Does the following verse prove or disprove ECT?

Andrewn

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When ppl die, regardless whether they are saved or unsaved when they die, their spirit/soul goes somewhere while they are awaiting a bodily resurrection. The spirits of the lost are just as much alive as the spirits of the saved are, unless one wants to argue soul sleep or even soul death, in regards to the unsaved when they die, meaning the state after death but prior to the final resurrection. That would mean the lost never die either, when applying it like you are applying it to the saved when they die. But Jesus never said the unsaved shall never die.
I don't believe in soul unconsciousness and neither do you, so let's get this issue out of the discussion. However, only the saved are alive because the Lord said:

Joh 17:3 And this is eternal life (ἡ αἰώνιος ζωή) that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

Eternal life is to be with God and Christ. The souls of the unsaved are conscious but not alive. They are in Gehenna, right? the Bible teaches that not everyone who is conscious is alive:

Eph 2:1 You were dead in your transgressions and sins

What I'm saying is really standard Christianity. I'm not sure why you object. Interpreting Joh 11:25-26, the Cambridge Commentary says:

"25. I am the resurrection, and the life] He draws her from her selfish grief to Himself. There is no need for Him to pray as man to God (John 11:22); He (and none else) is the Resurrection and the Life. There is no need to look forward to the last day; He is (not ‘will be’) the Resurrection and the Life. Comp. John 14:6; Colossians 3:4. In what follows, the first part shews how He is the Resurrection, the second how He is the Life. ‘He that believeth in Me, even if he shall have died (physically), shall live (eternally). And every one that liveth (physically) and believeth in Me, shall never die (eternally).’"

All other commentaries agree with this. What are you objecting about?
 
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com7fy8

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I think God's word agrees.

Eternal life is in Jesus >

"This is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son." (1 John 5:11)

next verse >

"He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life." (1 John 5:12)

If we have Jesus, we already have His life. But people without Jesus do not have His life living in them. And already they are conscious and in conscious torment.

They are not immortal in the life of Jesus. But they exist in what can last in them after they die. Because Satan's evil spirit of their torment will continue after their bodies die. Their body dying does not mean they have gone out of spiritual existence.

So, when Jesus says someone was dead but then will live, if the person believes in Jesus, He is talking about a believer who lives after the person's body has died.

But an unbeliever has not believed in Christ, and now already the person suffers torment. And this is spiritual, what can continue after the body has died.

Satan is spiritual and in torment of his pride. So, we are wise to get rid of whatever has to do with pride.
 
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Der Alte

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John was a simple Jewish fisherman, not a Greek philosopher, therefore his understanding of God and the Logos i.e. Word, would be Jewish, not Greek.
Here from the Jewish Encyclopedia, part of the article on “Memra.” מאמר/memra which in Aramaic means “word.” The Targums were Aramaic translations of the O.T., began during the Babylonian captivity about 700 BC.
In the below list, which is only representative not comprehensive, there are at least eighty examples where the name יהוה/YHWH was replaced, in the Targums, with” מאמר/memra.” When John, the Jew, said to his Jewish audience, “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God.,” he was not saying anything strange or new.
[1] O.T.: “Deut 4:7 The Word brings Israel nigh unto God and [The Word] sits on [God’s] throne receiving the prayers of Israel.” cf. Re 3:21 Re 22:3, N.T. ca. 70 AD.
N.T.: Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I [The Word] grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
[2] O.T.: “Isa 48:13 His Word has laid the foundation of the earth.” cf. John 1:3, N.T. ca. 70 AD.
N.T.: Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; [The Word] and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[3] O.T.: “Isa 64;13 So, in the future, shall The Word be the comforter.” cf. John 14;18, N.T. ca. 70 AD.
N.T.: Joh 14:18 I [The Word] will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you..
[4] O.T.: “Zech 12:5 In The Word redemption will be found.” cf. 1 Cor 1:30, N.T. ca. 70 AD.
N.T.: 1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, [The Word] who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
[5] O.T.: “Lev 22:12 My Word shall be unto you for a redeeming deity.” cf. 1 Cor 1;30, Heb 9:12, Heb 9:15, N.T. ca. 70 AD.
N.T.: 1Co 1:30 But of him [The Word] are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
Here from the Jewish Encyclopedia, part of the article on “Memra/Word.”

