Does the Bible say the Earth is Flat?

Agonaces of Susa

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<staff edit>
"I would always trust the old wives' fables against the old maids facts." -- G. K. Chesterton, philosopher, Orthodoxy, Chapter IV: The Ethics of Elfland, 1909
 
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Mike Elphick

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Mike Elphick said:
The Earth is not suspended in space

I agree. Space is not a physical material object.

Space is not the same thing as nothingness — it consists of an imperfect vacuum containing a few particles as well as radiation. Even if it did not contain these things, a perfect vacuum still isn't nothingness. The Big Bang theory has it that there was an explosion of space into nothingness, or more correctly an expansion of spacetime. Did you know, that even in a perfect vacuum, particles pop in and out of existence?

Agonaces of Susa said:
Mike Elphick said:
actually, it is travelling through space at high speed as it orbits the sun.

If you read the Bible you would know that.

"And he [Methuselah] was moreover with the angels of God these six jubilees of years, and they showed him everything which is on the earth and in the heavens, the rule of the sun, and he wrote down everything." -- Jubilees 4:21

Reading the scriptures tells me that the 'rule of the sun' was that it disappeared out of a western portal of heaven (firmament) to make its way, via the north, back through an eastern portal:-

Enoch 72:3-6
And this is the first law of the luminaries: the luminary the Sun has its rising in the eastern portals of the heaven, 3 and its setting in the western portals of the heaven. And I saw six portals in which the sun rises, and six portals in which the sun sets and the moon rises and sets in these portals, and the leaders of the stars and those whom they lead: six in the east and six in the west, and all following each other 4 in accurately corresponding order: also many windows to the right and left of these portals. And first there goes forth the great luminary, named the Sun, and his circumference is like the 5 circumference of the heaven, and he is quite filled with illuminating and heating fire. The chariot on which he ascends, the wind drives, and the sun goes down from the heaven and returns through the north in order to reach the east, and is so guided that he comes to the appropriate (lit. ' that ') portal and 6 shines in the face of the heaven.

Agonaces of Susa said:
Mike Elphick said:
If Job wanted to say that Earth was surrounded by space, why didn't he say so?

Because Job knew that space is not a physical material object and therefore does not exist.

Of course space exists, but Job would not be aware of the nature of space and therefore he couldn't say anything about it.

Agonaces of Susa said:
Mike Elphick said:
The Hebrew word for 'upon' can also be translated as 'over' and the JPS Tanakh translates this verse:- "He stretcheth out the north over the empty space, and hangeth the earth over nothing.

It is an expression.

Do you claim that the Earth hangs on turtles all the way down?

Don't be silly! Job, like most people of his time, thought the Earth and its pillars hung over, or floated upon, the Great Deep.

Agonaces of Susa said:
Mike Elphick said:
This makes more sense in the light of ancient Hebrew cosmology. Remember the Great Deep? I think Job is describing how the Earth is 'hanging' over the watery abbys, in a multi-tiered view of the cosmos. See Deuteronomy 33:13 (KJV):- "And of Joseph he said, Blessed of the LORD be his land, for the precious things of heaven, for the dew, and for the deep that coucheth beneath," Incidentally, the 'north' is where God was supposed to sit on a throne (the centre of of the night sky around which the stars appear to revolve

Unfortunately, you don't know any ancient Hebrew cosmology.

I clearly know rather more than you.

Agonaces of Susa said:
Mike Elphick said:
The Hebrew word that is translated as 'compassed' is chuwg, which has the meaning 'circle'.

Exactly.

Do you claim the Earth is a square or a cube?

We're not talking about what shape the Earth actually is, but what shape the ancient Hebrews thought it was. At that time they were describing the Earth as a circular disk held on pillar supports over the Great Deep. A dome (the firmament) covered the disk, much like an upturned teacup on a saucer. I'm tempted to show you the diagram, but you must have seen it hundreds of times already.

Agonaces of Susa said:
Mike Elphick said:
This verse is like Proverbs 8:27:- "When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:" (KJV)

The English Standard Version translates Job 26:10 so:- "He has inscribed a circle on the face of the waters at the boundary between light and darkness."

Exactly. Do you claim the Earth is a square or a cube?

Oh dear. See:- Does the Bible teach that the earth is flat?, or better:- The Geographical Meaning of "Earth" and "Seas" in Genesis 1:10.

Agonaces of Susa said:
It's sad that Darwinists have to deny reality.

But I'm not denying reality. All I am saying is that the ancient Hebrews hadn't much of a clue about the true nature of the cosmos.
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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Space is not the same thing as nothingness
That depends on whether you mean space as void or space as outerspace.

— it consists of an imperfect vacuum containing a few particles as well as radiation.
"There is no vacuum." -- Gottfried W. Leibniz, polymath, 1689

"Space is filled with electrons and of flying electric ions of all kinds." -- Kristian Birkeland, physicist, 1913

Even if it did not contain these things, a perfect vacuum still isn't nothingness.
Nothingness cannot exist.

"There is no vacuum." -- Gottfried W. Leibniz, polymath, 1689

The Big Bang theory has it that there was an explosion of space into nothingness, or more correctly an expansion of spacetime.
The Big Bang is not a theory, it's a falsified 20th century pseudoscientific hypothesis.

Nothingness cannot exist.

Spacetime does not exist.

