Does the ELCA have social teachings on the gay wedding controversy?

[FireDragon76]

I have been searching for an answer on this question as to whether the ELCA has any social statements pertaining to the practice of some Christians refusing to bake cakes or render services to gay couples who are obtaining a civil marriage. I have wanted to discuss it with my pastor, but he has been busy lately, as we are entering the holiday season, and I have not talked to him in some time.

I believe a Christian is free to bake a cake or take photographs for a gay couple, regardless of what our views are on gay marriage. I believe it is wrong and spiritually dangerous to bind peoples consciences to the notion that this is somehow a sin to do so, and by refusing to serve our gay neighbors, that it it violates the commandments of God towards loving our neighbor. It is also not a form of participation in sin, even if one views gay marriage as less than ideal or not according to God's created order. It also is an intrinsically fearful act that does not speak to confidence in God's grace, therefore it is a poor Christian witness in a pluralistic world.

Therefore, I do not believe I can in good conscience have fellowship with those who see it otherwise. I believe Jesus loves all people and our behavior should reflect that love and should be prodigally gracious towards anyone, particularly those that are different than us, those that are marginalized, and I am surprise I have never heard prominent ELCA Lutheran speak out on this issue. It saddens me a great deal that people are discriminating in the name of the One who was called a "friend of sinners". Jesus had stern warnings for anyone who would create that kind of offense, and people deserve to be warned.

I do not care so much what the Supreme Court rules on this matter, whether it is lawful or not for a business to refuse service based on religious objections to same-sex marrriage. There are higher laws than man's laws and we must remind Christians of this fact. Voices in our churches need to be absolutely clear on this issue that our vocations should involve serving our neighbor, and not denigrating or shaming our neighbor in any way.

 

[salt-n-light]

So your conscience feels more at peace with people participating in the celebration of sin than to fellowship with those that oppose the sin?

Interesting.

 

[FireDragon76]

So your conscience feels more at peace with people participating in the celebration of sin than to fellowship with those that oppose the sin?

Interesting.

Photographing a couple or baking a cake is not a celebration, it does not solemnize their relationship, it is a service to people who may or may not agree with you, but its still a service that we may be called to do.

Jesus said we should go the extra mile and we should not refuse an evil man. What part of this is not clear to you, exactly?

We Lutherans recognize that to try to escape sin through our own righteousness may bring the ultimate condemnation in God's judgment. Therefore, we should live with bold confidence in God's grace. Our ethics should not be based on our own righteousness, but the real needs of our neighbor. And the only way we can truly know the needs of our neighbor is through humble, nonjudgmental service.

 

[salt-n-light]

Photographing a couple or baking a cake is not a celebration, it does not solemnize their relationship, it is a service to people who may or may not agree with you, but its still a service that we may be called to do.

Jesus said we should go the extra mile and we should not refuse an evil man. What part of this is not clear to you, exactly?

We Lutherans recognize that to try to escape sin through our own righteousness may bring the ultimate condemnation in God's judgment. Therefore, we should live with bold confidence in God's grace. Our ethics should not be based on our own righteousness, but the real needs of our neighbor. And the only way we can truly know the needs of our neighbor is through humble, nonjudgmental service.

God would not "call you" to participate in sin. Period. Yes feed them, yes clothe them and show hospitality, yes don't belittle them, but no not be in communion with sin, and not be apart of its celebration. Because it is. You're knowingly photographing them kissing, and hugging, and displaying a lie.I don't see how you can separate that.

They don't need christian photographers to be photographing their "marriage", let someone else do that, they need God. A christian catering to that, because you want to please man and save a business that God has given you in the first place, is ultimately not helping them. Our ethnics can never stand on own own judgment or righteousness, but only through the authoritative Word of God can we make righteous judgement on situations like this.

