Does the Holy Ghost kill?

timewerx

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In Acts 5, written by Luke, Ananias and his wife are supposedly killed (dropped dead before Peter) for lying. Even Peter lied when asked if he was a follower of Christ.

I am trying to find where the Holy Spirit is used to kill a man or men.

Thoughts?

There's a difference somewhat.

Peter lied out of cowardice (something he admits in himself and utterly guilty of it like the tax collector in Luke 18:13)

Annanias and wife lied out of greed.
 
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Phantasman

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There's a difference somewhat.

Peter lied out of cowardice (something he admits in himself and utterly guilty of it like the tax collector in Luke 18:13)

Annanias and wife lied out of greed.

We have to go back to the end of Acts 4 to see that the landowners were all filled with the Holy Ghost from Peters sermon. The others sold what they had in land and laid it at Peters feet. Ananias did the same, yet held back some (yes, in greed). So Peter said that he lied to the Holy Ghost, and when Ananias heard the words, died. His wife tried to back up Ananias story and died as well.

Was Ananias filled with the Holy Ghost, then lied? And are we to take that if others are filled with the Holy Ghost and lie, they will die as well? Did Peter know this lie because of the Holy Ghost? If we are filled with the Holy Ghost, do we still sin?

Just a study, and no conclusions on my part (yet).
 
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timewerx

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We have to go back to the end of Acts 4 to see that the landowners were all filled with the Holy Ghost from Peters sermon. The others sold what they had in land and laid it at Peters feet. Ananias did the same, yet held back some (yes, in greed). So Peter said that he lied to the Holy Ghost, and when Ananias heard the words, died. His wife tried to back up Ananias story and died as well.

Was Ananias filled with the Holy Ghost, then lied? And are we to take that if others are filled with the Holy Ghost and lie, they will die as well? Did Peter know this lie because of the Holy Ghost? If we are filled with the Holy Ghost, do we still sin?

Just a study, and no conclusions on my part (yet).

I'm not sure if "filled" is literal by real world examples.

There another dilemma that you'll only find such few examples of "filled with the Holy Spirit" in the book of Acts, none elsewhere, unless I missed anything:

Acts 2:4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

Then by real world examples, we have Christians who apparently seem "filled with the Holy Spirit" but quite distant from Jesus and benevolence in their ways.

It also seem contradictory that a benevolent spirit would "fill" a person to impose certain limits on their actions or thoughts.
 
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Noxot

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last I heard God was the one who decided when every single one of us die, might as well use deaths for an example to help along others. consider that God decides things from a total point of view and he saw what was best to do in all situations, counting every sparrow that dies, numbering every hair on a persons head. it is human fallen nature that thinks dying is a huge deal. from eternitys point of view our entire life is like a vapor and as if one day has passed. what if God in his great mercy saw that if he did not kill those 2, that they would have effected something very horrible on many people or themselves? God is not evil for killing people, in fact sometimes it is better that they die, as harsh as that might sound. but it is never for another human to decide when someone dies, only God, only God can judge perfectly what needs to happen. remember he always orders all things for the greatest good of all.

has anyone ever been afflicted with something they would rather not, but in the end found how much it served them for good? well God cares so much for us that sometimes he will do seeming irrational things to save us, a chief example is Jesus dying on the cross. it is called "the foolishness of God", and it is much wiser than humans can ever discern on their own.

I don't know if God literally killed those 2 either, it is a possibility and could have happened. those who are perfect will not stumble over anything, those who are weak will stumble over anything.

some very horrible events sometimes happen to people who do not deserve, and God never approves of evil occurring. but God turns such horrible things as little children getting their tongues cut out and being roasted on a iron pan into something amazing, even though we can't see it clearly. from the eternal perspective such events occurring, if God allows, creates an eternal memory of love that forever is a sweet reminder of the Love God has for you and all and the love which overcame you so much in a world of insanity for you to even bare such cruelties in compassion or innocence or true courage. there is a reason why the greatest human being ever to walk this earth, Jesus Christ, died a very horrible death. he was willing because of the power of divine love, it will all make sense once you wake up from this dream world, this illusion of fear and death and torture. in that great day when all know who they are and see clearly all things. the contrast of suffering and hell compared to the divine mercy and love is a wound so deep, so powerful, that it will never be healed. and it does not need to be, for we have God who is our everything. some are willing to suffer for the love of God, love is hard to understand. why do moths fly into the fire and die?

Song 8:6-7
Set me as a seal on thy heart, as a seal on thine arm, For strong as death is love, Sharp as Sheol is jealousy, Its burnings are burnings of fire, a flame of Yah! Many waters are not able to quench the love, And floods do not wash it away. If one give all the wealth of his house for love, Treading down--they tread upon it.


Heb 12:26-29 (YLT)
whose voice the earth shook then, and now hath he promised, saying, `Yet once--I shake not only the earth, but also the heaven;' and this--`Yet once' --doth make evident the removal of the things shaken, as of things having been made, that the things not shaken may remain; wherefore, a kingdom that cannot be shaken receiving, may we have grace, through which we may serve God well-pleasingly, with reverence and religious fear; for also our God is a consuming fire.


