Does the "fornication" exception for divorce not apply today?

Kilk1

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Hello! @Dave L and I have been discussing whether there is an exception for divorce today, and we decided to continue the discussion on a public thread. In Matthew 19:1-6, Jesus is asked whether a man can divorce his wife for just any reason, and He explains this isn't the case because in the Book of Genesis, marriage is taught to be where God joins the two together. In verse 7, the Pharisees reply that Moses commanded a divorce certificate, but Jesus responds in verse 8 that it was permitted due to the hardness of their hearts, not because it was good; instead, Jesus endorses the way it was at the beginning. He then says in Matthew 19:9 not to divorce one's wife and marry another except for sexual immorality/fornication, as doing so makes you guilty of adultery.

Does this suggest that Jesus' teaching differs from the OT (i.e., Moses), rather than being merely an explanation of it, thus meaning it applies today? Thanks!
 
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Dave L

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The first challenge is to find any divorce or remarriage option for believers in the New Covenant. The second challenge is to find an "exception" to divorce and remarriage in Matthew 19:9 (now defunct) while both parties remain living. Not that it matters since it was not made part of the New Covenant.
 
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Dansiph

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Hello! @Dave L and I have been discussing whether there is an exception for divorce today, and we decided to continue the discussion on a public thread. In Matthew 19:1-6, Jesus is asked whether a man can divorce his wife for just any reason, and He explains this isn't the case because in the Book of Genesis, marriage is taught to be where God joins the two together. In verse 7, the Pharisees reply that Moses commanded a divorce certificate, but Jesus responds in verse 8 that it was permitted due to the hardness of their hearts, not because it was good; instead, Jesus endorses the way it was at the beginning. He then says in Matthew 19:9 not to divorce one's wife and marry another except for sexual immorality/fornication, as doing so makes you guilty of adultery.

Does this suggest that Jesus' teaching differs from the OT (i.e., Moses), rather than being merely an explanation of it, thus meaning it applies today? Thanks!
I thought it meant the fornication takes place before the marriage? Something the husband later realises.
 
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Does this suggest that Jesus' teaching differs from the OT (i.e., Moses), rather than being merely an explanation of it, thus meaning it applies today? Thanks!

I think it applies today regardless. Are we really to believe that Jesus' teachings only applied during the 3½ years he was teaching on earth? That's silly.

If Jesus taught it, it's for today.
 
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Dave L

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I think it applies today regardless. Are we really to believe that Jesus' teachings only applied during the 3½ years he was teaching on earth? That's silly.

If Jesus taught it, it's for today.
He came to fulfill the Law. Most of the Sermon on the Mount can be found in the NT. This topic did not make it. Try to find it. It's not there.
 
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com7fy8

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short answer > first, take a look at yourself, in prayer, and make sure you do what our Father has you do.

In case anyone dares to get into how I analyze this >

l-o-n-g answer >

Well, "fornication" in the King James is used for a variety of sexually immoral actions, possibly what is while the person is not married. But maybe it can include adultery. Because it is used to mean a son having "his father's wife." (in 1 Corinthians 5:1)

So, how might it be Biblical for a man do divorce his wife because of "fornication"? Ones might say this means she is a prostitute while married and he finds out; maybe she has been for long before they marry and she tricked him into marrying her, having no intention of stopping her . . . profession. Well, that would be adultery, though, unless Jesus never consider them married, if that is possible . . . I am now considering.

Also, we have another possible deception item > the woman has fornicated, then tricked a man into thinking she is a virgin so he will marry her. You can read what is done about that, under the law of Moses > Deuteronomy 22:13-21. Again, I mean . . . I understand . . . this would be a problem if she on purpose betrayed him by deceiving him into thinking she is a virgin.

So, if we are new creatures in Jesus, but have fornicated in our past and have not tried to fool our spouses about this, I am satisfied that this would not be what Jesus means by "fornication" being grounds for divorce. But what if a person gets married but it is found out . . . proven . . . that the person had no intention of being faithful and no intention of sharing in love in marriage? Does that mean God knows they are not married, but that trickster, in truth, is committing fornication? This possibility just came to my mind . . . by the way.

What if this happened to me while I am a Christian? I actually have committed myself to my wife, really meant it between me and God, and we have been pronounced; but then comes the big surprise. I suppose Jesus might excuse me to divorce her.

