Does the KJV teach a Pretrib rapture or a Postrib rapture

[Hentenza]

Topic: Does the KJV teach a Pretrib rapture or a Postrib rapture

Affirmative (Pretrib): 1611AV

Negative (Postrib) :Koontzy

Rounds: 10 rounds for a total of 20 posts.

Format: Alternating posts beginning with the negative and ending with the affirmative.

Time limit between posts: 7 days.

Maximum length of each post: unlimited

Sources: Bible used is the KJV only.

This is a formal debate between 1611AV and Koontzy. No one else is allowed to post in this thread. All rules of CF apply including the 20% quote rule meaning that no outside quotes over 200 words will be allowed. Please post links to your quotes.

Peanut gallery is here.

Debate proposal is here.

Good luck to both participants.

 

[Koontzy]

Let me first say that our fellowship as Christians is not based upon the timing of the rapture, but upon the finished work of Jesus on the cross. Me and AV I would say have became friends here on these forums, because our beliefs are alike, even though we may disagree on one or two things.I consider his a brother in christ, and hope our friendship stays

I also want to point out that every believer should study the Book of Revelation, regardless of their viewpoint for the following reasons:

i. It claims the highest level of divine authorship of any book in the bible (1:1), it comes from God to his servants.
ii. Because of its symbolism and the consequent difficulty in understanding it, it is frequently neglected, but all scripture is profitable. The symbolism used is biblical symbolism, if we know our bible we should understand the symbols used.
iii. It has a blessing to those who hear it and take to heart its message (1:3, 22:7).
iv. It has a message to the church throughout all generations and it has blessed and strengthened the church throughout past generations. It also warns us about compromise with the world and idolatry.
v. It has a message that is relevant to us today, just as the letters to the seven churches were relevant then. The states of the seven churches are typical of the various states of churches today.
vi. It is God's last word to the church in the scriptures both in the bible and last to be written and is meant to strengthen us until Jesus comes again.
vii. It has a particular message of comfort to strengthen those undergoing persecution.
viii. It shows the end of history, it shows the defeat of God's enemies and heavenly blessing for God's saints. It shows us a new earth and new heavens where there will be no pain, no suffering and no sin.
ix. It shows us the glorified Christ as in no other book in the bible, it shows us that God is sovereign over earthly affairs despite appearances.
x. It shows us the enemies of the church - Satan, false prophets within, persecution from without - from the state and the world.
​

I am a Post-tribber, but used to be a die hard Pre trib guy. After my studies of the bible I believe that the rapture will be a post trib viewpoint.

I want to first start with a major topic brought up by Pre-tribbers, that is that the church is mentioned 22 times between Rev 1-3 but not mentioned after that. Although I disagree because the word church does not occur in 2 Tim, Titus, 2 Pet, 1 and 2 John and Jude but that does not mean that the church is not present. The fact that the two witnesses are resurrected and ascend into heaven (I would call it a rapture) is good evidence for a post trib rapture since the two witnesses represents the church. Compare the two lampstands of 11:4 with the seven lampstands of 1:20 which are the seven Churches, two being the number of witness (Deu 17:6, John 8:17, 2 Cor 13:1 the disciples were sent out by Jesus in two's, Mark 6:7).

Ok when we look into the old testament we see that no one is raptured, although Enoch and Elijah are mentioned with Pre-tribbers, I believe the bible is clear that both of them experianced death. Throughout the OT, God allowed his people to go through periods of tribulation, while being protected, no reason mentioning all the stories, but Noah,Abraham,Jonah,Job,Daniel, etc..

Lets start with what Paul said. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (2nd Thess 2:1-4) We can see that Paul is speaking about the coming of the Lord and the gathering unto him, but look what he says in the end. He is clearly speaking about the Rapture, but he says it will not occur until the Antichist is revealed.

In Matthew Jesus said
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Theres the great tribulation, and who are these elect? Surely not people saved during the tribulation? for them to be the very elect. I would hope they actually knew their bible.
Jesus goes onto say:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Immediatly after the tribulation the sun will be darkened, the sun will be darkened and the moon ect.. then Jesus will come with the sound of the trumpet and the angels will gather his elect. Then is 1st Thess we read:
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Theres the Lord again with his angels and the trumpet. But look at the last verse. Alot of people dont use this one. Why comfort one another if its a pretrib rapture and we wont need comfort? Comfort for what? I believe the Tribulation period.