Did you know, that even in a perfect vacuum, particles pop in and out of existence?
"There is no vacuum." -- Gottfried W. Leibniz, polymath, 1689

But I agree particles come into being and are destroyed.

Reading the scriptures tells me that the 'rule of the sun' was that it disappeared out of a western portal of heaven (firmament) to make its way, via the north, back through an eastern portal:-
Reading the Scriptures tells me the opposite.

"And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed..." -- Joshua 10:13

"Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day." -- Joshua 10:13

"And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the LORD: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down in the dial of Ahaz." -- II Kings 20:11

"Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down." -- Isaiah 38:8

"And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord God, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:" -- Amos 8:9

"Therefore night shall be unto you, that ye shall not have a vision; and it shall be dark unto you, that ye shall not divine; and the sun shall go down over the prophets, and the day shall be dark over them. Then shall the seers be ashamed, and the diviners confounded: yea, they shall all cover their lips; for there is no answer of God." -- Micah 3:6-7

Of course space exists, but Job would not be aware of the nature of space and therefore he couldn't say anything about it.
Outerspace does exist.

Don't be silly! Job, like most people of his time, thought the Earth and its pillars hung over, or floated upon, the Great Deep.
"He [God] stretcheth out the north over the empty space, and hangeth the earth upon nothing." -- Job 26:7

I clearly know rather more than you.
We can all dream.
 
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Mike Elphick

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Mike Elphick said:
Space is not the same thing as nothingness

That depends on whether you mean space as void or space as outerspace.

You know perfectly well we are talking about the environment around the Earth that extends out to the boundary of the universe. That is the space in which the Earth is not 'suspended'.

Agonaces of Susa said:
Mike Elphick said:
&#8212; it consists of an imperfect vacuum containing a few particles as well as radiation.

"There is no vacuum." -- Gottfried W. Leibniz, polymath, 1689

"Space is filled with electrons and of flying electric ions of all kinds." -- Kristian Birkeland, physicist, 1913

For goodness sake man, that's exactly what I was saying.

"...space without matter is something imaginary...." &#8212; Gottfried W. Leibniz, polymath, 1689

Agonaces of Susa said:
Mike Elphick said:
Even if it did not contain these things, a perfect vacuum still isn't nothingness.

Nothingness cannot exist.

How silly! You're using a double negative with translates as "Things can exist"!

Agonaces of Susa said:
Mike Elphick said:
The Big Bang theory has it that there was an explosion of space into nothingness, or more correctly an expansion of spacetime.

The Big Bang is not a theory, it's a falsified 20th century pseudoscientific hypothesis.

I knew before I wrote that, it would get up your nose! Hypothesis, fair enough, but that space and the universe are expanding is fairly well established. As far as I understand it, space can only expand into nothingness.

Agonaces of Susa said:
Nothingness cannot exist.

In other words, things can exist!

Agonaces of Susa said:
Spacetime does not exist.

Space exists and time exists. There is a relationship between the two that you would likely not accept. There is plenty of evidence that the universe and space is expanding. What are they expanding into? &#8212; as far as I can gather it is nothingness! Of course neither of us can get our heads round that; it is a difficult subject!

Agonaces of Susa said:
Mike Elphick said:
Did you know, that even in a perfect vacuum, particles pop in and out of existence?

"There is no vacuum." -- Gottfried W. Leibniz, polymath, 1689

But I agree particles come into being and are destroyed.

My point it that a vacuum can only exist in space. Nothingness is not the same thing as space, outerspace or vacuum. Nothingness is nothingness. But what has all this got to do with the musings of Job?

"...space without matter is something imaginary...." -- Gottfried W. Leibniz, polymath, 1689

Agonaces of Susa said:
Mike Elphick said:
Reading the scriptures tells me that the 'rule of the sun' was that it disappeared out of a western portal of heaven (firmament) to make its way, via the north, back through an eastern portal:-

Reading the Scriptures tells me the opposite.

"And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed..." -- Joshua 10:13

"Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day." -- Joshua 10:13

"And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the LORD: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down in the dial of Ahaz." -- II Kings 20:11

"Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down." -- Isaiah 38:8

"And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord God, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:" -- Amos 8:9

"Therefore night shall be unto you, that ye shall not have a vision; and it shall be dark unto you, that ye shall not divine; and the sun shall go down over the prophets, and the day shall be dark over them. Then shall the seers be ashamed, and the diviners confounded: yea, they shall all cover their lips; for there is no answer of God." -- Micah 3:6-7

This just confirms that the writers of the day thought the Earth was a disc with the sun travelled across the face of the firmament (dome over the disc) and so could easily be stopped or moved. They did not know the Earth rotates such that at the equator its surface is travelling at 1000 miles per hour. Stopping the Earth would have had catastrophic effects thus confirming that these verses are derived from the Ancient Hebrew view of the cosmos, which is far removed from our present day knowledge of it.

Agonaces of Susa said:
Mike Elphick said:
Of course space exists, but Job would not be aware of the nature of space and therefore he couldn't say anything about it.

Outerspace does exist.

Job hadn't a clue about space or outerspace and therefore couldn't write about it.

Agonaces of Susa said:
Mike Elphick said:
Don't be silly! Job, like most people of his time, thought the Earth and its pillars hung over, or floated upon, the Great Deep.