But my number-one issue would be, how ever did I get here, when I should have been obeying how God is personally guiding me? Being with a willful faker could be very in-my-face proof of how I have not been hearing Jesus' voice; and I doubt if I am obeying how our Father guides us in His peace > Colossians 3:15 > He would not have guided me to her.

So, this could mean I am my own problem, so much more than she is. So, I might tell her it was more my fault than hers, and ask her if she would care to stay with me and we both could find out how to love and how to live in God's personal guiding. Among other things . . . because if I could so fool myself, I could just do the same thing, all over again with someone else, when with her I could seek God for real correction, learning how to love her with compassion while learning how to be reliably guided by God.

So, yeah I might be ok to get a divorce; but since I have her and such proof of my own character being more or less bogus, I could keep her to help me find out how to genuinely love.

In another way of saying it > how I really am in my character has had a lot to do with whom I can be attracted to and connect with, for marriage. So, in case I got married and then got proof in my face that I have a very self-deceptive ability, my first need would be to get real correction, and not take this problem out on someone who took advantage of me making myself so available.

Jesus expects me to love her, in any case, right? So, before I get to even thinking about divorce, I first need to trust God to have me truly loving her the way He desires. And discover how He personally guides me in His own peace, so this becomes what I am doing >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

And this will mean I am not first so ready to self-righteously condemn her. I myself must be submissive to how God personally guides me, all the time. And considering my track record in this, may be I do not need to be criticizing anyone else, too quickly. Being "faithful" (Ephesians 1:1) includes not having any relationships with things which are not with our Groom Jesus.

I must not have extramarital affairs with unforgiveness, "complaining and disputing" (Philippians 2:13-16), "lust of the eyes" (1 John 2:16), self-righteously criticizing others . . . or else I am cheating on Jesus our Groom.

And has Jesus divorced me for committing adultery against Him? Not to my knowledge > but He expects me to also be so forgiving, but indeed to get real correction so I am loving instead of having relationships with evil things.

So . . . possibly, whoever I have been able to marry while claiming to be a Christian, this could be my proof of how I have been, and now I need to get real correction with God and discover how He has me loving her and any and all people the way God wants.

"Husbands, love your wives and do not be bitter toward them." (Colossians 3:19)

So, in any case, I am never excused to have bitterness; and so definitely I am not allowed to have any bitterness effecting my decision making about my wife, or else I am committing adultery against our Groom Jesus, by having an affair with bitterness.

And so we are to relate faithfully with all our Christian family >

"Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:31-32)

So, we need to relate in God's love with various other Christians, not isolate ourselves with some one person for getting what we want. And if we are learning how to love as family, then, this can help us to get into the right way of marriage with our own spouses. So, in case I have fallen for only my own wife, in isolation trying to mainly just control and use her for what I want, she is not my problem. I need first to get with our Father and discover how He has me discover how to love, and . . . maybe practice on her . . . perhaps so I can find out how to love an impossible person, so then I can love any and all people the way . . . our Groom wants us to love.
 
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Kilk1

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The first challenge is to find any divorce or remarriage option for believers in the New Covenant. The second challenge is to find an "exception" to divorce and remarriage in Matthew 19:9 (now defunct) while both parties remain living. Not that it matters since it was not made part of the New Covenant.
In my view, the second challenge doesn't seem to be much of a challenge. You can't divorce someone who died, can you? Doesn't death dissolve the marriage according to Romans 7:2-3?

The first challenge I answer this way (please correct me if you see a problem with it): What Jesus taught in Matthew 19:9 applies to either 1) the Old Testament Law of Moses or 2) the New Testament which replaced the OT (Hebrews 8:13). Since the Pharisees cite the law of Moses in Matthew 19:7 and since Jesus contrasts the law of Moses with His teaching in Matthew 19:8, (i.e., He said Moses just permitted divorce because of the hardness of their hearts and that this permission didn't exist in the beginning), His teaching can't be 1) the Old Testament Law of Moses. Therefore, His teaching in Matthew 19:9 applies to 2) the New Testament which replaced the OT (Hebrews 8:13).

Does this make sense?
 
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Kilk1

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short answer > first, take a look at yourself, in prayer, and make sure you do what our Father has you do.