Jewish Encyclopedia Memra-In the Targum:
In the Targum the Memra figures constantly as the manifestation of the divine power, or as God's messenger in place of God Himself, wherever the predicate is not in conformity with the dignity or the spirituality of the Deity.
Instead of the Scriptural "You have not believed in the Lord," Targ. Deut. i. 32 has "You have not believed in the word of the Lord"; instead of "I shall require it [vengeance] from him," Targ. Deut. xviii. 19 has "My word shall require it." "The Memra," [The Word] "instead of "the Lord, " is "the consuming fire" (Targ. Deut. ix. 3; comp. Targ. Isa. xxx. 27). The Memra "plagued the people" (Targ. Yer. to Ex. xxxii. 35). "The Memra smote him" (II Sam. vi. 7; comp. Targ. I Kings xviii. 24; Hos. xiii. 14; et al.). "Not "God," but "the Memra [The Word]," is met with in Targ. Ex. xix. 17 (Targ. Yer. "the Shekinah"; comp. Targ. Ex. xxv. 22: "I will order My Memra to be there"). " "I will cover thee with My Memra, [My Word] "" instead of "My hand" (Targ. Ex. xxxiii. 22). "Instead of "My soul," "My Memra [My Word] "shall reject you" (Targ. Lev. xxvi. 30; comp. Isa. i. 14, xlii. 1; Jer. vi. 8; Ezek. xxiii. 18). ""The voice of the Memra, [The Word] " instead of "God," is heard (Gen. iii. 8; Deut. iv. 33, 36; v. 21; Isa. vi. 8; et al.). Where Moses says, "I stood between the Lord and you" (Deut. v. 5), the Targum has, "between the Memra of the Lord and you"; and the "sign between Me and you" becomes ""a sign between My Memra [My Word] "and you" (Ex. xxxi. 13, 17; comp. Lev. xxvi. 46; Gen. ix. 12; xvii. 2, 7, 10; Ezek. xx. 12). Instead of God, the Memra comes to Abimelek (Gen. xx. 3), and to Balaam (Num. xxiii. 4). His Memra aids and accompanies Israel, performing wonders for them (Targ. Num. xxiii. 21; Deut. i. 30, xxxiii. 3; Targ. Isa. lxiii. 14; Jer. xxxi. 1; Hos. ix. 10 [comp. xi. 3, "the messenger-angel"]). The Memra goes before Cyrus (Isa. xlv. 12). The Lord swears by His Memra (Gen. xxi. 23, xxii. 16, xxiv. 3; Ex. xxxii. 13; Num. xiv. 30; Isa. xlv. 23; Ezek. xx. 5; et al.). It is His Memra that repents (Targ. Gen. vi. 6, viii. 21; I Sam. xv. 11, 35). "Not His "hand," but His "Memra [His Word] "has laid the foundation of the earth" (Targ. Isa. xlviii. 13); for His Memra's or Name's sake does He act (l.c. xlviii. 11; II Kings xix. 34). Through the Memra God turns to His people (Targ. Lev. xxvi. 90; II Kings xiii. 23), becomes the shield of Abraham (Gen. xv. 1), and is with Moses (Ex. iii. 12; iv. 12, 15) and with Israel (Targ. Yer. to Num. x. 35, 36; Isa. lxiii. 14). "It is the Memra, [The Word] not God Himself, "against whom man offends (Ex. xvi. 8; Num. xiv. 5; I Kings viii. 50; II Kings xix. 28; Isa. i. 2, 16; xlv. 3, 20; Hos. v. 7, vi. 7; Targ. Yer. to Lev. v. 21, vi. 2; Deut. v. 11); through His Memra Israel shall be justified (Targ. Isa. xlv. 25); with the Memra Israel stands in communion (Targ. Josh. xxii. 24, 27); in the Memra man puts his trust (Targ. Gen. xv. 6; Targ. Yer. to Ex. xiv. 31; Jer. xxxix. 18, xlix. 11).
Like the Shekinah (comp. Targ. Num. xxiii. 21), the Memra is accordingly the manifestation of God. ""The Memra [The Word] brings Israel nigh unto God and sits on His throne receiving the prayers of Israel" " (Targ. Yer. to Deut. iv. 7). . . "So, in the future, shall the Memra [The Word] "be the comforter (Targ. Isa. lxvi. 13): "My Shekinah I shall put among you, "My Memra [My Word] "shall be unto you for a redeeming deity, and you shall be unto My Name a holy people" (Targ. Yer. to Lev. xxii. 12).
The Memra is "the witness" (Targ. Yer. xxix. 23); it will be to Israel like a father (l.c. xxxi. 9) and "will rejoice over them to do them good" (l.c. xxxii. 41). ""In the Memra [The Word] "the redemption will be found " (Targ. Zech. xii. 5).
Jewish Encylopædia online
 
