Does The Church Not Understand Sex Crimes?

Brotherly Spirit

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While I tend to dislike generalizing, it does seem churches have problems regarding responsibility and accountability when it comes to sexual abuse. I think where there's people the possibility exists to act wrongfully, both Andy Savage and Larry Cotton; neither had correct judgment and misused their authority. They represent two-sides of the same coin, each abusing their authority in a different way; there should be proper consequences for both. As the article explains, it's not only a question of immorality but also ethically and legally. So while God and people can forgive, it doesn't excuse what happened.
 
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PloverWing

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I think things are getting better, in at least some churches; I'm starting to see procedures in place for preventing the sexual abuse of authority and reporting it when it happens.

But thinking back over the sex education I received in church and Christian-school settings: There was lots and lots of emphasis on avoiding premarital sex. In church youth group, in college-age youth group, in the sex education classes at my Christian school. Amongst ourselves, we invested a lot of energy in figuring out just how "far" you could go before it crossed the line. In all of that, though, I don't remember any attention being given to the idea of people in authority abusing that authority in sexual ways.

The first mass-market information campaign that I saw about this issue was the "My strength is not for hurting" series of posters. (If you didn't see them, they were posters that showed two people in an affectionate pose, with a caption like "So when I wanted to and she didn’t, we didn’t.") The first time I saw one of those posters, I cried. I was well into adulthood, and these posters came from a secular source, not any church.

Maybe the trouble is that if the whole focus is on preserving virginity, all non-marital sexual acts get lumped into the same "immoral" bucket, so that consensual premarital sex and sexual predation by clergy are considered equally bad; thus, sexual predation is seen as no worse than a couple of college students having consensual sex. I think this is the attitude I grew up with. The article touches on this problem.
 
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mkgal1

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In all of that, though, I don't remember any attention being given to the idea of people in authority abusing that authority in sexual ways.
That's a really good point....I still haven't seen much from the church as it pertains to this (there still seems to be a lot of evading the issue).
The first mass-market information campaign that I saw about this issue was the "My strength is not for hurting" series of posters. (If you didn't see them, they were posters that showed two people in an affectionate pose, with a caption like "So when I wanted to and she didn’t, we didn’t.") The first time I saw one of those posters, I cried. I was well into adulthood, and these posters came from a secular source, not any church.
It does seem to me (in the U.S. anyway) that our secular culture *is* advanced--compared to the mainstream church-- in bringing this to light and educating people in what is "right" and what's "wrong" behavior (sadly).

I wasn't even aware of this campaign (I looked it up). It sounds like we could use another round: Men Can Stop Rape: SAYING GOODBYE TO “MY STRENGTH IS NOT FOR HURTING”
 
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Radagast

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I think this is the case, what do you think?

Heres some food for thought, in this opinion piece:

Andy Savage Teaches Us That Churches Don't Understand Sex Crimes

Andy Savage was, at the time, not a clergyman, but an undergraduate marketing student and youth group leader. He had sex with his girlfriend, who was over the age of consent in Texas. That's at least one sin, and at least two cases of inappropriate behaviour by a youth group leader (having a relationship with a student in his care and having sex with her), but no actual crime under Texas law, so I'm not sure "sex crime" is the right term.
 
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Dave-W

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Maybe the trouble is that if the whole focus is on preserving virginity, all non-marital sexual acts get lumped into the same "immoral" bucket, so that consensual premarital sex and sexual predation by clergy are considered equally bad; thus, sexual predation is seen as no worse than a couple of college students having consensual sex. I think this is the attitude I grew up with. The article touches on this problem.
That and a false doctrine declaring all sins equal in God's eyes. That makes murder no worse than a "little white lie." Sexual predation would be no worse either.
 
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Radagast

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Sexual assault isn't a crime in Texas?

There was no sexual assault. The woman herself says she was asked to perform sexual acts and did so. That is, it was consensual. No force was used.

If she had been younger, it would have been statutory rape, but she wasn't.