In case anyone dares to get into how I analyze this >

l-o-n-g answer >

Well, "fornication" in the King James is used for a variety of sexually immoral actions, possibly what is while the person is not married. But maybe it can include adultery. Because it is used to mean a son having "his father's wife." (in 1 Corinthians 5:1)

So, how might it be Biblical for a man do divorce his wife because of "fornication"? Ones might say this means she is a prostitute while married and he finds out; maybe she has been for long before they marry and she tricked him into marrying her, having no intention of stopping her . . . profession. Well, that would be adultery, though, unless Jesus never consider them married, if that is possible . . . I am now considering.

Also, we have another possible deception item > the woman has fornicated, then tricked a man into thinking she is a virgin so he will marry her. You can read what is done about that, under the law of Moses > Deuteronomy 22:13-21. Again, I mean . . . I understand . . . this would be a problem if she on purpose betrayed him by deceiving him into thinking she is a virgin.

So, if we are new creatures in Jesus, but have fornicated in our past and have not tried to fool our spouses about this, I am satisfied that this would not be what Jesus means by "fornication" being grounds for divorce. But what if a person gets married but it is found out . . . proven . . . that the person had no intention of being faithful and no intention of sharing in love in marriage? Does that mean God knows they are not married, but that trickster, in truth, is committing fornication? This possibility just came to my mind . . . by the way.

What if this happened to me while I am a Christian? I actually have committed myself to my wife, really meant it between me and God, and we have been pronounced; but then comes the big surprise. I suppose Jesus might excuse me to divorce her.

But my number-one issue would be, how ever did I get here, when I should have been obeying how God is personally guiding me? Being with a willful faker could be very in-my-face proof of how I have not been hearing Jesus' voice; and I doubt if I am obeying how our Father guides us in His peace > Colossians 3:15 > He would not have guided me to her.

So, this could mean I am my own problem, so much more than she is. So, I might tell her it was more my fault than hers, and ask her if she would care to stay with me and we both could find out how to love and how to live in God's personal guiding. Among other things . . . because if I could so fool myself, I could just do the same thing, all over again with someone else, when with her I could seek God for real correction, learning how to love her with compassion while learning how to be reliably guided by God.

So, yeah I might be ok to get a divorce; but since I have her and such proof of my own character being more or less bogus, I could keep her to help me find out how to genuinely love.

In another way of saying it > how I really am in my character has had a lot to do with whom I can be attracted to and connect with, for marriage. So, in case I got married and then got proof in my face that I have a very self-deceptive ability, my first need would be to get real correction, and not take this problem out on someone who took advantage of me making myself so available.

Jesus expects me to love her, in any case, right? So, before I get to even thinking about divorce, I first need to trust God to have me truly loving her the way He desires. And discover how He personally guides me in His own peace, so this becomes what I am doing >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

And this will mean I am not first so ready to self-righteously condemn her. I myself must be submissive to how God personally guides me, all the time. And considering my track record in this, may be I do not need to be criticizing anyone else, too quickly. Being "faithful" (Ephesians 1:1) includes not having any relationships with things which are not with our Groom Jesus.

I must not have extramarital affairs with unforgiveness, "complaining and disputing" (Philippians 2:13-16), "lust of the eyes" (1 John 2:16), self-righteously criticizing others . . . or else I am cheating on Jesus our Groom.

And has Jesus divorced me for committing adultery against Him? Not to my knowledge > but He expects me to also be so forgiving, but indeed to get real correction so I am loving instead of having relationships with evil things.

So . . . possibly, whoever I have been able to marry while claiming to be a Christian, this could be my proof of how I have been, and now I need to get real correction with God and discover how He has me loving her and any and all people the way God wants.

"Husbands, love your wives and do not be bitter toward them." (Colossians 3:19)

So, in any case, I am never excused to have bitterness; and so definitely I am not allowed to have any bitterness effecting my decision making about my wife, or else I am committing adultery against our Groom Jesus, by having an affair with bitterness.

