with the biblical texts in which it occurs, there are in Akkadian three legal terms meaning 'accuser' that can have both terrestrial and celestial referents. These terms are bel dababi, bel dini and akil karsi. Each can refer either to a human legal opponent or to a deity acting as an accuser in a legal context,and thus each term functionally parallels the noun satan even though there is no etymological relationship. For example, the deities Nanay and Mar-Biti are charged to guarantee an agreement sworn in their names. Should anyone attempt to alter the agreement, these deities were to assume the role of legal adversaries (EN.MES d;-n;-su [VAS I 36 iiiA». Standing behind this notion of deities playing legal roles with respect to earthly happenings is the wellknown idea of the divine -'council, acting as a judiciary body. The noun satan is used of a divine being in four contexts in the Hebrew Bible. In Numbers 22:22-35 Balaam, a non-Israelite seer, sets out on a journey, an act that incurs God's wrath. God responds by dispatching his celestial messenger, the malak YHWH, described as a satan, who stations himself on the road upon which Balaam is travelling. Balaam is ignorant of the swordwielding messenger but his donkey sees the danger and twice avoids the messenger, for which Balaam beats the animal. The messenger then moves to a place in the road where circumvention is impossible. The donkey lays down, and is again beaten. At this point Yahweh gives the donkey the ability to speak, and she asks why Balaam has beaten her. A conversation ensues and then Yahweh uncovers Balaam's eyes so that he can see the sword-wielding messenger, and Balaam falls down to the ground. The messenger asks why Balaam struck his donkey and then asserts that he has come forth as a satan because Balaam undertook his journey hastily. The messenger states that, had the donkey not seen him and avoided him, he would have killed Balaam. Balaam then admits his guilt, saying that he did not know that the messenger was standing on the road, and offers to tum back if the messenger judges the journey to be wrong. The messenger gives Balaam permission to continue, but adjures him to speak only as instructed. Prior to the work of GROSS (1974) most scholars attributed the above passage to the J source, which would have made it the earliest context in which the noun satan is applied to a celestial being. However, since Gross' study the tendency has been to date the passage to the sixth century BC or later. With the exception of the above story, which obviously ridicules Balaam, he is characterized in an extremely positive way in Num 22-24. Outside those chapters, the first clear indications that he is being viewed negatively are attributable to the P source (Num 31: 16) and Dtr 2 (Josh 13:22), both of which are typically dated to the sixth century. Thus the available evidence suggests that Balaam was viewed positively in earlier, epic tradition, but negatively in later sources. Given that the story under discussion views Balaam negatively, the story most likely stems from a later source. As can be readily seen, the heavenly being who acts as a satan in Numbers 22 has very little in common with later conceptualizations of Satan. He (satan) is Yahweh's messenger, not his archenemy, and he acts in accordance with Yahweh's will rather than opposing it. Indeed, Yahweh's messenger here, as elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible, is basically an hypostatization of the deity. Hence, as KLUGER (1967:75) has remarked, the 'real' satan/adversary in Numbers 22 is none other than Yahweh himself. The opening chapter of the book of Job describes a gathering of the -"sons of God', i.e. a meeting of the divine -'council. Present at this gathering is a being called "Hassatan": this is the common noun satan preceded by the definite nrticle. The definite article makes it virtually certain that satan is not a proper name (contra B. WALTKE & M. O'CONNOR, An Introduction to Biblical Hebrew Syntax [Winona Lake 1990] 249).

Lucifer does not exist until the stroke of a pen in 382 CE. The genealogy is straightforward to plot. First, the apparent name given in Isaiah 14:12 is not Lucifer, but Hêlēl Ben Šaḥar; this is transformed in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, into Ἑωσφόρος (Heōsphóros): dawn bringer. This is the specific Greek term for the god of the planet Venus when it rises. There is no ambiguity in its astral identification as the morning star. In Greek mythology, Heōsphóros was twinned with Hesperos; they are respectively morning and evening star. Even in identifying these as gods of the star, the planet Venus herself remained that of the love
goddess Aphrodite, a distinction which needs to be made. The Septuagint, with its rendition of Heōsphóros, was not, however, used as the basis for the Latin Vulgate, which replaced the earlier translations in circulation, collectively known as the Vetus Latina. The Latin Vulgate was the work of St Jerome in a project which commenced in 382 CE, and became the standard text in the Western Catholic Church for the next 1000 years. Instead of using the Greek Septuagint, Jerome went to the Hebrew texts themselves, and thence made the fatal translation ‘Lucifer.’