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If the 2nd death means ECT in the LOF, that's not even logical since that would mean that Jesus meant everyone in John 11:26, that after He bodily raises them, regardless whether they are saved or unsaved, they shall never die. Only someone that can never die can ECT be applied to, that would be the logic.
I disagree. The term death does not have to refer to a ceasing of existence. You and I were once dead in our sins, but we were made spiritually alive when we became saved (see Eph 2:1-6). Obviously, we were physically alive despite being dead in our sins. Being dead in sins has to do with not being in right standing with God (being separated from a personal relationship with God). Why can't the second death mean something similar? Look at this:

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

This seems to indicate that the punishment that unbelievers will experience is being kept away from "the presence of the Lord". Again, the term death does not have to refer to ceasing to exist, but can refer to separation. When we die (physically), our whole being or existence doesn't die. It's a separation of our soul and spirit from the body. So, the second death does not have to refer to unbelievers ceasing to exist. It can instead refer to unbelievers being eternally separated from the presence of God.

Since you mentioned Revelation 20:10, satan is not nor ever was human, but not implying you don't already know that. satan was apparently created prior to man. How long prior to, who knows? That's irrelevant in this case. what is relevant, unlike man, satan has never died up unto this point. Maybe the reason why, satan was created immortal? Man OTOH wasn't. Man can die and does die.
The soul and spirit of man doesn't die, though. It's just our bodies that die.

In Revelation 20, verse 10 involves this--- and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

In Revelation 20, verse 11-15 involves this--- the second death.

The first thing we need to realize, by the time the GWTJ commences, satan has already been cast into the LOF, thus is not even among any of these at the GWTJ. This should tell us that two different judgments are involved. That doesn't mean they can't happen on the same day, it just means one judgment is involving one thing while another judgment involves something else. In verse 10 there is not a single mention of the 2nd death. Maybe the reason why is because a 2nd death is not applicable to satan to begin with. In order for there to be a 2nd death there has to be a first death first. In satan's case there is not even a first death involved, let alone a 2nd death involved.
You seem to have overlooked what Revelation 20:14 tells us.

Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

The second death is the act of being cast into the lake of fire, so when Satan is cast into the lake of fire, he experiences the second death as well. He did suffer a first death in a sense when he rebelled against God. He became dead in his sins just like we are until we are saved.

Equally, in verse 11-15 there is not a single mention of any humans that when they are cast into the LOF, they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Just because they all end up in the same place doesn't mean the same thing happens to all of them.
This kind of argument does not prove anything. It's known as argument from silence. Just because something isn't specifically mentioned doesn't mean it can't be true. Not all details of an event are mentioned in every passage about that event. To me, the fact that Satan being cast into the lake of fire results in eternal torment is evidence to suggest the same must be true for humans as well. It's clearly a place where eternal torment can occur since that will be the case for Satan (and we can assume the other fallen angels as well based on Matthew 25:41).