And so we are to relate faithfully with all our Christian family >

"Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:31-32)

So, we need to relate in God's love with various other Christians, not isolate ourselves with some one person for getting what we want. And if we are learning how to love as family, then, this can help us to get into the right way of marriage with our own spouses. So, in case I have fallen for only my own wife, in isolation trying to mainly just control and use her for what I want, she is not my problem. I need first to get with our Father and discover how He has me discover how to love, and . . . maybe practice on her . . . perhaps so I can find out how to love an impossible person, so then I can love any and all people the way . . . our Groom wants us to love.
There are a lot of thoughts here to consider. Good point on how the love a Christian should have for his spouse should be self-less, not selfish (i.e., it should involve the agape love)! As far as Matthew 19:9 is concerned, since "fornication" refers to "sexual immorality," I'd say it refers to if your spouse is guilty of committing illicit sex (such as by cheating on you).
 
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Dave L

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In my view, the second challenge doesn't seem to be much of a challenge. You can't divorce someone who died, can you? Doesn't death dissolve the marriage according to Romans 7:2-3?

The first challenge I answer this way (please correct me if you see a problem with it): What Jesus taught in Matthew 19:9 applies to either 1) the Old Testament Law of Moses or 2) the New Testament which replaced the OT (Hebrews 8:13). Since the Pharisees cite the law of Moses in Matthew 19:7 and since Jesus contrasts the law of Moses with His teaching in Matthew 19:8, (i.e., He said Moses just permitted divorce because of the hardness of their hearts and that this permission didn't exist in the beginning), His teaching can't be 1) the Old Testament Law of Moses. Therefore, His teaching in Matthew 19:9 applies to 2) the New Testament which replaced the OT (Hebrews 8:13).

Does this make sense?
Here is the OT version of Matthew 19:9. It shows marriage is permanent. More laws follow showing the death sentence for adultery if you look up the passage and continue reading.

“If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her, And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel’s virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel’s father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her; And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter’s virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him; And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days. But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father’s house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.” Deuteronomy 22:13–21 (KJV 1900)
 
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Gregorikos

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He came to fulfill the Law. Most of the Sermon on the Mount can be found in the NT. This topic did not make it. Try to find it. It's not there.

It doesn't matter if neither Paul nor John nor Peter, James or Jude didn't mention it. Jesus mentioned it.

Whom do you worship? The Apostles? Or Jesus Christ?

Do you really believe that Jesus had teaching recorded in the Gospels that was irrelevant before the Gospels were written?
 
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Dave L

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It doesn't matter if neither Paul nor John nor Peter, James or Jude didn't mention it. Jesus mentioned it.

Whom do you worship? The Apostles? Or Jesus Christ?

Do you really believe that Jesus had teaching recorded in the Gospels that was irrelevant before the Gospels were written?
Problem? The Old Covenant replaced the New Covenant. How serious? You reject the New Covenant and follow the Old.
 
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JohnDB

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In my view, the second challenge doesn't seem to be much of a challenge. You can't divorce someone who died, can you? Doesn't death dissolve the marriage according to Romans 7:2-3?

The first challenge I answer this way (please correct me if you see a problem with it): What Jesus taught in Matthew 19:9 applies to either 1) the Old Testament Law of Moses or 2) the New Testament which replaced the OT (Hebrews 8:13). Since the Pharisees cite the law of Moses in Matthew 19:7 and since Jesus contrasts the law of Moses with His teaching in Matthew 19:8, (i.e., He said Moses just permitted divorce because of the hardness of their hearts and that this permission didn't exist in the beginning), His teaching can't be 1) the Old Testament Law of Moses. Therefore, His teaching in Matthew 19:9 applies to 2) the New Testament which replaced the OT (Hebrews 8:13).

Does this make sense?

Now where you have very clearly stated your position you have forgotten one of the best things about God...

He NEVER changes.
He doesn't say something is ok to do one day and say it's a deadly sin the next.

The Old Testament/Covenant Law was fulfilled by Christ Jesus...it wasn't done away with or replaced or supplanted. Jesus is alive today as a living testimony of the Law.

And adultery isn't the unpardonable crime in marriage either. Nor does God expect it to be... usually if she wasn't forgiven she was stoned to death. All else was "put away".
The whole book of Hosea is about how the Nation of Israel was an adulteress nation.
 
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Gregorikos

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Problem? The Old Covenant replaced the New Covenant. How serious? You reject the New Covenant and follow the Old.

Not so. The Old Covenant involved being circumcised and following the laws of Moses, including Sabbath, Passover, sacrifice, tithing, and all the feasts. That isn't the covenant I follow.