"He [God] stretcheth out the north over the empty space, and hangeth the earth upon nothing." -- Job 26:7

Repeating the same verse, which I dealt with in my previous post, does not make it better fit our modern view of Earth's position in the cosmos. Why are creatonists so intent on making these ancient people conversant with modern science? Is it because you are forcing the scriptures to better fit some crazy idea that every word is the Word of God?

Agonaces of Susa said:
Mike Elphick said:
I clearly know rather more than you [about the biblical view of the cosmos].

We can all dream.

No dream, I have spent time studying it.

Did you look at the two links I gave you? Does the Bible teach that the earth is flat? and The Geographical Meaning of "Earth" and "Seas" in Genesis 1:10.
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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Hi Mike, let me preface this post by saying I agree with most of what you said in your last post regarding space and time.

However I will add the following comments:

Space exists and time exists.
Meinong's Jungle exists.

There is a relationship between the two that you would likely not accept.
That is correct.

There is plenty of evidence that the universe and space is expanding.
There is none. No one has ever observed the edge of the universe except Stephen Hawking with his magic wheelchair.

This just confirms that the writers of the day thought the Earth was a disc with the sun travelled across the face of the firmament (dome over the disc) and so could easily be stopped or moved.
Disc = sphere.

They did not know the Earth rotates such that at the equator its surface is travelling at 1000 miles per hour.
I disagree.

Stopping the Earth would have had catastrophic effects
That is correct.

"And it may be supposed to result in the greatest changes to the human beings who are the inhabitants of the world at the time. ... And animals, as we know, survive with difficulty great and serious changes of many different kinds when they come upon them at once. ... Hence there necessarily occurs a great destruction of them, which extends also to-the life of man; few survivors of the race are left ...." -- Plato, philosopher, The Statesmen, 360 B.C.

thus confirming that these verses are derived from the Ancient Hebrew view of the cosmos
Well if the Egyptians got their cosmology from the Hewbrews that would certainly contradict the mainstream version of history.

"Indeed, the land turns around as does a potter's wheel." -- Ipuwer, scribe, Papyrus II, date debated

"Harakhte [The Sun] ... he rises in the west...." -- James H. Breasted, egyptologist, 1906

"In the tomb of Senmut, the architect of Queen Hatshepsut, a panel on the ceiling shows the celestial sphere with 'a reversed orientation' or the southern sky. The end of the Middle Kingdom antedated the time of Queen Hatshepsut by several centuries. The astronomical ceiling presenting a reversed orientation must have been a venerated chart, made obsolete a number of centuries earlier. 'A characteristic feature of the Senmut ceiling is the astronomically objectionable orientation of the souther panel.' The center of this panel is occupied by the Orion-Sirius group, in which Orion appears west of Sirius instead of east. 'The orientating of the southern panel is such that a person in the tomb looking at it has to lift his head and face north, not south.' 'With the reversed orientation of the south panel, Orion, the most conspicuous constellation of the southern sky, appeared to be moving eastward, i.e., in the wrong direction.' [Pogo, A., 1930]" -- Immanuel Velikovsky, polymath, 1950

If the Greeks got their cosmology from the Hebrews that would certainly contradict the mainstream version of history.

"Thus the whole period is eleven thousand three hundred and forty years; in all of which time (they said) they had no king who was a god in human form, nor had there been any such either before or after those years among the rest of the kings of Egypt. Four times in this period (so they told me) the sun rose contrary to experience; twice he came up where he now goes down, and twice went down where he now comes up." -- Herodotus, historian, Book II, ~440-420 B.C.

"... here also everyone bows down before him who reversed the circuit of the sun." -- Sophocles, playwright, Fragment 738, 410 B.C.

"Then, it was then that Zeus changed the radiant paths of the stars, and the light of the sun, and the bright face of dawn; and the sun drove across the western back of the sky with hot flame from heaven's fires, while the rain-clouds went northward and Ammon's lands [Egypt] grew parched and faint, not knowing moisture, robbed of heaven's fairest showers of rain." --Euripides, playwright, Electra, 408 B.C.

"There did really happen, and will again happen, like many other events of which ancient tradition has preserved the record, the portent which is traditionally said to have occurred in the quarrel of Atreus and Thyestes. ... how the sun and the stars once rose in the west, and set in the east, and that the god reversed their motion, and gave them that which they now have as a testimony to the right of Atreus. " -- Plato, philosopher, The Statesman, 360 B.C.

"There is a time when God himself guides and helps to roll the world in its course; and there is a time, on the completion of a certain cycle, when he lets go, and the world being a living creature, and having originally received intelligence from its author and creator turns about and by an inherent necessity revolves in the opposite direction." -- Plato, philosopher, The Statesman, 360 B.C.

"The reversal which takes place from time to time of the motion of the universe. ... Of all changes of the heavenly motions, we may consider this to be the greatest and most complete. " -- Plato, philosopher, The Statesman, 360 B.C.

"The sun set in the East." -- Apollodoros, Scholium on the Iliad: Book II, ~143 B.C.

If the Romans got their cosmology from the Hebrews that would certainly contradict the mainstream version of history.