If he had been a clergyman it might also have been sexual assault under a special proviso of Texas law, but he wasn't a clergyman at the time (he hadn't even started seminary, he was a marketing student).

It was still wrong, and she would probably have had grounds for a lawsuit, but there was no sexual assault and no crime.
 
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mkgal1

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There was no sexual assault; the woman herself says she was asked to perform sexual acts and did so. That is, it was consensual. No force was used.
No....that's not consent. I believe 17 is also under age in Texas....but, besides that, there's this (from the article):

Texas law at the time made it illegal for a clergyman to use his role as a spiritual adviser to exploit someone’s emotional dependence for sex. But the statue of limitations had passed by the time Woodson filed her police report, so no charges were able to be brought against Savage.
Read more at Andy Savage Teaches Us That Churches Don't Understand Sex Crimes.
99​

There was coercion and an imbalance of power (there doesn't have to be physical force). It's skating the line of definition to say he wasn't officially "clergy"...that he was just a youth pastor.

Fortunately our civil laws are aware of this. He only got away with it because the statute of limitations has run out (and it was kept secret by those that knew---like the pastor that did step down). At least one man has a conscience.
 
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Radagast

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No....that's not consent. I believe 17 is also under age in Texas

Look it up. The age of consent is 17.

Texas law at the time made it illegal for a clergyman to use his role as a spiritual adviser to exploit someone’s emotional dependence for sex. But the statue of limitations had passed by the time Woodson filed her police report, so no charges were able to be brought against Savage.

There's case law on that. Andy Savage wasn't a clergyman at the time (hadn't been ordained, hadn't been to seminary, did not preach, did not perform weddings and funerals).

And when Woodson filed her police report, police confirmed no laws had been broken. They did not mention "statute of limitations." So there's at least one blatant lie there.

There was coercion and an imbalance of power (there doesn't have to be physical force).

That's an opinion that does not seem to me borne out by the facts.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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That's a really good point....I still haven't seen much from the church as it pertains to this (there still seems to be a lot of evading the issue).

It does seem to me (in the U.S. anyway) that our secular culture *is* advanced--compared to the mainstream church-- in bringing this to light and educating people in what is "right" and what's "wrong" behavior (sadly).

I wasn't even aware of this campaign (I looked it up). It sounds like we could use another round: Men Can Stop Rape: SAYING GOODBYE TO “MY STRENGTH IS NOT FOR HURTING”
Yes your right. It is high time.
 
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mkgal1

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And when Woodson filed her police report, police confirmed no laws had been broken. They did not mention "statute of limitations." So there's at least one blatant lie there.
Interesting. So now are you implying Jules Woodson is a liar? This may be a big part of the reason why women don't come forward (although she *had*......it's just that, from what I've read, she only told the church leaders and left it at that). Also, from what I've read, in Texas the statute of limitations on sexual assault is 15 years from the victim's 18th birthday. From what I understand.....this happened twenty years ago (which would mean the statute of limitations has run out).

Where are you getting your information from that suggests it's a lie (and that police confirmed no laws had been broken)? I'm not a lawyer or a law student, but I wasn't aware that LEO are the ones to determine whether or not there's been a sexual crime committed when charges are pressed. I've always thought that's up to the courts to decide.
 
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mkgal1

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That's an opinion that does not seem to me borne out by the facts.
Facts:

He was her youth pastor (imbalance of power).

He was giving her a ride home (he made the offer/she didn't ask).

He drove to a secluded spot (not at her request) where she couldn't see the road.

He unzipped his pants and asked her to perform oral sex on him.

She said she was scared and embarrassed.