You, however, reject the clear teaching of Jesus unless it was confirmed and verified by an apostle. Thus, you place apostolic teaching above that of our Lord. That is quite serious.
 
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Dave L

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Not so. The Old Covenant involved being circumcised and following the laws of Moses, including Sabbath, Passover, sacrifice, tithing, and all the feasts. That isn't the covenant I follow.

You, however, reject the clear teaching of Jesus unless it was confirmed and verified by an apostle. Thus, you place apostolic teaching above that of our Lord. That is quite serious.
Matthew 19:9 is the Old Covenant commented on by Jesus. You are not supposed to add to the New Covenant (God's word). Only the Apostles and writers did this.
 
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Dave L

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Now where you have very clearly stated your position you have forgotten one of the best things about God...

He NEVER changes.
He doesn't say something is ok to do one day and say it's a deadly sin the next.

The Old Testament/Covenant Law was fulfilled by Christ Jesus...it wasn't done away with or replaced or supplanted. Jesus is alive today as a living testimony of the Law.

And adultery isn't the unpardonable crime in marriage either. Nor does God expect it to be... usually if she wasn't forgiven she was stoned to death. All else was "put away".
The whole book of Hosea is about how the Nation of Israel was an adulteress nation.
“‘Behold, the days come,’ saith the LORD, ‘that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband unto them,’ saith the LORD: ‘but this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; after those days,’ saith the LORD, ‘I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, “Know the LORD”: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them,’ saith the LORD: ‘for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.’” Jeremiah 31:31–34 (NCPB)
 
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Kilk1

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Here is the OT version of Matthew 19:9. It shows marriage is permanent. More laws follow showing the death sentence for adultery if you look up the passage and continue reading.

“If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her, And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel’s virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel’s father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her; And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter’s virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him; And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days. But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father’s house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.” Deuteronomy 22:13–21 (KJV 1900)
Deuteronomy 22:13-21 taught that if you got married and found out your wife wasn't a virgin when you married her, that she'd be executed by stoning--not divorced. (Again, death ends a marriage without one having to divorce his spouse.) The same would apply if she committed sexual immorality after marriage as well, Deuteronomy 22:22, or while betrothed, Deuteronomy 22:23-24. Therefore, Matthew 19:9 isn't explaining what Deuteronomy 22 already taught.

No passage in the OT law of Moses teaches divorce as the punishment for sexual immorality; instead, the punishment was execution. In Matthew 19:7-8, Jesus even contrasts His position with Moses' teaching in Deuteronomy 24:1, which permitted the divorce certificate. Therefore, Jesus' position in the next verse, Matthew 19:9, must be outside the OT law of Moses. Wouldn't this follow, or am I missing something? Thanks!
 
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But my number-one issue would be, how ever did I get here, when I should have been obeying how God is personally guiding me? Being with a willful faker could be very in-my-face proof of how I have not been hearing Jesus' voice; and I doubt if I am obeying how our Father guides us in His peace > Colossians 3:15 > He would not have guided me to her.

So, this could mean I am my own problem, so much more than she is. So, I might tell her it was more my fault than hers, and ask her if she would care to stay with me and we both could find out how to love and how to live in God's personal guiding. Among other things . . . because if I could so fool myself, I could just do the same thing, all over again with someone else, when with her I could seek God for real correction, learning how to love her with compassion while learning how to be reliably guided by God.

By that logic, Satan is absolved of blame.
 
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Dave L

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Deuteronomy 22:13-21 taught that if you got married and found out your wife wasn't a virgin when you married her, that she'd be executed by stoning--not divorced. (Again, death ends a marriage without one having to divorce his spouse.) The same would apply if she committed sexual immorality after marriage as well, Deuteronomy 22:22, or while betrothed, Deuteronomy 22:23-24. Therefore, Matthew 19:9 isn't explaining what Deuteronomy 22 already taught.

No passage in the OT law of Moses teaches divorce as the punishment for sexual immorality; instead, the punishment was execution. In Matthew 19:7-8, Jesus even contrasts His position with Moses' teaching in Deuteronomy 24:1, which permitted the divorce certificate. Therefore, Jesus' position in the next verse, Matthew 19:9, must be outside the OT law of Moses. Wouldn't this follow, or am I missing something? Thanks!
The stoned adulterers. If not, remarriage constituted adultery too.
 
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