These are just my starting points dont wanna waste all my verses in one post

 

[1611AV]

Thank you Brother, I agree our belief in the time of the rapture is insignificant as to our standing in Christ Jesus. I to want to state that Koontzy and I are Brothers in the Lord and have respect unto each other. We both believe in a Rapture and a Tribulation. We disagree on the time period and sequence of these events.

Proverbs 27:17 IRON SHARPENETH IRON; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

OK, Lets get started....

I want to first start with a major topic brought up by Pre-tribbers, that is that the church is mentioned 22 times between Rev 1-3 but not mentioned after that. Although I disagree because the word church does not occur in 2 Tim, Titus, 2 Pet, 1 and 2 John and Jude but that does not mean that the church is not present. The fact that the two witnesses are resurrected and ascend into heaven (I would call it a rapture) is good evidence for a post trib rapture since the two witnesses represents the church. Compare the two lampstands of 11:4 with the seven lampstands of 1:20 which are the seven Churches, two being the number of witness (Deu 17:6, John 8:17, 2 Cor 13:1 the disciples were sent out by Jesus in two's, Mark 6:7).

First off there is no mention of the Church because the Church is gone. We can clearly see in Rev 1:6 is speaking of the 2nd coming of the Lord Jeseus Christ, not the Rapture (Matt 24:30)
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

I believe that the argument that the "word" Church not mentioned in 2 Tim, Titus, 2 Pet, 1 and 2 John and Jude as compared to the actual Church (Body of Believers preserved by the Holy Ghost) holds no water because alltho the word church does not appear the Church is present through out all those books. I know you are not saying the Church is not present in these verses Brother.

As an example: 2 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

And so on...

The two witnesses are found in Rev 11:3-4 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

If the Church was indeed still on earth during the time of the Trib then there would be no need for the two witnesses or the power that God gave them to defend themselves

The only ones on earth proclaiming The Gospel during the time of Trib are:

1.) the 2 witnesses
"I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1.260 days, clothed in sackcloth."
(Revelation 11:3)

2.) the 144,000 (Jews)
"Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel."
(Revelation 7:4) These are the "elect"

Can you imagine Christians these days who don't have enough guts to preach in the streets today to then start preaching with the AntiChrist himself and those who worship him on earth? Never happen!

Ok when we look into the old testament we see that no one is raptured, although Enoch and Elijah are mentioned with Pre-tribbers, I believe the bible is clear that both of them experianced death. Throughout the OT, God allowed his people to go through periods of tribulation, while being protected, no reason mentioning all the stories, but Noah,Abraham,Jonah,Job,Daniel, etc..

Not sure if this is relevant but since you mentioned it. The was indeed a "Rapture" in the OT: According to the Bible, Enoch did not experience death but was taken.
Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

In Matthew Jesus said
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Theres the great tribulation, and who are these elect?

Again, the 144,000 (Jews)
"Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel."
(Revelation 7:4) These are the "elect"

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Immediatly after the tribulation the sun will be darkened, the sun will be darkened and the moon ect.. then Jesus will come with the sound of the trumpet and the angels will gather his elect. Then is 1st Thess we read:
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Ok lets look at these two sets of verses: (Matt) Is talking about Post Tribulation. Why? easy. Notice that the people are able to see him coming. This is the 2nd Coming and not the Rapture. For in the Rapture, We are caught up with him. How? 1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. We will never see it coming brother.

Theres the Lord again with his angels and the trumpet. But look at the last verse. Alot of people dont use this one. Why comfort one another if its a pretrib rapture and we wont need comfort? Comfort for what? I believe the Tribulation period.

We are to comfort one other and not be as those with "no hope".

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:17-18 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Notice that Jesus feet never touch the ground.

These are just my starting points dont wanna waste all my verses in one post

OK Brother. I'll reload and wait

In Jesus,

 

[Hentenza]

This concludes round 1.