In satan's case, plus the beast and FP, plus demons, the following is their fate--- they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever---as in literally. As to humans cast into the LOF, this is their fate--the 2nd death, and that the 2nd death is not meaning this--- they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The 2nd death is meaning the opposite of what Jesus indicated in John 11:26 about the saved once they are bodily resurrected, they shall never die. Since that has to have an opposite, what would be the opposite if not this? The unsaved, after they have been bodily raised, they will die, not instead never die. And once again, in order for ECT to even be logical concerning humans, one must first have the ability to never die.
Unbelievers will die since they will experience the second death. That isn't the question. The question is what does the second death result in: annihilation or eternal torment (of some kind)? I believe the evidence points toward eternal torment.

The following verse seems to support that as well:

Matthew 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

This refers to the punishment as being eternal in contrast to the eternal life that believers will have. The punishment wouldn't be eternal if unbelievers just ceased to exist at that point.

Another thing to consider is that there are verses in scripture which indicate that the level of punishment will be more severe for some than others. That couldn't be the case if they are all just annihilated.
 
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The resurrection is also noted in Daniel 12:

2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.

Apparently resurrection is not just for believers? Or perhaps it is... one can believe in something and yet still disobey it. The use of the word "many" here always confused me; I am curious to know the original text translation now. I would have expected "all". But "many" does not imply "all" to me. So perhaps some are not returned to life one way or another? If one were to take this particular scripture out of context and stand-alone, you could arrive at that conclusion, I think.
The word "many" does not have to mean "not all". If you read John 5:28-29, Jesus makes it clear that it will be all of the dead who are resurrected. The Hebrew word translated as "many" in Daniel 12:2 can also mean "a multitude" and it can simply be referring to the number of all people who are resurrected as being "a multitude" (huge number of people). It must mean that or else Daniel 12:2 would contradict John 5:28-29.
 
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DavidPT

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The soul and spirit of man doesn't die, though. It's just our bodies that die.

If that is true why is that contradicting the following?

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.


The LORD God is the speaker in those verses. And since you are not God, who should I believe in this case? What the LORD God plainly said, or what you said which contradicts what the LORD God plainly said?

Since you obviously are not finding any of my other arguments convincing, are you still going to have us believe that you are still correct about the souls of men and that the LORD God is dead wrong concerning them? Everyone dies, even the saved. The verses above are not being applied universally. They are meaning the same thing Romans 6:23 is meaning--For the wages of sin is death. Wages are typically paid after the completion of something. Therefore, that is meaning the 2nd death, as is those passages I provided from Ezekiel 18 as well.
 
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DavidPT

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I agree, it would provoke a contradiction


Funny thing about contradictions, though. When I seem to point them out, the majority of the time these contradictions are disregarded altogether. An example of a contradiction. Jesus indicated in John 11:26 that after He bodily raises the saved, they shall never die, as in they will be alive for forever. Jesus also bodily raises the unsaved, meaning they are fully alive after they have been raised. If they experience ECT after that, this indicates they shall never die either, thus a contradiction to that of John 11:26. No matter how one wants to reason it, ECT requires that one can never die in order for ECT to be true. It doesn't matter what one thinks the second death does or does not do to anyone, it still requires that one shall never die after Jesus raises them from the dead., if applying ECT to the 2nd death.

Is anyone going to seriously argue that the unsaved are not bodily raised, thus fully bodily alive? If they experience ECT after that, how is it even logical that this does not equal they shall never die? If they never die after they are bodily raised, thus experience ECT, how can one then argue with a straight face that this does not equal they shall never die, though? Does not Jesus make them alive when He raises them from the dead? What happens to them after that? Do they remain alive for forever after being cast into the LOF? If yes, on what planet does that not equal they shall never die? I guess that means Jesus was wrong in John 11:26 since He indicated only the saved shall never die.
 