"... the day was retarded in contrariety to nature, and the sun delayed." -- Plutarch, historian, 1st century

"O all-enduring Phoebus, though thou didst shrink afar, and in mid-sky didst bury the darkened day, still thou didst set too late." -- Lucius A. Seneca, philosopher statesman, 1st century

"The inhabitants of this country [Egypt] say that they have it from their ancestors that the sun now sets where it formerly rose." -- Gaius J. Solinus, grammarian, 3rd century

"According to a different account, which found favour with the Latin poets, the sun reversed his course in the sky, not in order to demonstrate the right of Atreus to the crown, but on the contrary to mark his disgust and horror at the king for murdering his nephews and dishing up their mangled limbs to their father Thyestes at table." -- James G. Frazer, translator, 1920

If the Chinese got their cosmology from the Hebrews that would certainly contradict the mainstream version of history.

"In the lifetime of [Emperor] Yao the sun did not set for ten full days and the entire land was flooded." -- Johannes Hübner, evangelist, 1729

"... when the Duke of Lu-yang [Huai-nan-tse] was at war against Han, during the battle the sun went down. The Duke, swinging his spear, beckoned to the sun, whereupon the sun, for his sake, came back and passed through three solar mansions." -- Alfred Forke, philosopher, 1925

"The Chinese say that it is only since a new order of things has come about that the stars move from east to west." -- Hans S. Bellamy, author, 1936

"The signs of the Chinese zodiac have the strange peculiarity of proceeding in a retrograde direction, that is, against the course of the sun." -- Hans S. Bellamy, author, 1936

If the Inca and Mexicans got their cosmology from the Hebrews that would certainly contradict the mainstream version of history.

"The nations of Culhua, or Mexico, says Gomara, who wrote about the middle of the sixteenth century, believe according to their hieroglyphical paintings, that, previous to the sun which now enlightens them, four had already been successively extinguished. These four suns are as many ages, in which our species has been annihilated by inundations, by earthquakes, by a general conflagration, and by the effect of destroying tempests." -- Alexander Von Humboldt, naturalist, 1814

"The travelling toward the east [of the sun] and the disappearance in the east ... must be understood literally...." -- Eduard Seler, anthropologist, 1903

"It is said that in this province [Titicaca] the people of ancient times tell of being without light from the heavens for many days, and all of the local inhabitants were astonished, confused, and frightened to have total darkness for such a long time. Finally, the people of the Island of Titicaca saw the Sun come up one morning out of that crag with extraordinary radiance." -- Bernabé Cobo, historian, 1990

"According to the legend, the ancient peoples [of Lake Titicaca] had been without light for many days." -- Clive L. N. Ruggles, archaeoastronomer, 2005

If the Plains Indians got their cosmology from the Hewbrews that would certainly contradict the mainstream version of history.

"Could the [American] Indians on this continent know the connection between the sun appearing over the horizon, Eastern horizon, dropping down, again appearing, dropping down, and all the continent, this continent, bursting in flame? How could they know the connection? So they could not invent the stories. Something must have happened." -- Immanuel Velikovsky, polymath, 1966

which is far removed from our present day knowledge of it.
"Present day knowledge" is an oxymoron.
 
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Mike Elphick

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Hi Mike, let me preface this post by saying I agree with most of what you said in your last post regarding space and time.

However I will add the following comments:

Mike Elphick said:
Space exists and time exists.

Meinong's Jungle exists.

As human beings, we can only interpret the world in terms of our limited abilities. What is surprising is how well we can understand the world and make predictions based on that understanding. Within these limitations space and time do indeed exist.

Agonaces of Susa said:
Mike Elphick said:
There is a relationship between the two that you would likely not accept.

That is correct.

Agonaces of Susa said:
Mike Elphick said:
There is plenty of evidence that the universe and space is expanding.

There is none. No one has ever observed the edge of the universe except Stephen Hawking with his magic wheelchair.

Making fun of ideas and people is not a good way to present your arguments. You know perfectly well there is evidence for an expanding universe:-

It was during the 1920's that Edwin Hubble provided the first evidence that we live in an expanding Universe. Hubble discovered that there is a simple relationship between the distance to a remote galaxy and the redshift in the spectral lines from that galaxy. This redshift is know as the cosmological redshift. Hubble's observations showed that the greater the distance to a galaxy, the greater the redshift in its spectral lines. These measurements strongly indicated that galaxies appear to be moving away from us with speeds proportional to their distance. This observation is made in whatever direction you may look in the sky, giving the (false) impression that our solar system is at the centre of the Universe. The net effect of this motion is that as time goes on the galaxies are getting further and further apart. Astronomers describe this as an expanding universe.
An Expanding Universe

Agonaces of Susa said:
Mike Elphick said:
This just confirms that the writers of the day thought the Earth was a disc with the sun travelled across the face of the firmament (dome over the disc) and so could easily be stopped or moved.

Disc = sphere.

You're capable of doing better than that AoS!

Agonaces of Susa said:
Mike Elphick said:
They did not know the Earth rotates such that at the equator its surface is travelling at 1000 miles per hour.

I disagree.

How can you disagree with a fact? A rotating sphere has momentum, you can't suddenly stop the Earth rotating without it falling to bits.

Agonaces of Susa said:
Mike Elphick said:
Stopping the Earth would have had catastrophic effects

That is correct.

"And it may be supposed to result in the greatest changes to the human beings who are the inhabitants of the world at the time. ... And animals, as we know, survive with difficulty great and serious changes of many different kinds when they come upon them at once. ... Hence there necessarily occurs a great destruction of them, which extends also to-the life of man; few survivors of the race are left ...." -- Plato, philosopher, The Statesmen, 360 B.C.

