Does the following verse prove or disprove ECT?

[Petros2015]

Luke 16 appears to argue pretty strongly for ECT.

The Rich Man appears to be pretty conscious, as far as I can tell. Perhaps he was not conscious and aware of his situation during his life? But the flames appear to be keeping him very awake now.

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

 

[Andrewn]

Yes, that would be an argument from silence because He didn't say anything one way or another about the unsaved in that verse. We can't conclude for certain the unsaved die or never die just from John 11:26 alone since Jesus only said there that believers never die. We can conclude that He was only talking about believers there because we know unbelievers will experience the second death (Rev 20:14-15).

Of course, I agree with you. Joh 11:26 is really very straight forward and easy to interpret and I don't have the vaguest idea how @DavidPT can misunderstand it. Unfortunately, the real question has been missed. It was never asked. How do you interpret Joh 11:25?

 

[DavidPT]

Of course, I agree with you. Joh 11:26 is really very straight forward and easy to interpret and I don't have the vaguest idea how @DavidPT can misunderstand it. Unfortunately, the real question has been missed. It was never asked. How do you interpret Joh 11:25?

Let me try and sum up again what I am arguing. ECT means one can never die. In John 11:26 Jesus never said the unsaved never die either. That verse is conditional not universal. There will come a time when Jesus raises everyone from the dead, both the saved and unsaved. He will raise them bodily. This means that whoever is cast into the LOF, that before they are cast in there, they are already fully alive bodily. In order for them to experience ECT Jesus has to first provide them with a body that is immortal, obviously. Where is there a single Scripture that tells us that the unsaved also receive an incorruptible immortal body when Jesus raises them? Is one going to argue that after they are cast into the LOF their body is fully destroyed but that their soul isn't?

Either Jesus was correct in John 11:26 when He indicated that to never die is conditional, or He was wrong altogether, if ECT is true, since ECT requires both an immortal body and an immortal soul in order for it to even be plausible.

Some already argue that man was created with an immortal soul, except they can never seem to produce the Scriptures where it ever says this, yet they insist it is true, nonetheless. That's one thing. Another thing is, those cast into the LOF after they are raised from the dead are cast into it bodily. To then insist they experience ECT without anyone providing one single Scripture where anyone in the OT or NT ever said the unsaved also receive immortal bodies during the resurrection, is further proof that the unsaved die in the LOF, not never die instead. If there was Scripture that indicates that the lost also receive incorruptible immortal bodies when they are raised from the dead, someone would have produced such Scripture by now.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Hell here is obviously meaning the LOF. In this verse it couldn't possibly be meaning something that immediately happens to the unsaved upon death, the fact it not only involves the soul being in hell, it also involves the body. No one descends into hell bodily when they die, that is ludicrous. They have to first be raised from the dead in order to be cast bodily into hell. This verse says God is able to destroy both soul and body in hell, except some of you apparently don't believe He is able to, the fact some of you have man experiencing ECT in hell rather than being destroyed in hell, thus some of you have the unsaved also never dying even though Jesus only meant the saved, and what He meant, it was conditional not universal.

 

[DavidPT]

In order for ECT involving humans to be true, all of the following would not mean what it already clearly says, which is the following.

Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

It shouldn't even be debatable what the above says and means. But throw ECT into the mix, now it's debatable what the above actually says and means.

If ECT is supposed to be true, all of the above would need to be understood like such.

Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, both the saved and unsaved
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead, both the saved and unsaved, shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us, both the saved and unsaved, the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more and neither can any of the unsaved: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die, even the unsaved that don't believe in me. Believest thou this?

It renders these passages as total nonsense if we also apply ECT to them. No matter how you look at it, when Jesus indicated that one shall never die, and one can't die anymore, He is meaning after He bodily raises them from the dead after He returns. It is not just the saved He bodily raises from the dead, He also bodily raises the unsaved from the dead. Once everyone has been raised, they are all bodily alive. Do they all remain bodily alive for forever, or do only some of them remain bodily alive for forever? What do the 3 passages I provided at the top indicate? Shouldn't we go by what those passages say and mean? Or should we instead try and change their meaning by insisting ECT is true in regards to humans?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Of course, I agree with you. Joh 11:26 is really very straight forward and easy to interpret and I don't have the vaguest idea how @DavidPT can misunderstand it. Unfortunately, the real question has been missed. It was never asked. How do you interpret Joh 11:25?

It has to be interpreted in context of the verses that precede and follow it.

John 11:21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. 22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee. 23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

So, the conversation here centers around Martha's brother Lazarus who had died shortly before that. Despite mourning his death, Martha knew that Lazarus would be resurrected "at the last day". So, when Jesus responds to her in John 11:25 He did not correct her since what she said is true (see John 6:39). So, what He said supported what she had just said.