Afterwards (in her words):

"he suddenly stopped, got out of the truck and ran around the back and to my side before falling to his knees. I quickly buttoned my shirt back up and got out of the truck. Now I was terrified and ashamed. I remember him pleading, while he was on his knees with his hands up on his head, ‘Oh my god, oh my god. What have I done? Oh my god, I'm so sorry. You can't tell anyone Jules, please. You have to take this to the grave with you.’ He said that several times. My fear and shame quickly turned to anger. I had just been manipulated and used. I swore to him I wouldn't tell anyone just to get him to stop. We both got back in the truck. As he drove me home, I don’t remember there being any conversation. I was in shock."~Watch Keep: Silent no more: a survivor of sexual assault by prominent Memphis pastor Andy Savage shares her story #metoo #churchtoo #silenceisnotspiritual
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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Facts:

He was her youth pastor.

He was giving her a ride home (he made the offer/she didn't ask).

He drove to a secluded spot (not at her request).

He unzipped his pants and asked her to perform oral sex on him.

She said she was scared and embarrassed.

Afterwards (in her words):

"he suddenly stopped, got out of the truck and ran around the back and to my side before falling to his knees. I quickly buttoned my shirt back up and got out of the truck. Now I was terrified and ashamed. I remember him pleading, while he was on his knees with his hands up on his head, ‘Oh my god, oh my god. What have I done? Oh my god, I'm so sorry. You can't tell anyone Jules, please. You have to take this to the grave with you.’ He said that several times. My fear and shame quickly turned to anger. I had just been manipulated and used. I swore to him I wouldn't tell anyone just to get him to stop. We both got back in the truck. As he drove me home, I don’t remember there being any conversation. I was in shock."~Watch Keep: Silent no more: a survivor of sexual assault by prominent Memphis pastor Andy Savage shares her story #metoo #churchtoo #silenceisnotspiritual
This is a very old story. If you research the forums for hot topics I'm sure you'll find it. It came down to whether it is legal to use a penis as a weapon.

PS the sword of the word of God is no match. Just the flame.
 
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mkgal1

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This is a very old story. If you research the forums for hot topics I'm sure you'll find it. It came down to whether it is legal to use a penis as a weapon.

PS the sword of the word of God is no match. Just the flame.
Old from when it happened, but it seems that it's pretty recent as to when this was all brought back up again:

From this link: Watch Keep: Silent no more: a survivor of sexual assault by prominent Memphis pastor Andy Savage shares her story #metoo #churchtoo #silenceisnotspiritual


On December 1, 2017, the following email was sent by Jules Woodson to Andy Savage, co-founder and teaching pastor at Highpoint Church in Memphis, Tennessee. The church has three locations throughout the Memphis area.
From: Jules Woodson .
Date: 12/1/17 9:21 AM (GMT-07:00)
To: andy.savage@highpointmemphis.com
Subject: Do you remember?

Do you remember that night that you were supposed to drive me home from church and instead drove me to a deserted back road and sexually assaulted me?
Do you remember how you acted like you loved me and cared about me in order for me to cooperate in such acts, only to run out of the vehicle later and fall to your knees begging for forgiveness and for me not to tell anyone what had just happened?
Well, I REMEMBER.
#me-too
To date, Andy has not replied
********************************
I don't understand your comment about "It came down to whether it is legal to use a penis as a weapon"?

This shouldn't be that difficult for people to see the wrong in this (but, for some reason, it seems it is).
 
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mkgal1

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yes, isnt it a weapon, including one that can be lethal if a fatal virus comes out of it?
Yes.....and to reverse it (to suggest it's NOT a "weapon") would mean there's no harm to be done. So.....does that mean rape and sexual assault is just no big deal? No harm? Am I understanding how this discussion is actually going?
 
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teresa

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Am I understanding how this discussion is actually going?
i don't know sometimes; I often need to go away and come back to see something and understand better. I appreciate your comments so much, as you're a much better thinker than I am.
 
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mkgal1

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@hope ~ I think we can safely answer your question in the title of this thread. "Yes....the church does not understand sex crimes".

I'm thankful our secular culture is moral (making improvements in that, at least).
 
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mkgal1

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i don't know sometimes; I often need to go away and come back to see something and understand better. I appreciate your comments so much, as you're a much better thinker than I am.
To be honest, I'm getting a bit thrown off and frazzled by some of these comments (but thanks <3 ).
 
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