The discussion is about the reversal of time, which is assumed to depend on a theoretical reversal of the motion of the universe.

"The life of all animals first came to a standstill, and the mortal nature ceased to be or look older, and was then reversed and grew young and delicate; the white locks of the aged darkened again, and the cheeks the bearded man became smooth, and recovered their former bloom; the bodies of youths in their prime grew softer and smaller, continually by day and night returning and becoming assimilated to the nature of a newly-born child in mind as well as body; in the succeeding stage they wasted away and wholly disappeared. And the bodies of those who died by violence at that time quickly passed through the like changes, and in a few days were no more seen. " — Plato, philosopher, The Statesmen, 360 B.C.​

Of course, the motion of the universe does not reverse.

Agonaces of Susa said:
Mike Elphick said:
thus confirming that these verses are derived from the Ancient Hebrew view of the cosmos

Well if the Egyptians got their cosmology from the Hewbrews that would certainly contradict the mainstream version of history.
<list of mostly irrelevant, out of context, quotes>

Historians tend to exaggerate the capabilities of ancient Egyptians, when, in fact, they were a practical culture. The development of cosmology in ancient Egypt followed practical lines. Early man's impressions of the night sky formulated into various myths which then later became the core of Egyptian religion. Since its principal deities were heavenly bodies, a great deal of effort was made by the priesthood to calculate and predict the time and place of their god's appearances. These skills led to the division of the day and night into twelve sections each, the development of a lunar calendar and the development of a solar calendar of 12 30-day months with a special 5-day unit to bring the total to 365 days.

Cosmology in Mesopotamia was much more sophisticated. Babylonians believed in a six-level universe with two heavens above the sky, the heaven of the stars, the earth, the underground of the Apsu, and the underworld of the dead. The Earth was created by the god Marduk as a raft floating on the Apsu. The gods were divided into two pantheons, one occupying the heavens and the other in the underworld.

Babylonian astronomy is noted for their detailed, and continuous, records of astronomical phenomenon such as eclipses, positions of the planets and rise and setting of the Moon. These records date back to 800 B.C. and are the oldest scientific documents in existence. The purpose of this activity was clearly astrological with the aim of forecasting the fortunes of the country as well as of the king. In addition to records, Babylonian astronomers also developed several arithmetic tools to aid in the prediction of eclipses and planetary motion. However, while their record keeping was a novel technology for the time, and their system of stellar names and measurement system was passed onto later civilizations, the Babylonians never developed a cosmological model in which to interpret their observations. Greek astronomers will achieve this goal using the Babylonian data.

History of Cosmology


Agonaces of Susa said:
[If the Greeks got their cosmology from the Hebrews that would certainly contradict the mainstream version of history.

<list of mostly irrelevant, out of context, quotes>

The third stage, what makes up the core of modern cosmology, grew out of ancient Greek, later adopted by the Church. The underlying theme in Greek science is the use of observation and experimentation to search for simple, universal laws. We call this the time of Geometric Cosmology.

The struggle to formulation a Geometric Cosmology led to the development of the biggest philosophical achievement of humankind, the philosophy of science. Indirectly, through an examination of our myths and creation stories, we developed the ideas and techniques that later would become the core ideas to this thing we call science.

Central to Greek cosmology is the belief that the underlying order of the Universe can be expressed in mathematical form lies at the heart of science and is rarely questioned. But is mathematics a human invention or does it have an independent existence?

History of Cosmology

Agonaces of Susa said:
[If the Romans got their cosmology from the Hebrews that would certainly contradict the mainstream version of history.

<list of mostly irrelevant, out of context, quotes>

If the Chinese got their cosmology from the Hebrews that would certainly contradict the mainstream version of history.

<list of mostly irrelevant, out of context, quotes>

If the Inca and Mexicans got their cosmology from the Hebrews that would certainly contradict the mainstream version of history.

<list of mostly irrelevant, out of context, quotes>

Why can't you come up with something original that you put together yourself instead of bombarding us with extracts of other people's work?

Agonaces of Susa said:
Mike Elphick said:
which [ancient Hebrew view of the cosmos] is far removed from our present day knowledge of it.

"Present day knowledge" is an oxymoron.

How? And why is it so important for creationists to assign great scientific knowledge (something they clearly did not have) to the writers of the Bible?
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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You know perfectly well there is evidence for an expanding universe:-

It was during the 1920's that Edwin Hubble provided the first evidence that we live in an expanding Universe. Hubble discovered that there is a simple relationship between the distance to a remote galaxy and the redshift in the spectral lines from that galaxy. This redshift is know as the cosmological redshift. Hubble's observations showed that the greater the distance to a galaxy, the greater the redshift in its spectral lines. These measurements strongly indicated that galaxies appear to be moving away from us with speeds proportional to their distance. This observation is made in whatever direction you may look in the sky, giving the (false) impression that our solar system is at the centre of the Universe. The net effect of this motion is that as time goes on the galaxies are getting further and further apart. Astronomers describe this as an expanding universe.
An Expanding Universe
Too bad Edwin Hubble himself said otherwise.