 

[Tigger45]

I have been searching for an answer on this question as to whether the ELCA has any social statements pertaining to the practice of some Christians refusing to bake cakes or render services to gay couples who are obtaining a civil marriage. I have wanted to discuss it with my pastor, but he has been busy lately, as we are entering the holiday season, and I have not talked to him in some time.

I believe a Christian is free to bake a cake or take photographs for a gay couple, regardless of what our views are on gay marriage. I believe it is wrong and spiritually dangerous to bind peoples consciences to the notion that this is somehow a sin to do so, and by refusing to serve our gay neighbors, that it it violates the commandments of God towards loving our neighbor. It is also not a form of participation in sin, even if one views gay marriage as less than ideal or not according to God's created order. It also is an intrinsically fearful act that does not speak to confidence in God's grace, therefore it is a poor Christian witness in a pluralistic world.

Therefore, I do not believe I can in good conscience have fellowship with those who see it otherwise. I believe Jesus loves all people and our behavior should reflect that love and should be prodigally gracious towards anyone, particularly those that are different than us, those that are marginalized, and I am surprise I have never heard prominent ELCA Lutheran speak out on this issue. It saddens me a great deal that people are discriminating in the name of the One who was called a "friend of sinners". Jesus had stern warnings for anyone who would create that kind of offense, and people deserve to be warned.

I do not care so much what the Supreme Court rules on this matter, whether it is lawful or not for a business to refuse service based on religious objections to same-sex marrriage. There are higher laws than man's laws and we must remind Christians of this fact. Voices in our churches need to be absolutely clear on this issue that our vocations should involve serving our neighbor, and not denigrating or shaming our neighbor in any way.

I agree where baking a cake for a gay wedding in of itself doesn’t condone homosexuality or SSM but on the other hand concerning the practices of fellow believers you might want to meditate upon Romans 14:2

 

[FireDragon76]

I agree where baking a cake for a gay wedding in of itself doesn’t condone homosexuality or SSM but on the other hand concerning the practices of fellow believers you might want to meditate upon Romans 14:2

I did consider this and I do think there is room for further discussion, however, I also think eating meat or not eating meat for Paul was a trivial thing, adiaphoron. Not rendering service to another human being on religious grounds, though, is not adiaphoron. It's a grave matter. Just like for Paul, judaizing was not a trivial matter, but attacked the heart of the Gospel, to the point he was willing to make it an issue with Peter.

As near as I can tell, our church does not advocate discrimination against gays in public services. I think that would cover photographers and bakers. But it is not something I have seen discussed specifically.

 

[FireDragon76]

God would not "call you" to participate in sin. Period. Yes feed them, yes clothe them and show hospitality, yes don't belittle them, but no not be in communion with sin, and not be apart of its celebration. Because it is. You're knowingly photographing them kissing, and hugging, and displaying a lie.I don't see how you can separate that.

Love is never a lie. It may be misguided, but it is not a lie. To say otherwise is to advocate an anti-personalist ethic that strikes at the heart of the Christian faith. We may be our brother's keeper, but we are not his judge.

A christian catering to that, because you want to please man and save a business that God has given you in the first place, is ultimately not helping them.

Pleasing man should not be throughtlessly disparaged. We are Lutherans, we are humanistic in our orientation. Because God is a humanist. Desiring to please our neighbor is not wrong. We should seek to live in peace, as much as possible, with all people. Or else what is our religion? A farce, a cruel joke. We are not antinomians. And we view self-righteousness with the most contempt.

 

[FireDragon76]

I asked my pastor about this today at lunch and he said I was correct, and that refusing to cater a gay wedding because the people are gay is just bad moral theology and isn't consistent with how we see living the Christian life.

My pastor is one of the more conservative voices in our local synod so I think this viewpoint would be unanimous in our denomination among pastors.

Our church still permits people in good conscience to disagree on whether homosexual sex acts are sinful and whether gays can be married or not, but we have had public service non-discrimination clauses for some time, even before the 2009 assembly that lead to some of our brethren separating from us.

 

[ViaCrucis]

.