This is derived from the Latin lucem ferre, light bearer. Clearly this differs from the Greek, ‘dawn bringer,’ although it has the same basic meaning, that of Venus, the morning star. It is only when the Latin Lucifer is translated back into Greek that it becomes Φωσφόρος (Phōsphóros). Evidently, dawn-bringer is not a term that can be used interchangeably with phosphoros, which has the more general meaning of ‘light-bringing,’ and is applied to many gods and goddesses, such as torch-bearing Hecate. It does not identify the source or the character of the light. Though phosphoros can be applied as an epithet to Lucifer, it would be more accurate to specify heosphoros. The mystery of Lucifer is explicitly concerned with the light of dawn, and its attendant qualities – the reddening of the sky and the magical properties of the dew, an oft forgotten elixir.
See?

An earful...

I’m sorry sir all that you wrote won’t negate the TRUTH that there is only ONE GOD and ONE TESTIMONY

Anything outside THAT is a lie
 
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miknik5

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Are you saying that anything that existed before the Israelite's is not truthful and was inherently made up by men? Interesting, then you miss a lot of facts in that statement.

1) The Israelite's come out of Canaan and originally are polytheistic (worship many Gods)

2) This then means that anyone before Abraham is not an Israelite, including Noah, hence by your standard Noah is "twisted truth"

3) Divination is similarly seen in the book of Revelations with John on Patmos. On Patmos a hippodrome was found, a hippodrome was used on Patmos for horse racing and horse gambling. John makes references to horseman of the apocalypse, this is called horse divination or hippomancy, a form of divination, are you then saying that John engaged in divination?

Please show evidences for "satan tweaking the truth", please show me the phraseology in the Bible wherein that exact statement is used.

Furthermore, in Christian mythology we see the character Satan as being Anglicized in early Israelite texts. Also, the noun "Satan" is improper usage in Christian mythos. Similar to references in Isaiah of "Lucifer" being an actual deity are lacking, as the two are conflated and tied as mythical creatures in Biblical epics. As you will see below in the epic of Balaam, YHWH appears as "satan". Also, Lucifer is a fatally mistranslated.