"... if redshifts are not primarily velocity-shifts, the picture is simple and plausible. There is no evidence of expansion and no restriction of time-scale, no trace of spatial curvature, and no limitation of spatial dimensions." -- Edwin P. Hubble, astronomer, 1937

"The assumption that red shifts are not velocity shifts but represent some hitherto unknown principle operating in space between the nebulae leads to a very simple, consistent picture of a universe so vast that the observable region must be regarded as an insignificant sample." -- Edwin P. Hubble, astronomer, 1942

"... it seems likely that redshift may not be due to an expanding Universe, and much of the speculations on the structure of the universe may require re-examination." -- Edwin P. Hubble, astronomer, 1947

"Edwin Hubble never swallowed the big bang hypothesis, even though his redshift discovery started the whole thing. According to his protege Allan Sandage, Hubble wasn't interested in theory, or in 'worlds that could be.' He took 'what the universe gives you.' Hubble found the big bang pointless and never accepted that his discovery was proof of an expanding universe. Ever the scientist, he said he was measuring redshifts. There are explanations for redshifts other than the big bang." -- Dick Teresi, author, Lost Discoveries: The Ancient Roots of Modern Science -- from the Babylonians to the Maya, 2002

How can you disagree with a fact?
What you call a fact, I call a fairy tale.

A rotating sphere has momentum, you can't suddenly stop the Earth rotating without it falling to bits.
LOL.

Observe:

YouTube - SinkScience #07 - Ball Magnet Reverses Rotation

Of course, the motion of the universe does not reverse.
You are in denial of basic scientific observation and the historical record.

Historians tend to exaggerate the capabilities of ancient Egyptians, when, in fact, they were a practical culture. The development of cosmology in ancient Egypt followed practical lines. Early man's impressions of the night sky formulated into various myths which then later became the core of Egyptian religion. Since its principal deities were heavenly bodies, a great deal of effort was made by the priesthood to calculate and predict the time and place of their god's appearances. These skills led to the division of the day and night into twelve sections each, the development of a lunar calendar and the development of a solar calendar of 12 30-day months with a special 5-day unit to bring the total to 365 days.
Isaac Newton said otherwise.

"... to what Agent did the Ancients attribute the gravity of their atoms and what did they mean by calling God an harmony and comparing him & matter (the corporeal part of the Universe) to the God Pan and his Pipe?" -- Isaac Newton, mathematician, 169-

"... the Egyptians ... concealed mysteries that were above the common herd under the veil of religious rites and hieroglyphic symbols." -- Isaac Newton, mathematician, 1694

"Modesty teaches us to speak of the ancients with respect, especially when we are not very familiar with their works. Newton, who knew them practically by heart, had the greatest respect for them, and considered them to be men of genius and superior intelligence who had carried their discoveries in every field much further than we today suspect, judging from what remains of their writings. More ancient writings have been lost than have been preserved, and perhaps our new discoveries are of less value than those that we have lost." -- Francis Atterbury, Bishop of Rochester, 18th century

"This question of measurement is only one example of Newton's faith in the prisca sapientia of Ancient Egypt. He was also convinced that atomic theory, heliocentricity and gravitation had been known there [See McGuire and Rattansi (1966, p. 110)]." -- Martin Bernal, historian, 1987

Cosmology in Mesopotamia was much more sophisticated. Babylonians believed in a six-level universe with two heavens above the sky, the heaven of the stars, the earth, the underground of the Apsu, and the underworld of the dead. The Earth was created by the god Marduk as a raft floating on the Apsu. The gods were divided into two pantheons, one occupying the heavens and the other in the underworld.

Babylonian astronomy is noted for their detailed, and continuous, records of astronomical phenomenon such as eclipses, positions of the planets and rise and setting of the Moon. These records date back to 800 B.C. and are the oldest scientific documents in existence. The purpose of this activity was clearly astrological with the aim of forecasting the fortunes of the country as well as of the king. In addition to records, Babylonian astronomers also developed several arithmetic tools to aid in the prediction of eclipses and planetary motion. However, while their record keeping was a novel technology for the time, and their system of stellar names and measurement system was passed onto later civilizations, the Babylonians never developed a cosmological model in which to interpret their observations. Greek astronomers will achieve this goal using the Babylonian data.
"Now the Egyptians say that also after these events a great number of colonies were spread from Egypt over all the inhabited world. To Babylon, for instance, colonists were led by Belus, who was held to be the son of Poseidon and Libya; and after establishing himself on the Euphrates river he appointed priests, called Chaldaeans by the Babylonians, who were exempt from taxation and free from every kind of service to the state, as are the priests of Egypt; and they also make observations of the stars, following the example of the Egyptian priests, physicists, and astrologers. They say also that those who set forth with Danaus, likewise from Egypt, settled what is practically the oldest city in Greece, Argos, and that the nation of the Colchi in Pontus and that of the Jews, which lies between Arabia and Syria, were founded as colonies by certain emigrants from their country; and this is the reason why it is a long-established institution among these two peoples to circumcise their male children, the custom having been brought over from Egypt. Even the Athenians, they say, are colonists from Saïs in Egypt, and they undertake to offer proofs of such a relationship .... ... to us it seems not inappropriate to speak briefly of the Chaldaeans of Babylon and of their antiquity, that we may omit nothing which is worthy of record. Now the Chaldaeans, belonging as they do to the most ancient inhabitants of Babylonia, have about the same position among the divisions of the state as that occupied by the priests of Egypt; for being assigned to the service of the gods they spend their entire life in study, their greatest renown being in the field of astrology." -- Diodurus Siculus, historian, The Library of History, Book I, 1st century B.C.