2Tim 3:1-9 (YLT)
And this know thou, that in the last days there shall come perilous times, for men shall be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, evil-speakers, to parents disobedient, unthankful, unkind, without natural affection, implacable, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, not lovers of those who are good, traitors, heady, lofty, lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God, having a form of piety, and its power having denied; and from these be turning away, for of these there are those coming into the houses and leading captive the silly women, laden with sins, led away with desires manifold, always learning, and never to a knowledge of truth able to come, and, even as Jannes and Jambres stood against Moses, so also these do stand against the truth, men corrupted in mind, disapproved concerning the faith; but they shall not advance any further, for their folly shall be manifest to all, as theirs also did become.
 
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timewerx

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It also seem contradictory that a benevolent spirit would "fill" a person to impose certain limits on their actions or thoughts.

Forgot to mention this earlier. Note in the in first person narrative of Jesus, He mentioned the Holy Spirit as a comforter, companion, anointing, as a guide into truths, and as some sort of "clothing" from up high.

None from the first person narratives of Jesus would suggest that the Holy Spirit would ever fill us unless I missed anything. To be "clothed" is simple and direct in meaning. A clothing/even armor can provide us with many utilities and can be of invaluable help, even a lifesaver depending on the design and purpose. For certain, a clothing is not meant to fill us up!

Also Jesus made no reference that we can be possessed by the Holy Spirit but people can be possessed by demons. Of course, the other parts of the Bible says another thing but it's distinctly different enough from the first person narratives of Jesus. Since I don't see the Bible as infallible. I found it rather interesting to investigate further.
 
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MikeBigg

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In Acts 5, written by Luke, Ananias and his wife are supposedly killed (dropped dead before Peter) for lying. Even Peter lied when asked if he was a follower of Christ.

I am trying to find where the Holy Spirit is used to kill a man or men.

Thoughts?

I don't believe that God killed Ananias and Saphira for a few reasons:

1) They didn't deserve to die anymore than any other Christian who has lied about money. And many have done that.

2) The WWJD theology test ... would Jesus have killed them if He were in the room?

3) Hebrews 2 says the devil has the power to kill. So, is it even possible for God to kill? Or put another way, does God kill in order to accomplish His purposes? I think not.
 
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Phantasman

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I don't believe that God killed Ananias and Saphira for a few reasons:

1) They didn't deserve to die anymore than any other Christian who has lied about money. And many have done that.

2) The WWJD theology test ... would Jesus have killed them if He were in the room?

3) Hebrews 2 says the devil has the power to kill. So, is it even possible for God to kill? Or put another way, does God kill in order to accomplish His purposes? I think not.

So now, does the Holy Spirit blind as well?

Acts 13:
9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him.
10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.


I am not a fan of Lukes writings. Was the Holy Spirit given at Pentecost or by Christ, at the end of John, when he was here?
 
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Krillin

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In Acts 5, written by Luke, Ananias and his wife are supposedly killed (dropped dead before Peter) for lying. Even Peter lied when asked if he was a follower of Christ.

I am trying to find where the Holy Spirit is used to kill a man or men.

Thoughts?

Peter repented. I suppose God foresaw that Ananias and his wife would not repent. It also goes to show us how God views self righteousness and greed.
 
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In Acts 5, written by Luke, Ananias and his wife are supposedly killed (dropped dead before Peter) for lying. Even Peter lied when asked if he was a follower of Christ.

I am trying to find where the Holy Spirit is used to kill a man or men.

Thoughts?

"Go up to a land flowing with milk and honey; for I will not go up in your midst, because you are an obstinate people, lest I destroy you on the way." (
Exo 33:3)

"The LORD will go forth like a warrior, He will arouse His zeal like a man of war. He will utter a shout, yes, He will raise a war cry. He will prevail against His enemies." (Isa 42:13)

"And in Thy lovingkindness cut off my enemies, And destroy all those who afflict my soul; For I am Thy servant." (Psa 143:12)

The Bible is full of language about God destroying His enemies. So yes, the Holy Spirit, as God's effectual force in the souls of humans, kills. Why do you see this as problematic?
 
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Phantasman

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"Go up to a land flowing with milk and honey; for I will not go up in your midst, because you are an obstinate people, lest I destroy you on the way." (
Exo 33:3)

"The LORD will go forth like a warrior, He will arouse His zeal like a man of war. He will utter a shout, yes, He will raise a war cry. He will prevail against His enemies." (Isa 42:13)

"And in Thy lovingkindness cut off my enemies, And destroy all those who afflict my soul; For I am Thy servant." (Psa 143:12)

The Bible is full of language about God destroying His enemies. So yes, the Holy Spirit, as God's effectual force in the souls of humans, kills. Why do you see this as problematic?

I suggest dropping the OT to obtain truth. A jealous God kills. A loving God doesn't.