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Der Alte

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If that is true why is that contradicting the following?
Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
The LORD God is the speaker in those verses. And since you are not God, who should I believe in this case? What the LORD God plainly said, or what you said which contradicts what the LORD God plainly said?
* * *
In the OT the word "Soul(s)" is often used to mean person(s). The word "soul" occurs 479 times most of the occurrences mean "person(s) not the spiritual soul. Here are a few from each of the first 5 books.
Genesis 12:5
5 And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.
Genesis 17:14
14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
Exodus 1:5
5 And all the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were seventy souls: for Joseph was in Egypt already.
Exodus 12:4
4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.
Leviticus 5:1
1 And if a soul sin, and hear the voice of swearing, and is a witness, whether he hath seen or known of it; if he do not utter it, then he shall bear his iniquity.
Leviticus 5:2
2 Or if a soul touch any unclean thing, whether it be a carcase of an unclean beast, or a carcase of unclean cattle, or the carcase of unclean creeping things, and if it be hidden from him; he also shall be unclean, and guilty.
Numbers 9:13
13 But the man that is clean, and is not in a journey, and forbeareth to keep the passover, even the same soul shall be cut off from among his people: because he brought not the offering of the LORD in his appointed season, that man shall bear his sin.
Numbers 15:27
27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.
Deuteronomy 4:9
9 Only take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes have seen, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life: but teach them thy sons, and thy sons' sons;
.Deuteronomy 4:29
29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.


 
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DavidPT

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In the OT the word "Soul(s)" is often used to mean person(s). The word "soul" occurs 479 times most of the occurrences mean "person(s) not the spiritual soul. Here are a few from each of the first 5 books.
Genesis 12:5
5 And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.
Genesis 17:14
14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
Exodus 1:5
5 And all the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were seventy souls: for Joseph was in Egypt already.
Exodus 12:4
4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.
Leviticus 5:1
1 And if a soul sin, and hear the voice of swearing, and is a witness, whether he hath seen or known of it; if he do not utter it, then he shall bear his iniquity.
Leviticus 5:2
2 Or if a soul touch any unclean thing, whether it be a carcase of an unclean beast, or a carcase of unclean cattle, or the carcase of unclean creeping things, and if it be hidden from him; he also shall be unclean, and guilty.
Numbers 9:13
13 But the man that is clean, and is not in a journey, and forbeareth to keep the passover, even the same soul shall be cut off from among his people: because he brought not the offering of the LORD in his appointed season, that man shall bear his sin.
Numbers 15:27
27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.
Deuteronomy 4:9
9 Only take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes have seen, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life: but teach them thy sons, and thy sons' sons;
.Deuteronomy 4:29
29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.



I already fully agree that 'soul' doesn't always mean what we typically take it to mean, that sometimes it simply means the person. As to the KJV translators though, they apparently took soul in Ezekiel 18 to mean what leaves the body upon death, and not meaning like you are meaning. How can I know that for certain? Look how they translated it---the soul that sinneth, it shall die. They said 'it' shall die. A person is not an 'it', but a soul would be.
 
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If that is true why is that contradicting the following?

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.


The LORD God is the speaker in those verses. And since you are not God, who should I believe in this case? What the LORD God plainly said, or what you said which contradicts what the LORD God plainly said?
Did you pay any attention at all to what I said about the term "death"? It seems that you are still assuming that it can only refer to ceasing to exist. That is clearly not the case and I showed examples where it's not the case, but here you are still trying to tell me that I'm contradicting God because of your mistaken belief that to die can only mean to cease to exist. You always do this. You expect others to interpret scripture based on YOUR understanding of things. That isn't fair to do that.

As I have already explained, death does not have to refer to ceasing to exist. It can also refer to a separation. In this case, a separation of one's soul from God. We know from the book of Revelation that the souls of believers are in heaven with God. Where are the souls of unbelievers? In hell apart from God. So, those souls are dead in the sense of being apart from the presence of God.

When I said the soul and spirit do not die, I meant that they don't cease to exist and not that they can't die in any sense. I figured you would know what I meant, but instead here you are basically accusing me of acting like I thought God was wrong about this.

Since you obviously are not finding any of my other arguments convincing, are you still going to have us believe that you are still correct about the souls of men and that the LORD God is dead wrong concerning them?
You are unbelievably ridiculous sometimes. Do you expect me to respond to this by saying something like "Yes, I believe the LORD God is dead wrong about this". Give me a break. Of course He is right about everything. But, you are not always right in your interpretations of scripture. Don't equate your interpretations of God's Word with God's Word itself.