"And since they [Chaldeans] have observed the stars over a long period of time and have noted both the movements and the influences of each of them with greater precision than any other men, they foretell to mankind many things that will take place in the future. But above all importance, they say, is the study of the influence of the five stars known as planets, which they call 'Interpreters' when speaking of them as a group, but if referring to them singly, the one named Cronus [Saturn] by the Greeks, which is the most conspicuous and presages more events and such as are of greater importance than the others, they call the star of Helius, whereas the other four they designate as the stars of Ares [Mars], Aphrodite [Venus], Hermes [Mercury], and Zeus [Jupiter], as do our astrologers." -- Diodorus Siculus, historian, Library of History, Book II, 1st century B.C.

"It is not easy to understand the idea which was the basis for the identification of the Babylonian gods with the planets." -- Peter Jensen, author, 1890

"The great temple [of Babylon] was the symbolization of Babylonian mythology. The seven platforms were dedicated to the seven planets." -- John C. Ridpath, historian, History of the World, 1894

"The Babylonians were planet worshippers." -- Drusilla D. Houston, historian, Wonderful Ethiopians of the Ancient Cu[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]e Empire, Chapter XIII: The Civilization of Babylonia, 1926

"There is said to be distinct evidence that they [Babylonians] observed the four satellites of Jupiter, and strong reason to believe that they were acquainted likewise with the seven satellites of Saturn. ... strange as it may seem to us ... the Babylonians possessed optical instruments of the nature of telescopes, since it is impossible, even in the clear and vapor-less sky of Chaldaea, to discern the faint moons of that distant planet [Saturn] without lenses. A lens, it must be remembered, with a fair magnifying power, has been discovered amongst the Mesopotamian ruins." -- George Rawlinson, historian, The Seven Great Monarchies of the Eastern World, Volume 4: Babylon, 1862-67

"The Chaldeans must have understood the manufacture of the telescope, for [Austen H.] Layard reported the discovery of a lens of power in the ruins of Babylon. Nero the emperor of Rome had optical glasses from the east." -- Drusilla D. Houston, historian, Wonderful Ethiopians of the Ancient Cu[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]e Empire, Chapter XIII: The Civilization of Babylonia, 1926

The third stage, what makes up the core of modern cosmology, grew out of ancient Greek, later adopted by the Church. The underlying theme in Greek science is the use of observation and experimentation to search for simple, universal laws. We call this the time of Geometric Cosmology.

The struggle to formulation a Geometric Cosmology led to the development of the biggest philosophical achievement of humankind, the philosophy of science. Indirectly, through an examination of our myths and creation stories, we developed the ideas and techniques that later would become the core ideas to this thing we call science.

Central to Greek cosmology is the belief that the underlying order of the Universe can be expressed in mathematical form lies at the heart of science and is rarely questioned. But is mathematics a human invention or does it have an independent existence?
"For many of the ancient customs of the Egyptians that are most to be admired were not only allowed by the natural inhabitants, but were greatly admired by the Grecians, so that every learned man earnestly coveted to travel into Egypt to learn the knowledge of their laws and customs, as things of great weight and moment: and though the country antiently forbade all reception of strangers, (for the reasons before alleged), yet some of the antients, as Orpheus and Homer, and many of later times, as Pythagoras the Samian, and Solon the lawgiver, ventured to travel hither. And therefore the Egyptians affirm that letters, astronomy, geometry, and many other arts were first found out by them...." -- Diodorus Siculus, historian, 1st century B.C.

"Having now given an account of these things, it remains we should declare how many wise and learned men among the Grecians journeyed into Egypt in ancient times, to understand the laws and sciences of the country. For the Egyptian priests, out of their sacred records relate, that Orpheus, Musaeus, Melampodes, Daedalus, Homer the poet, Lycurgus the Spartan, Solon the Athenian, Plato the philosopher, Pythagoras the Samian, Eudoxus the mathematician, Democritus the Abderite, and Oenopides the Chian, all came to them in Egypt, and they show certain marks and signs of all these being there. Of some, by their pictures; and of others, by the names of places, or pieces of work that have been called after their names." -- Diodorus Siculus, historian, 1st century B.C.

"Witness to this also are the wisest of the Greeks: Solon, Thales, Plato, Eudoxus, Pythagoras, who came to Egypt and consorted with the priests; and in this number some would include Lycurgus also. Eudoxus, they say, received instruction from Chonuphis of Memphis, Solon from Sonchis of Sais, and Pythagoras from Oenuphis of Heliopolis." -- Plutarch, historian, Ethika, 1st century

"As to his knowledge, it is said that he [Pythagoras] learned the mathematical sciences from the Egyptians, Chaldeans and Phoenicians; for of' old the Egyptians excelled, in geometry, the Phoenicians in numbers and proportions, and the Chaldeans of astronomical theorems, divine rites, and worship of the Gods; other secrets concerning the course of life he received and learned from the Magi." -- Porphyry, philosopher, 3rd century

"It was from his stay amongst these foreigners [Egyptians and Babylonians] that Pythagoras acquired the greater part of his wisdom." -- Porphyry, philosopher, 3rd century

Why can't you come up with something original that you put together yourself instead of bombarding us with extracts of other people's work?
Truth and history have nothing to do with originality.