 

[ViaCrucis]

God would not "call you" to participate in sin. Period. Yes feed them, yes clothe them and show hospitality, yes don't belittle them, but no not be in communion with sin, and not be apart of its celebration. Because it is. You're knowingly photographing them kissing, and hugging, and displaying a lie.I don't see how you can separate that.

They don't need christian photographers to be photographing their "marriage", let someone else do that, they need God. A christian catering to that, because you want to please man and save a business that God has given you in the first place, is ultimately not helping them. Our ethnics can never stand on own own judgment or righteousness, but only through the authoritative Word of God can we make righteous judgement on situations like this.

Serving our neighbor through our vocation is Christian ministry. If you work at a soup kitchen that means providing food for the homeless, if you work at a bakery that means baking cakes for your neighbor. Our vocational ministry is specifically for our neighbor, it is through this service that we are Christians toward our neighbor. A Christian baker doesn't bake cakes just for other Christians, a Christian baker bakes cakes for fellow human beings, fellow sinners, and does so joyfully and in love because that's what being a Christian neighbor means. "But they're gay!" is irrelevant, just as "But they're adulterers!" or "But they're greedy! or "But they worship other gods!" doesn't matter. We tend to the needs of our neighbors, we serve others in loving-kindness in imitation of Christ--we love and serve others as is our sacred vocation and duty as the baptized people of Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[salt-n-light]

Serving our neighbor through our vocation is Christian ministry. If you work at a soup kitchen that means providing food for the homeless, if you work at a bakery that means baking cakes for your neighbor. Our vocational ministry is specifically for our neighbor, it is through this service that we are Christians toward our neighbor. A Christian baker doesn't bake cakes just for other Christians, a Christian baker bakes cakes for fellow human beings, fellow sinners, and does so joyfully and in love because that's what being a Christian neighbor means. "But they're gay!" is irrelevant, just as "But they're adulterers!" or "But they're greedy! or "But they worship other gods!" doesn't matter. We tend to the needs of our neighbors, we serve others in loving-kindness in imitation of Christ--we love and serve others as is our sacred vocation and duty as the baptized people of Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

I would agree, if its just a cake. But its a wedding cake, so its for a specific occasion. The couple is asking the Christian baker to be part of that, just like if you were to ask for a photographer, a cook, an organizer, caterers to take part. You wouldn't view them as people that weren't part of it. Yes we are call to serve, but not in compromising positions. Saying no, isn't the end of the world. And I don't see why we should force our Christian brethren to say yes.

 

[FireDragon76]

It's not a sin to bake a cake for two gay people. It's not like you are sleeping with them. Being a cake baker no more requires the approval of the baker than being a news photographer requires approval of war.

The baker that refuses to bake a cake for two gay men because they are gay and having a ceremony to commemorate their relationship, which the baker does not approve of, is engaged in judgment of his neighbor, and that is a deadly sin.

A photographer or baker at a wedding is not a participant in the wedding in a Christian sense. He or she does not solemnize the marriage. Only the couple themselves do that. To bind consciences contrary to this, and declare it God's will, is wrong, and people that support this and teach others to do likewise are in danger for their souls, because they present a scandal, a stumbling block, in the name of Jesus.

 

[salt-n-light]

It's not a sin to bake a cake for two gay people. It's not like you are sleeping with them. Being a cake baker no more requires the approval of the baker than being a news photographer requires approval of war.

The baker that refuses to bake a cake for two gay men because they are gay and having a ceremony to commemorate their relationship, which the baker does not approve of, is engaged in personal judgment of his neighbor, and that is a deadly sin.

The baker not involving theirselves in a sinful act, wouldn't be a personal judgement of his neighbor, its a righteous judgement of the situation. We don't have authority to say no, but under the authority of God's Word. God's word is very clear about that form of relationship and those who support it.