In John 11:25 He was saying that those who believe in Him, even if they are dead like Lazarus, they will be resurrected and be with Him one day (the last day). He expanded on that in verse 26 by saying that whoever believes in Him will never die. He wasn't saying they would never die physically but that they would never die in the sense of experiencing the second death as unbelievers will after they are resurrected.

 

[Petros2015]

No matter how you look at it, when Jesus indicated that one shall never die, and one can't die anymore

That's... not necessarily a good thing, depending on where you happen to be located. Or re-located as the case may be. I seem to recall something about "the outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth"

I would point out, that there is an AWFUL LOT of outer darkness in the current Creation. Chasms of Light-Years....

26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

...And quite a number of burning, fiery, bottomless pits.

We call them "stars"

 

[Spiritual Jew]

In order for ECT involving humans to be true, all of the following would not mean what it already clearly says, which is the following.

Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

It shouldn't even be debatable what the above says and means. But throw ECT into the mix, now it's debatable what the above actually says and means.

If ECT is supposed to be true, all of the above would need to be understood like such.

Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, both the saved and unsaved
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead, both the saved and unsaved, shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us, both the saved and unsaved, the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more and neither can any of the unsaved: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die, even the unsaved that don't believe in me. Believest thou this?

It renders these passages as total nonsense if we also apply ECT to them. No matter how you look at it, when Jesus indicated that one shall never die, and one can't die anymore, He is meaning after He bodily raises them from the dead after He returns. It is not just the saved He bodily raises from the dead, He also bodily raises the unsaved from the dead. Once everyone has been raised, they are all bodily alive. Do they all remain bodily alive for forever, or do only some of them remain bodily alive for forever? What do the 3 passages I provided at the top indicate? Shouldn't we go by what those passages say and mean? Or should we instead try and change their meaning by insisting ECT is true in regards to humans?

Yes, we should go by what those passages say and mean, but the fact is that we are not obligated to go by what you THINK those passages say and mean.

Once again, I have to point out that the question is NOT whether or not the unsaved will die. They will all experience the second death while believers will not. That is clear. So, the real question to be answered here is what does the second death entail? Where do the passages you referenced indicate that the second death results in annihilation? I don't see that anywhere implied in those passages.

Other passages that speak of what happens at the second death do not give a picture of annihilation, but rather a picture of everlasting conscious torment.

Such as this one:

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

This speaks of being eternally separated from the presence of the Lord. One does not have to be annihilated for that to be the case. They just have to be located somewhere apart from the presence of the Lord.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

How can the punishment unbelievers are given be "everlasting" if they just cease to exist?

Matthew 11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. 23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

How can the punishment for some unbelievers be more tolerable than the punishment for others if they all will just cease to exist?

 

[DavidPT]

That's... not necessarily a good thing, depending on where you happen to be located. Or re-located as the case may be. I seem to recall something about "the outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth"

I would point out, that there is an AWFUL LOT of outer darkness in the current Creation. Chasms of Light-Years....

26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

...And quite a number of burning, fiery, bottomless pits.

We call them "stars"

As to black holes, what does one propose becomes of them when the following is fulfilled?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


I'm not convinced any of that is meaning in the literal sense, yet there are many that do take those things in the literal sense. Let's assume they are correct, thus this should be taken in the literal sense. Would not black holes be replaced by the new heavens? How could they be new heavens if there are still black holes here and there?

 

[Petros2015]

As to black holes, what does one propose becomes of them when the following is fulfilled?

I haven't the faintest idea - but I find their presence in the current Creation somewhat disconcerting. Somewhat like the Sword of Damocles.

Super-gravity causes time-dilation. In the vid - at 3:26: "to a person observing you from outside the Event Horizon you would seem to slow down and just freeze... at the Event Horizon, time comes to a standstill..." That's... starting to meet the criteria for an Eternal Prison for Things That Don't (or Can't) Die. Nothing is coming back from it and they are for all intents and purposes locked in that state.

Food for thought. At least for me.

 

[DavidPT]

I haven't the faintest idea - but I find their presence in the current Creation somewhat disconcerting. Somewhat like the Sword of Damocles.

Super-gravity causes time-dilation. In the vid - at 3:26: "to a person observing you from outside the Event Horizon you would seem to slow down and just freeze... at the Event Horizon, time comes to a standstill..." That's... starting to meet the criteria for an Eternal Prison for Things That Don't (or Can't) Die. Nothing is coming back from it and they are for all intents and purposes locked in that state.

Food for thought. At least for me.

Let's assume that when the unsaved die they end up sucked up into a black hole, thus confined in it. If I recall, since it was earlier when I initially watched that video, according to that video, once one is sucked up into a black hole there is no escaping from it ever. That is already contradicted by the final resurrection, though. Obviously, if one is raised from the dead and standing before God bodily alive, they are not also in a place where there is no escaping from ever, since they can't be in more than one place at a time.