The origins of "Satan" comes from an Anglicization of the Hebrew common noun שָׂטָן and the noun has been related etymologically to a variety of geminate, third weak and hollow verbs in Hebrew and in the cognate languages. These proposals include verbs meaning 'to stray' (AI ~IT, Heb ~THtEth ~TY, Akk ,SG!U I and Syr ST ), 'to revolt/fall away' (Aram swr, Mandaean sWTand Heb swr), 'to be unjust' (Ar ~TI), 'to bum' (Syr swr and Ar ~YT) and 'to seduce' (Eth ~TY and Reb ~TH). These proposals require discounting the nun of the noun satan as part of the root, and attributing it to an *-an suffix which has been appended to a nominal base. There are two reasons why it is unlikely that the nun should be attributed to an *-tin suffix. Firstly, the *-an suffix when appended to a nominal base normally results in an abstract noun, an adjective or a diminutive. The noun 'satan' fits none of these categories. Secondly, in Hebrew *-an is typically realized as -on. There are exceptions, but among the standard conditions proposed to explain the atypical retention of *-an, none apply to the noun satan. Therefore it is preferable to regard the nun as part of the root and analyze satan as a noun of the common qatal pattern. The fact that the geminate, third weak and hollow verbs listed above have meanings that are arguably appropriate to Satan should be viewed as resulting from interaction between popular etymological speculation and developing traditions about Satan. The root *STN is not evidenced in any of the cognate languages in texts that are prior to or contemporary with its occurrences in the Hebrew Bible. KJ3 (918) incorrectly cites an alleged Akk satanu, but the fonns to which KB refers are St lexical participles of etemuJetenu (AHW, 260). Thus the meaning of the noun satan must be determined solely on the basis of its occurrences in the Hebrew Bible, where it occurs in nine contexts. In five it refers to human beings and in four it refers to celestial beings. When it is used of human beings it is not a proper name, but rather a common noun meaning 'adversary' in either a political or military sense, or 'accuser' when it is used in a legal context. In the celestial realm there is only one context in which. Satan might be a proper name. In the other three contexts it is a common noun, meaning 'adversary' or 'accuser'. [P.L.D.] Σαταν and Σατανᾶς are transliterations of the Hebrew satan (cf. 3 Kgdms 11:14.23; Sir 21 :27) or Aram satana and mean 'adversary'. In such instances 8HevXIIgr and the• LXX translate the Hebrew "expression with Diabolos ~Devil, meaning 'the Slanderer'. Ho Sataniis (rarely used without article) thus designates the opponent of ~God. In the NT Satanas and Diabolos can refer to the same supernatural being (cf. Rev 20:2) and can thus be interchanged (cf. Mark 1:13 and Luke 4:2). This highest evil being can also be referred to as ho poneros ('the evil one', cf. Matt 13: 19) and 110 peira:.on ('the tempter' - cf. Malt 4:3: I Thess 3:5). [C.B.l] Although the noun satan has no cognates in texts that are prior to or contemporary with the biblical texts in which it occurs, there are in Akkadian three legal terms meaning 'accuser' that can have both terrestrial and celestial referents. These terms are bel dababi, bel dini and akil karsi. Each can refer either to a human legal opponent or to a deity acting as an accuser in a legal context,and thus each term functionally parallels the noun satan even though there is no etymological relationship. For example, the deities Nanay and Mar-Biti are charged to guarantee an agreement sworn in their names. Should anyone attempt to alter the agreement, these deities were to assume the role of legal adversaries (EN.MES d;-n;-su [VAS I 36 iiiA». Standing behind this notion of deities playing legal roles with respect to earthly happenings is the wellknown idea of the divine -'council, acting as a judiciary body. The noun satan is used of a divine being in four contexts in the Hebrew Bible. In Numbers 22:22-35 Balaam, a non-Israelite seer, sets out on a journey, an act that incurs God's wrath. God responds by dispatching his celestial messenger, the malak YHWH, described as a satan, who stations himself on the road upon which Balaam is travelling. Balaam is ignorant of the swordwielding messenger but his donkey sees the danger and twice avoids the messenger, for which Balaam beats the animal. The messenger then moves to a place in the road where circumvention is impossible. The donkey lays down, and is again beaten. At this point Yahweh gives the donkey the ability to speak, and she asks why Balaam has beaten her. A conversation ensues and then Yahweh uncovers Balaam's eyes so that he can see the sword-wielding messenger, and Balaam falls down to the ground. The messenger asks why Balaam struck his donkey and then asserts that he has come forth as a satan because Balaam undertook his journey hastily. The messenger states that, had the donkey not seen him and avoided him, he would have killed Balaam. Balaam then admits his guilt, saying that he did not know that the messenger was standing on the road, and offers to tum back if the messenger judges the journey to be wrong. The messenger gives Balaam permission to continue, but adjures him to speak only as instructed. Prior to the work of GROSS (1974) most scholars attributed the above passage to the J source, which would have made it the earliest context in which the noun satan is applied to a celestial being. However, since Gross' study the tendency has been to date the passage to the sixth century BC or later. With the exception of the above story, which obviously ridicules Balaam, he is characterized in an extremely positive way in Num 22-24. Outside those chapters, the first clear indications that he is being viewed negatively are attributable to the P source (Num 31: 16) and Dtr 2 (Josh 13:22), both of which are typically dated to the sixth century. Thus the available evidence suggests that Balaam was viewed positively in earlier, epic tradition, but negatively in later sources. Given that the story under discussion views Balaam negatively, the story most likely stems from a later source. As can be readily seen, the heavenly being who acts as a satan in Numbers 22 has very little in common with later conceptualizations of Satan. He (satan) is Yahweh's messenger, not his archenemy, and he acts in accordance with Yahweh's will rather than opposing it. Indeed, Yahweh's messenger here, as elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible, is basically an hypostatization of the deity. Hence, as KLUGER (1967:75) has remarked, the 'real' satan/adversary in Numbers 22 is none other than Yahweh himself. The opening chapter of the book of Job describes a gathering of the -"sons of God', i.e. a meeting of the divine -'council. Present at this gathering is a being called "Hassatan": this is the common noun satan preceded by the definite nrticle. The definite article makes it virtually certain that satan is not a proper name (contra B. WALTKE & M. O'CONNOR, An Introduction to Biblical Hebrew Syntax [Winona Lake 1990] 249).