Why can't you come up with a logical or scientific argument?
 
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Agonaces of Susa

Evolution is not science: legalize creationism.
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I'm loving all these quotes from pre-1950 back to the 1600s and even some quotes from 4th century BC philosophers. Yep, you really have your finger on the pulse of modern science don't you, Agonaces!
Modern pseudoscience and other fairy tale myths are a joke compared to actual history and ancient science.
 
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Mike Elphick

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Mike Elphick said:
You know perfectly well there is evidence for an expanding universe:-

Expanding Universe

Too bad Edwin Hubble himself said otherwise.

<list of Hubble quotes>

Previously you said there was no evidence for an expanding universe!! I presented evidence showing that Hubble's observations showed that the greater the distance to a galaxy, the greater the redshift in its spectral lines. His particular and unusual interpretation of the evidence does not make the evidence go away. There is evidence for an expanding universe. Period.

Agonaces of Susa said:
Mike Elphick said:
How can you disagree with a fact?

What you call a fact, I call a fairy tale.

So the FACT for redshift and the EVIDENCE that relates it to the distance of galaxies is a fairy tale?

Agonaces of Susa said:
Mike Elphick said:
A rotating sphere has momentum, you can't suddenly stop the Earth rotating without it falling to bits.
LOL.

Observe:

<YouTube video - SinkScience #07 - Ball Magnet Reverses Rotation>

laughing22.gif


Amazing kitchen sink 'science'! Yes the ball moves because it is driven with ENERGY from a stream of water. And why does it rotate? It rotates because the magnets are pulling the ball against the sides of the bowl — simple friction makes the ball roll (rotate) along the sides of the bowl in exactly the same way as a ball rolls down an inclined surface. In your example, the momentum of rotation only alters when the applied energy (speed of water jet) changes. Dear me :doh:.

Agonaces of Susa said:
Mike Elphick said:
Of course, the motion of the universe does not reverse.

You are in denial of basic scientific observation and the historical record.

I'll tell you one thing AoS, you'll never be able to blind someone with science
laughing24.gif
.

Agonaces of Susa said:
Mike Elphick said:
Historians tend to exaggerate the capabilities of ancient Egyptians, when, in fact, they were a practical culture....

Isaac Newton said otherwise.

<list of quotes>

Now, AoS, what are we discussing? Your quotes from and about Newton supply no evidence that the ancient Hebrews knew the Earth was a sphere.

Agonaces of Susa said:
Mike Elphick said:
Cosmology in Mesopotamia was much more sophisticated Babylonians believed in a six-level universe...

<list of obscure, old and ancient quotes (1st Century BC to 1926) about Babylonia and the Chaldaeans>

None of your quotes establishes that the ancient Hebrews considered the Earth was a sphere, which is what the thread is about.

Chaldean mythology is the collective name given to Sumerian, Assyrian and Babylonian mythologies, although Chaldea did not comprehend the whole territory inhabited by those peoples Chaldean mythology - Definition.​

The Heavenly Spheres
In this worldview [the Chaldean order of the planets], the Cosmos was seen as a succession of smaller and smaller spheres, with the Earth at the center, and Heaven (known as the Primum Mobile, or the Prime Mover) at the outermost extreme. This is why, incidentally, Dante locates Hell in the middle of the Earth, because the center of the Earth is as far as one can get from the regions where God dwells. You will note that as we progress downward through the spheres, the spheres get more and more changeable and therefore imperfect relative to God, as demonstrated by the increasing speeds of the relevant celestial bodies. The spheres, moved by the Primum Mobile, move along with their particular planets, and as they rotate, they make celestial music. Each sphere corresponds to a different musical tone, so the seven tones from C to B are each assigned to a planet. Because as humans we are so far removed from the exalted heights of the spheres, we cannot hear this music.

Following the spheres inward, the next sphere after Heaven was the sphere of the fixed stars. Heaven, of course, does not move at all, because it is eternal. The fixed stars do move, though very very slowly, on average 1° every 70 years or so. The next sphere is that of Saturn, which is the slowest planet, followed by Jupiter, Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury, and finally the Moon. To learn about the speed of each planet, please visit the planetary speed page. Our sphere, the one where mortals dwell, is known as the sublunary sphere, because it is beneath that of the Moon. Because the Moon is highly changeable, and moves so quickly relative to the other planets, our own sphere is highly imperfect, with the philosophical implication that only eternity is perfect Geocentric Theory | In Ancient Times: Geocentric Model | Chaldean Order.​

Agonaces of Susa said:
Mike Elphick said:
The third stage, what makes up the core of modern cosmology...

<more quotes from the 1st to 3rd centuries that have no bearing on the Hebrew belief in a flat Earth>

Agonaces of Susa said:
Mike Elphick said:
Why can't you come up with something original that you put together yourself instead of bombarding us with extracts of other people's work?

Truth and history have nothing to do with originality.

Padding your post out with irrelevant quotes makes it looks like you can't think for yourself.

Agonaces of Susa said:
Why can't you come up with a logical or scientific argument?

I do, just take a look at my explanation for your lack of understanding about the rotating steel ball ;).
 
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