Everyone dies, even the saved. The verses above are not being applied universally. They are meaning the same thing Romans 6:23 is meaning--For the wages of sin is death. Wages are typically paid after the completion of something. Therefore, that is meaning the 2nd death, as is those passages I provided from Ezekiel 18 as well.
Yes, Romans 6:23 refers to the second death since it is talking about something that applies to unbelievers in contrast to the eternal life that believers will receive. What is your point? There's still the issue of determining what the second death entails. Annihilation or eternal torment? What you said here does nothing to help determine that.
 
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What does it mean to never die? It means to live forever, obviously.
But, it doesn't just mean that in the case of John 11:25-26. It means to live forever in God's presence. That is in contrast to unbelievers who will be shut out from His presence (2 Thess 1:7-9). So, the contrast has to do with either being in God's presence or apart from God's presence rather that being a contrast between existing (having consciousness) or not existing (not having consciousness). That is what I believe you're not understanding about this topic.

What does it mean to experience ECT? It means to live forever, obviously.
Again, it means more than just that, but you're not understanding that.

Is one going to argue that one can experience Eternal Conscious Torment without having to live forever? Is one going to argue that being conscious does not involve being alive, is one going to argue that eternal doesn't mean forever, yet still argue that humans cast into the LOF, their fate is ECT? What kind of arguments are any of these if they are contradictory?
Why is it that you don't appear to be willing to consider alternative definitions of death besides the ceasing of existence or consciousness?

Can you acknowledge that death can mean something other than that such as when Paul writes about us formerly being dead in our sins before being made spiritually alive in Christ?
 
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DavidPT

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This is to no one in particular, just thinking out loud. The following is basically what we have, in regards to the unsaved lost.

First they are born, then they eventually die, thus the first death. This applies to the saved as well, but the focus for now is not the saved but is the unsaved.


After they are bodily physically dead, there will come a day when God raises them from the dead bodily. And once this happens, they will be just as alive that the saved are when they are bodily raised from the dead. Doesn't mean they will have the same type of body the saved will have, it simply means they are alive the same way the saved are alive, as in literally.

After they are bodily alive again, they then stand in front of God to be judged and sentenced. Then they are cast into the LOF still bodily alive because of the bodily resurrection they partook of. ECT means never ending torment while being conscious the entire time. If ECT is true, and the fact they are already fully alive when cast into the LOF, this indicates that they can never die ever, the same thing Jesus said about the saved in John 11:26, that they shall never die. Clearly, that verse is conditional, thus doesn't apply to everyone. But if ECT is true, concerning humans, this interpretation clearly contradicts what Jesus said in John 11:26, that only the saved shall never die. He never once said in that verse the unsaved will never die either. Why then are some interpreting Scripture in such a manner that it is obviously contradicting what Jesus said in John 11:26, and then wondering why some of us refuse to agree with that interpretation?
 
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Funny thing about contradictions, though. When I seem to point them out, the majority of the time these contradictions are disregarded altogether.
Do you really think anyone here would just disregard a contradiction? Of course not. Instead, we're disagreeing with you that what you're claiming to be a contradiction is, in fact, a contradiction. That is just your opinion. It's insulting for you to suggest that any of us here would see a contradiction and then just disregard it. It is you that is seeing a contradiction in something, but some of us don't agree that it's a contradiction. Disagreeing with you about whether something is a contradiction or not does not equate to us disregarding contradictions.

If I interpret a verse in such a way that contradicts any other verse in the Bible then you better believe that I'm going to take another look at that verse and try again so that my interpretation can be reconciled with the rest of scripture.
 
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Petros2015

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ECT requires that one can never die in order for ECT to be true

Maybe it's all relative... if I was on earth, and you went into a space ship at light speed for a few years away, and then came back, maybe a year or two passes for you, but a few hundred pass for me.