Lucifer does not exist until the stroke of a pen in 382 CE. The genealogy is straightforward to plot. First, the apparent name given in Isaiah 14:12 is not Lucifer, but Hêlēl Ben Šaḥar; this is transformed in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, into Ἑωσφόρος (Heōsphóros): dawn bringer. This is the specific Greek term for the god of the planet Venus when it rises. There is no ambiguity in its astral identification as the morning star. In Greek mythology, Heōsphóros was twinned with Hesperos; they are respectively morning and evening star. Even in identifying these as gods of the star, the planet Venus herself remained that of the love
goddess Aphrodite, a distinction which needs to be made. The Septuagint, with its rendition of Heōsphóros, was not, however, used as the basis for the Latin Vulgate, which replaced the earlier translations in circulation, collectively known as the Vetus Latina. The Latin Vulgate was the work of St Jerome in a project which commenced in 382 CE, and became the standard text in the Western Catholic Church for the next 1000 years. Instead of using the Greek Septuagint, Jerome went to the Hebrew texts themselves, and thence made the fatal translation ‘Lucifer.’

This is derived from the Latin lucem ferre, light bearer. Clearly this differs from the Greek, ‘dawn bringer,’ although it has the same basic meaning, that of Venus, the morning star. It is only when the Latin Lucifer is translated back into Greek that it becomes Φωσφόρος (Phōsphóros). Evidently, dawn-bringer is not a term that can be used interchangeably with phosphoros, which has the more general meaning of ‘light-bringing,’ and is applied to many gods and goddesses, such as torch-bearing Hecate. It does not identify the source or the character of the light. Though phosphoros can be applied as an epithet to Lucifer, it would be more accurate to specify heosphoros. The mystery of Lucifer is explicitly concerned with the light of dawn, and its attendant qualities – the reddening of the sky and the magical properties of the dew, an oft forgotten elixir.
Lol...
horse divination

Lol

Funny
 
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DogmaHunter

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Because I didn’t know anything until GOD (HIMSELF) revealed HIMSELF to me

But.... those people that you are accusing of having been fooled by "lying spirits", were pretty convinced that the information they received came from god....

So what's that about?
How do you know that what you think is god, isn't some "lying spirit" pretending to be god? How would you know?

And if you can take away anything from this conversation....
It’s that there is indeed a spiritual realm and spirits

Actually, I can only take away that there are people who believe that.
And I didn't need this conversation to know that either.

You are now in the midst of a possible discussion with a polytheist (who believes in many gods/spirits... Just not Satan?)
and another who believes in ONE GOD and knows there are many other spirits offering false lies to keep men from coming to THE TRUTH

And I'm trying to find out how we can differentiate YOUR claims from the other claims.
The both of you can not be correct.

But both of you could be wrong, off course.
 
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ShamashUruk

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Lol, that's cool with me. I think the rules of the forum insist that Christianity is either attacked or defended, so we couldn't argue even if we wanted to.
Of course, Christianity in of itself is reminiscent of older mythology. Now, for atheism, the Biblical epic of Noah is considered mythology, however, I tend to think of mythology as an actual event surrounding the mythology. Take the flood of Noah, and earlier this is the flood of Ziusudra, there could have been multiple floods due to Ice Ages. In Biblical texts the earth "land" is separated in Peleg, but how do we know that the earth wasn't separating due to Ice Ages (actually I think science has proven that it did separate).