Now, let's try the Gospel instead, and the one who gave us the Holy Spirit.
 
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I suggest dropping the OT to obtain truth. A jealous God kills. A loving God doesn't.

Now, let's try the Gospel instead, and the one who gave us the Holy Spirit.
I suggest using the whole Bible as God gave it rather than pick and choose which Testament sounds best to you. I accept as true that the whole Bible is inspired by God and to find the truth of answers to things spiritual we need to access and corroborate all of it.

I'm guessing you assume the NT is 'loving' and the OT is 'hating'. I beg to differ; both are loving. If you don't understand the lovingness of God's destruction, then you necessarily have an incomplete gospel.
 
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ananda

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I suggest dropping the OT to obtain truth. A jealous God kills. A loving God doesn't.

Now, let's try the Gospel instead, and the one who gave us the Holy Spirit.
I see YHWH as both a loving & just Elohim.

He lovingly offers the path of redemption to all men and women. If they choose to accept that redemption and love, then they are given eternal life. If they choose to reject YHWH's redemption and love, they must necessarily face His justice, which includes the prospect of eternal death.
 
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Phantasman

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I suggest using the whole Bible as God gave it rather than pick and choose which Testament sounds best to you. I accept as true that the whole Bible is inspired by God and to find the truth of answers to things spiritual we need to access and corroborate all of it.

I'm guessing you assume the NT is 'loving' and the OT is 'hating'. I beg to differ; both are loving. If you don't understand the lovingness of God's destruction, then you necessarily have an incomplete gospel.

I use the whole Bible. Plus those scriptures that the Catholics don't accept as Canon. I just see things differently than Orthodox Christians because I have more to draw from and many choose to remain limited.

But you are correct in my belief that the Father of Christ is not a murderer. He doesn't lie, cheat or steal either.
 
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GodsGirlToday61

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So now, does the Holy Spirit blind as well?

Acts 13:
9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him.
10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.


I am not a fan of Lukes writings. Was the Holy Spirit given at Pentecost or by Christ, at the end of John, when he was here?

The holy Spirit does not kill. The holy Spirit 'breathed' on Man. The holy Spirit descended like a dove on Jesus Christ after he was baptized.

As part of the Trinity, someone else mentioned above, the gist?: The Holy Spirit is our Comforter whom Jesus Christ left behind after He ascended into Heaven.

In the book by Gary Wills called What Paul Meant, the author asserts that we should trust Paul's account of his own conversion, which differs greatly from that of whoever wrote Acts--and he goes on to say why he mistrusts some allegedly factual aspects of Acts.

I won't get into that here, but I do not believe the two greedy ones died on the spot, either. That said, I have finite understanding, so if they did 'drop dead', it has been known that 'fear' can, and has, caused a person's heart to stop, so it is possible that once called out and having 'felt' how they had hidden possessions and lied about it, to God (not just their fellow brothers and sisters, 'as' fellow brothers and sisters in Christ) that they died.

It's also possible this story was meant to be read as allegory or some other lesson to scare those who would consider acting in such a profane way toward fellow Believers, and more importantly, to treat what came from God and is meant to be given to benefit Believers and the Good News being spread; it is possible that it was meant to be read as hyperbole, something many Hebrews used, including Jesus when he spoke of plucking ones eye out rather than allowing the entire body to be cast into Gehenna (translations differ somewhat).

Hyperbole can be, when understood as such, a wonderful teaching tool to sorta grab and focus attention: Here, the attention would be on how 'dead' to Eternal Life one would be who committed such a profane act as this couple (recorded in the book of Acts) committed.

~ Carolyn
 
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you are correct in my belief that the Father of Christ is not a murderer. He doesn't lie, cheat or steal either.
But these are separate topics. We're talking about killing.

Paul noted, "I die daily" in 1 Cor 15. Paul seemed to see this as a good thing. He understood that he was being murdered by theThe Holy Spirit a little bit at a time and was joyful for it.

If you read the OT with your emotions, you'll reject it. It's metaphor and allegory, which most today erroneously translate to mean it isn't real. All the wrath of God found in the OT is pure and true, every jot and tittle. This the Jesus you say you follow stated, why don't you believe Him? Once we know what God's wrath and destruction means, God's love and grace toward ALL men is fully seen.
 
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GodsGirlToday61

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DumpsterDiver45 shared: Paul noted, "I die daily" in 1 Cor 15. Paul seemed to see this as a good thing. He understood that he was being murdered by theThe Holy Spirit a little bit at a time and was joyful for it."

St. Paul was often conveying how dying to the 'fleshly', 'natural', 'imperfect' was the 'I', so yes to leave behind the 'casing' and the imperfect, natural man to be reborn perfected in God's presence, who woudn't want to die to that!

Yes, I know, many people don't want to; I'm expressing my similar enthusiasm for the Regeneration taking place, and that will be finished, when I leave this 'casing' with all its imperfections, behind.

~ Carolyn
 
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