If God throws something into a lake of Fire and then accelerates the whole lake away from heaven at light-speed+...

Just sayin'...
 
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This is to no one in particular, just thinking out loud. The following is basically what we have, in regards to the unsaved lost.

First they are born, then they eventually die, thus the first death. This applies to the saved as well, but the focus for now is not the saved but is the unsaved.


After they are bodily physically dead, there will come a day when God raises them from the dead bodily. And once this happens, they will be just as alive that the saved are when they are bodily raised from the dead. Doesn't mean they will have the same type of body the saved will have, it simply means they are alive the same way the saved are alive, as in literally.

After they are bodily alive again, they then stand in front of God to be judged and sentenced. Then they are cast into the LOF still bodily alive because of the bodily resurrection they partook of. ECT means never ending torment while being conscious the entire time. If ECT is true, and the fact they are already fully alive when cast into the LOF, this indicates that they can never die ever, the same thing Jesus said about the saved in John 11:26, that they shall never die. Clearly, that verse is conditional, thus doesn't apply to everyone. But if ECT is true, concerning humans, this interpretation clearly contradicts what Jesus said in John 11:26, that only the saved shall never die. He never once said in that verse the unsaved will never die either.
As far as I can tell, no one here is arguing that the unsaved will never die in the same sense that the saved will never die. Do you understand that? So, there's no point with making a straw man argument against something no one is claiming.

Why then are some interpreting Scripture in such a manner that it is obviously contradicting what Jesus said in John 11:26, and then wondering why some of us refuse to agree with that interpretation?
It's only a contradiction to you because of your assumption that for the unsaved to die (in other words, for them to experience the second death) it means they must cease to exist. It's not a contradiction at all if you understand the second death to mean an eternal conscious separation from God's presence rather than to mean that you cease to exist.
 
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DavidPT

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This kind of argument does not prove anything. It's known as argument from silence. Just because something isn't specifically mentioned doesn't mean it can't be true. Not all details of an event are mentioned in every passage about that event. To me, the fact that Satan being cast into the lake of fire results in eternal torment is evidence to suggest the same must be true for humans as well. It's clearly a place where eternal torment can occur since that will be the case for Satan (and we can assume the other fallen angels as well based on Matthew 25:41).

It's not an argument from silence. If, in verse 10 John wanted the readers to know that that involves the second death, he would have said so in that verse. If, in verses 11-15 John wanted the readers to know that that involves being tormented day and night forever and ever, he would have said so in those verses. Why did he not mention the second death, pertaining to satan in verse 10? Would it be because a second death is nonsensical concerning satan? How can a second death be relevant to satan? There has to be a first death first. And there certainly isn't in satan's case.

Why then would it be perfectly reasonable to not apply the second death to verse 10(Or maybe you disagree that that is perfectly reasonable?), but perfectly reasonable to apply this from verse 10---and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever---to that of verses 11-15? Where does it even say that in those verses? I don't see it. I for sure see it in verse 10 though, but verse 10 is not the GWTJ. That judgment involves ppl being raised from the dead. satan isn't ever raised from the dead. satan is already in the LOF when the GWTJ begins. I sure don't see any mention of him anywhere in verses 11-15, nor do I see any mention of humans in verse 10.

Since you are arguing that I'm arguing from silence, thus not proving anything, should we apply that to John 11:26 as well, that just because Jesus didn't mention the unsaved shall never die either, that that is simply an argument from silence, thus doesn't prove He never meant the unsaved as well in that verse?
 