Michael or earlier Mikal is due to the way those earlier cultures viewed religion, but there could have been other events surrounding the name "mikal".
 
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ShamashUruk

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It is important to remember the early Hebrews did not "scribe." Record keeping, archives, and libraries were all things civilizations with borders/walls practice - something the Hebrews rejected until they begged for a man-king. In fact, there are specific reason why the Hebrews stayed away from most things one considers to be part of civilization. Remember, also, that the Hebrews were slaves before Moses delivered specific instructions from God to the Hebrews - and were constantly conquered and enslaved (even to this day.)


One of the first things a conquering nation does is killed the learned and (mental/generational) records and record keepers. Then, they destroy the archives and libraries that have anything to do with the knowledge, culture and history of the conquered nation.

Then, they raze the infrastructure so that cultural masonry is destroyed.

Then, they destroy the rest of the population, and enslave those who they believe will submit.


Hebrew history is buried in the minds of the Hebrew, which is why song and tales are so culturally important to Hebrews. It was a fail-safe to preserve the message of God through His people despite the judgments He allowed to befall them. Oldest found does not mean oldest ever.

Cuneiform can explain the adoption of "oral" tradition, such as the epic of Noah and much earlier the epic of Ziusudra. But, for the most part "record keeping" was done orally. Of course this ignores P E J D sources.

Hebrew history is adopted from its surrounding neighbors when they begin in Canaan, there is a lot of cross pollination going on.

There is a polytheistic origin concerning Biblical monotheism, for example, Job 38:6–7 Yahweh the creator-god (like old El?) asks Job if he was present when Yahweh set the cornerstone of the world’s foundations, an ancient event celebrated by the divine beings, here specified as stars. In this passage, the morning stars are clearly parallel to beˇneˆ ’eˇlo¯hm, and on the basis of this verse, U. Oldenburg connects the astral bodies with El.76 The god’s astral association apparently lies behind the polemic against the king of Babylon in Isaiah 14:13 who attempts to ascend into heaven and exalt his throne “above the stars of El” (mimma‘al leˇkoˆkeˇbeˆ-’e¯l).

The astral dimension of such a polemic against a foreign king perhaps lived on in the polemics directed against Antiochus IV Epiphanes in Daniel 8:9–11. The “little horn” grew “even to the host of heaven” and cast some of them down. Although not explicitly connected with El or Yahweh in Israelite religion, Shahar and Shalim seem to continue into Israelite religion. Shahar is known from biblical literature through an allusion to the myth of Shahar ben Helal, the fallen star (Isaiah 14:12).78 Shahar also appears as an element in Hebrew proper names.

Shalem is attested to sporadically in biblical literature, including in the form of proper names such as ’aˇbıˆsˇa¯lo¯m. Proper names with sˇlm as the theophoric element appear also on inscriptions from Arad, Ein Gedi, and Lachish.81 Given their earlier and later attestation as deities, the sun and moon likely continued as deities at this stage as well.

Furthermore, as part of his identification with El, Yahweh continued to be associated with astral deities in the form of the “host of heaven,” as noted by J. G. Taylor83 and B. Halpern.84 Taylor points to passages such as 1 Kings 22:19 and Zephaniah 1:5 as evidence for the association of the host of heaven with the cult of Yahweh.85 And 2 Kings 21:5 mentions Manasseh’s construction of “altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts in the house of Yahweh.” Perhaps as the last phase in the “career” of astral divinities in Israelite religion, biblical texts criticize astral deities within the cult of Yahweh under the rubric of the “sun, moon and the stars.” It is possible that the criticism represented by these prohibitions derived from a perceived threat of the neo-Assyrian astral cult during the Iron II period, but this fact does not diminish the indigenous character of the cultic devotion paid to the sun, moon, and stars. Another text associating the sun and moon as part of Yahweh’s military host is Joshua 10:12.88 Some biblical scholars judge El as indigenous and Israelite whereas others view the host of heaven and astral deities as foreign and non-Israelite. Yet given the biblical acceptance of El (under the guise of his identification with Yahweh) and the condemnations of astral deities, one might argue that biblical historiography has influenced the differing scholarly assessments of El and astral deities.