Saying no won't make them not get married, they will still get married, whether or not the baker serve the cake. Its not a " I hate you, you're not worthy of a cake". Its a " I'm choosing not to participate in something that dishonors God." Its up to each Christian baker to make that decision. But again, it should not be forced for them to do it, and they should not be shamed if they choose to say no.

Stop shaming the bakers.

 

[FireDragon76]

You make their lives a bit less happy, even if they are still married. You do not have the right to do that. They asked something from you, you refused and you "righteously" judged them. So God is free to righteously judge you, the sinner you are, because you did not extend mercy.

God doesn't particularly need your honor. Your sacrifices to God are filthy rags to him that can only make him laugh in how pathetic they are. But your neighbor needs your compassion, and it is what Jesus has called us to do.

 

[salt-n-light]

You make their lives a bit less happy, even if they are still married. You do not have the right to do that. They asked something from you, you refused and you "righteously" judged them. So God is free to righteously judge you, the sinner you are, because you did not extend mercy.

Do you know what righteous judgement mean, and the difference between unrighteous and righteous judgement?

 

[FireDragon76]

Do you know what righteous judgement mean, and the difference between unrighteous and righteous judgement?

It's not particularly relevant to Lutherans. We do not view ourselves as righteous, we are given an alien righteousness that covers us. Sinners like us are not capable of righteous judgments. Leave that to God. Just love your neighbor.

 

[salt-n-light]

It's not particularly relevant to Lutherans. We do not view ourselves as righteous, we are given an alien righteousness that covers us. Sinners like us are not capable of righteous judgments. Leave that to God. Just love your neighbor.

"Alien righteousness"? What's that?

 

[FireDragon76]

The baker not involving theirselves in a sinful act, wouldn't be a personal judgement of his neighbor, its a righteous judgement of the situation. We don't have authority to say no, but under the authority of God's Word. God's word is very clear about that form of relationship and those who support it.

Saying no won't make them not get married, they will still get married, whether or not the baker serve the cake. Its not a " I hate you, you're not worthy of a cake". Its a " I'm choosing not to participate in something that dishonors God." Its up to each Christian baker to make that decision. But again, it should not be forced for them to do it, and they should not be shamed if they choose to say no.

Stop shaming the bakers.

"Alien righteousness"? What's that?

The righteousness of Christ imputed or reckoned to us. It does not necessarily make us righteous in the sense that we become sinless. We have the gifts of faith, hope and love, but we are still sinners.

We Lutherans are not Pentecostals, we do not teach this notion that Christians are perfect or that they automatically have supernatural gifts of discernment, and it is dangerous to presume that any of us have that sort of thing, as there in no specific divine promise to that effect in the Bible. The Holy Spirit primarily works by causing us to believe and to have faith. So we play with "righteous judgment" at our peril. Our righteous judgment is more often than not, just human opinion and prejudice that has been sexed up with a bit of religious piety and the traditions of men.

 

[salt-n-light]

The righteousness of Christ imputed or reckoned to us. It does not necessarily make us righteous in the sense that we become sinless. We have the gifts of faith, hope and love, but we are still sinners.

We Lutherans are not Pentecostals, we do not emphasize this notion that Christians are perfect or that they automatically have supernatural gifts of discernment, and it is dangerous to presume that any of us have that sort of thing, as there in no specific divine promise to that effect in the Bible. For us, the Holy Spirit primarily works by causing us to believe and to have faith. So we play with "righteous judgment" at our peril. Our righteous judgmetns are more often than not, just human opinions that have been sexed up with a bit of religious piety and the traditions of men.

How did pentecostals come into the conversation again?

 

[FireDragon76]

How did pentecostals come into the conversation again?

I'm just using it as an example. They tend to be the most common group that takes this notion of instant perfection as a given. We Lutherans reject it. Our lives are complicated, we are saints yes, but we are also sinners at the same time. Therefore, we don't play God, we don't speak for God unless it is clear through biblical evidence and plain reason. Not just pious whims so common in other evangelical churches. We actually want rock-solid certainty before we go spouting off what is God's design or God's will.