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I already fully agree that 'soul' doesn't always mean what we typically take it to mean, that sometimes it simply means the person. As to the KJV translators though, they apparently took soul in Ezekiel 18 to mean what leaves the body upon death, and not meaning like you are meaning. How can I know that for certain? Look how they translated it---the soul that sinneth, it shall die. They said 'it' shall die. A person is not an 'it', but a soul would be.
But for the fact that the word for "it" does not occur in the Hebrew. See e.g. the NIV.
NIV Ezekiel 18:20
20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.
And even if we look carefully at other versions such as good old King Jimmy it is clear that the verse is not talking about death of the soul.
Ezekiel 18:20
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Note "The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son:" NOT "The [soul of the] son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the [soul of the] father bear the iniquity of the son:"

 
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DavidPT

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But for the fact that the word for "it" does not occur in the Hebrew. See e.g. the NIV.
NIV Ezekiel 18:20
20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.
And even if we look carefully at other versions such as good old King Jimmy it is clear that the verse is not talking about death of the soul.
Ezekiel 18:20
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Note "The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son:" NOT "The [soul of the] son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the [soul of the] father bear the iniquity of the son:"


I do fully agree with you that 'it' does not occur in the Hebrew. My point was this. The KJV translators, regardless whether they were right or wrong to do so, apparently took 'soul' in the verses in question to be meaning the part of man that leaves the body upon death. I'm not claiming that then automatically makes them correct, though. I'm just pointing out that they apparently took it to mean the soul of someone, the fact they said 'it', in regards to the soul. That at least should mean that there was already belief in the death of the soul even back then, otherwise why would they have translated it like such---the soul that sinneth, it shall die?
 
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It's not an argument from silence. If, in verse 10 John wanted the readers to know that that involves the second death, he would have said so in that verse.
I think you missed the point. Revelation 20:14 very specifically says that the lake of fire is the second death. Are you denying that? With that being the case (second death = lake of fire), then how can we think that Satan being cast into the lake of fire is not a case of him being sentenced to the second death?

If, in verses 11-15 John wanted the readers to know that that involves being tormented day and night forever and ever, he would have said so in those verses.
How would you know something like that? You don't. I think it's quite reasonable to assume that he didn't mention that detail because he already indicated that being cast into the lake of fire results in eternal torment in Revelation 20:10. So, why point that out again when he already pointed it out before?

Why did he not mention the second death, pertaining to satan in verse 10?
Why did he need to? He said in verse 14 that the second death is the lake of fire. Why would he need to point that out more than once?

Would it be because a second death is nonsensical concerning satan? How can a second death be relevant to satan? There has to be a first death first. And there certainly isn't in satan's case.
I already addressed this. I said that when he sinned he became dead in sins just like humans are dead in sins before being made alive in Christ when we're saved (Eph 2:1-6). So, being cast into the lake of fire can be seen as a second death even for Satan.

Why then would it be perfectly reasonable to not apply the second death to verse 10(Or maybe you disagree that that is perfectly reasonable?), but perfectly reasonable to apply this from verse 10---and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever---to that of verses 11-15? Where does it even say that in those verses? I don't see it. I for sure see it in verse 10 though, but verse 10 is not the GWTJ. That judgment involves ppl being raised from the dead. satan isn't ever raised from the dead. satan is already in the LOF when the GWTJ begins. I sure don't see any mention of him anywhere in verses 11-15, nor do I see any mention of humans in verse 10.
I understand that you are someone who needs scripture to spell something out to you in order to believe in it. In your way of looking at things, either something is said explicitly or it can't be true. But, thankfully, Revelation 20:10-15 isn't the only passage we have that tells us something about the destiny of unbelievers. There are more passages than just Revelation 20:10-15 that we can refer to in order to determine their fate.

Matthew 11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. 23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

If unbelievers will just cease to exist upon being cast into the lake of fire, then how can a passage like this make any sense? How can it be worse for some unbelievers than other unbelievers on the day of judgment (the judgment described in Rev 20:11-15) if their fate is all the same (ceasing to exist)? That would not make any sense.

Since you are arguing that I'm arguing from silence, thus not proving anything, should we apply that to John 11:26 as well, that just because Jesus didn't mention the unsaved shall never die either, that that is simply an argument from silence, thus doesn't prove He never meant the unsaved as well in that verse?
Yes, that would be an argument from silence because He didn't say anything one way or another about the unsaved in that verse. We can't conclude for certain the unsaved die or never die just from John 11:26 alone since Jesus only said there that believers never die. We can conclude that He was only talking about believers there because we know unbelievers will experience the second death (Rev 20:14-15).
 
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