The astral background of El’s family versus Baal’s background as a storm-god may lie at the root of Baal’s status as an outsider to this family. Baal’s outsider 64 The Structures of Divinity status is expressed through the family metaphor in CAT 1.24.25–26 where the moon-god Yarih is called the “brother-in-law of Baal.” The family metaphor can be extended to include outsider figures through a divine marriage between an insider deity and outsider deity.
 
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ShamashUruk

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So what you’re saying is you believe in spirits

Just not GOD

Satan, Lucifer, the dragon is real
Um, no, incorrect, monotheism (belief in one God) that is you, comes from polytheism (belief in many Gods), I never claimed to "believe in spirits" anymore than you claim to believe in God.

The Israelites (that set apart people to GOD) came about because GOD (personally) revealed HIMSELF to them
Once again wrong, the Judeo-Christian God in Christian mythology is either YHWH or El in those times. In Hosea 2:16 YHWH commands that he is no longer called Baali (BAAL), he quits being BAAL in this verse and is now called "Ishi". Hence, God is Baal, a storm God from Canaan. The Israelite's are structured as polytheistic, and in Babylonian captivity they become monotheistic through henotheism. This is why when it is said "God" revealed himself, it is "YHWH" who reveals, but the earlier form El was already "revealed", meaning this is a second revealing. Simply put the Israelite's are still polytheistic, or the popular Christian term is "pagan" (a derogatory term). Hence, you are a pagan.

To note: Hosea 2:16 is from your own Bible, and there is much more that is contradictorary.

Because I didn’t know anything until GOD (HIMSELF) revealed HIMSELF to me

This doesn't mean much, your "personal experience" is not my personal experience. If I go to a restaurant an order a steak and I don't like it, and you order a steak and like it, our personal experience is different.


And if you can take away anything from this conversation....

It’s that there is indeed a spiritual realm and spirits


You are now in the midst of a possible discussion with a polytheist (who believes in many gods/spirits... Just not Satan?)
and another who believes in ONE GOD and knows there are many other spirits offering false lies to keep men from coming to THE TRUTH
You are guessing what I do and don't believe in, I've only stated I am a polytheist. I could in the same sentence assume you are a Mormon or a Catholic, even though you claim Christian as your religion. You are making assumptions, and illogical assumptions at that. Also, classifying God/spirits is wrong, by that standard you use, Mary could be classified as a God.

I never claimed I "believed in Satan", I actually claimed the opposite, there is no Satan. Your own Bible fails at this.

See?

An earful...

I’m sorry sir all that you wrote won’t negate the TRUTH that there is only ONE GOD and ONE TESTIMONY

Anything outside THAT is a lie
I have no idea what you mean by "truth" and if you are using it in a certain context I'd expect you to explain. If I make a claim is it true? It would have to be proven true, by you stating "truth" in your response is only conjectural.

Lol...
horse divination

Lol

Funny
So now you are making fun of the Biblical prophet on Patmos (John). That is what the term is called "hippomancy", I suggest you look up the term. Here I'll do it for you hippomancy

You have no evidence to the contrary that Patmos didn't have a hippodrome on its Island.
 
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Of course, Christianity in of itself is reminiscent of older mythology. Now, for atheism, the Biblical epic of Noah is considered mythology, however, I tend to think of mythology as an actual event surrounding the mythology. Take the flood of Noah, and earlier this is the flood of Ziusudra, there could have been multiple floods due to Ice Ages. In Biblical texts the earth "land" is separated in Peleg, but how do we know that the earth wasn't separating due to Ice Ages (actually I think science has proven that it did separate).

Michael or earlier Mikal is due to the way those earlier cultures viewed religion, but there could have been other events surrounding the name "mikal".

The polytheistic roots of Judaism are utterly undeniable.

Now let's watch the Christians deny this.
 
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