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Does the bible ever declare that being black is a curse from God??

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by peebly63, Apr 18, 2013.

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  1. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    Changing topics, start a new thread. I'll be glad to join you and discuss.

    Paul never turned anyone black to keep white delightsome folk from being enticed.

    The LDS deity did according to LDS scripture (2 Nephi 5:21)
     
  2. williamgramsmith

    williamgramsmith Active Member

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    That's why when people study history they should actually study history instead of inserting their own contexts onto history.

    Back in those days most "American Blacks" were Blacks Africans, not "Black Indians" from India, Central/South America, Islands etc. The context of the statement was in referring to the "blacks they knew".

    Do you really think cherry picking some quotes from history that use "black" and doesn't mention everything else actually tells you the FULL FACTS on the issue, what Church actual policy and practice was?

    Heaven help you.... :doh:
     
  3. williamgramsmith

    williamgramsmith Active Member

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    And if you READ OD 2, it specifically SAY's LINEAGE..... or color.

    LDS don't deny that color "had to do" with the ban, but it WAS NOT the basis for the ban, it was a "mark" that helped to identify those who might be under the ban, not an absolute. The ban was in fact determined ENTIRELY by Genealogy and Patriarchal Blessing.

    So it is YOU who are nit picking, quote mining things that support your view while ignoring the full facts and church policy and practice on the issue. For example, you ignore the MANY quotes from LDS history which directly state the ban was on a Lineage, PERIOD.

    Do you really think a persons "evil countenance" and spirit is "enticing"?

    Further, LDS don't deny that the seed of Laman and Lemual mixed with the more "primatives" of the area and they were indeed a "darker" people. Archeology has already proven that there were darker and lighter skinned peoples in the same areas.

    Further, you forget/IGNORE the Book of Mormon also say that these same "dark" people became WHITE..... but they were still identified as Lamanites. So much for your bigoted theory that the BOM is racist.

    You are no different than liberals seeing "racism" in things that are not racism.

    That's because they actually WERE racists.... Segregation, slavery support, on and on.... LDS had ZERO of that in our history. We were Abolitionists, we never segregated, on and on. All we did was follow a policy as directed by the Lord, period.

    Because we followed God, not the whims of men, and not the racist actions of men. We have nothing to apologize for.... and if you think so, then so does Christ and GOD ALMIGHTY HIMSELF for Biblicals racism, segregation, etc. (by your standard being applied to us).
     
  4. peebly63

    peebly63 Well-Known Member

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    your president stated he did not know why people of colour have never held the priesthood before 1978...
    your president said he did not know, so had they heard from God or not, if yes you are saying God made you colour prejudice, if it wasn't from God, you decided yourselves to be colour prejudice...it's as simple as that..
     
  5. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    The book of Mormon says that "Dark" people became white????!!!----So far, the only dark people I know of who "became white" is Michael Jackson!! So just how did they accomplish this?? I mean, in light of the bible saying "Can an Ethipian change the color of his skin?" Was it just their skin that turned white, or did they have blond hair and blue eyes, also?? And so, since they had become "White", they were now acceptable??
    I'm just curious, as I've never heard of blacks becoming white--maybe skin bleached a little lighter, but become white??
     
  6. fatboys

    fatboys Senior Veteran

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    That is funny. Thanks for the laugh. Lets say God did give a people a darker skin because of their wickedness so that they would not mingle with those of the righteous. Because of their wickedness, not only were their skins turned dark but by their choice their inner countenance had turned dark as well. Those that had been separated and had repented from their sins and walked the talk. They not only were changed to white, but their inner soul had changed white was well. Now I don't know if their skins were black, I would not think they were, but they also mingled with the inhabitants that all ready lived their who were dark to begin with. I am not sure why this is such a stumbling block and why you point out that it is racist. It is like I am driving the kids on my bus. If I make a remark about something that has nothing to do with race, they chime up that I am racist. I scratch my head, trying to figure out what it was I was suppose to have said. They explain it to me, and I said that is not what I meant. Does not matter. I am a racist. Or if I chew out a kid who is Latino, and he is causing problems. Because I single him out I am a racist. Well I don't single him out. I am a multi race chewing outer person. But if they have color and I chew them out, I am a racist. Thank Heaven for video cameras on buses.

    In short we can not judge people at that time as if they lived today. If we do then we start down a slippery slope with nothing to hang onto.
     
  7. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    2 Nephi 5:21 does say their SKIN was turned black. The countenance issue is not discussed in the text.

    And why the words "Lets say" ... this is not hypothetical, it is MORMON Scripture.


    Try again
     
  8. RevelationTestament

    RevelationTestament Our God is a consuming fire.

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    You have poor understanding of scripture don't you?
    Job 30:28 I went mourning without the sun: I stood up, and I cried in the congregation.
    Job 30:29 I am a brother to dragons, and a companion to owls.
    Job 30:30 My skin is black upon me, and my bones are burned with heat.

    I guess the Lord turned Job black?
     
  9. skylark1

    skylark1 In awesome wonder

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    I think that it was Satan, not the Lord.

    Job
    7 So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord, and struck Job with painful boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head.​

    Job was covered from his head to his feet with boils. Boils can appear very dark, and they can become gangrenous. If you doubt this, then search google images for gangrene, MRSA, boils, or even bubonic plague. However, it is not a pretty sight. In many cases, the skin does look black.
     
  10. RevelationTestament

    RevelationTestament Our God is a consuming fire.

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    What Job was saying is that he felt rejected and forsaken - he felt impure. He felt God had rejected Him.
    He was not speaking of the literal color of his skin.
    He was talking about how everyone rejected him as impure, etc.

    I know drstevej knows this, but he doesn't point it out. Mormon 5:15 Later it says the white delightsome people would become dark, filthy and loathesome even beyond that of the Lamanites because of unbelief and idolatry.
    Again, not a reference to skin color, but of purity.
    It is talking about purity, and not skin color.

    See 2 Nephi 30:5 And the gospel of Jesus Christ shall be declared among them; wherefore, they shall be restored unto the knowledge of their fathers, and also to the knowledge of Jesus Christ, which was had among their fathers.
    6 And then shall they rejoice; for they shall know that it is a blessing unto them from the hand of God; and their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a pure and a delightsome people.

    The Bible actually has the exact same themes.
    Job 30:28 I went mourning without the sun: I stood up, and I cried in the congregation.
    Job 30:29 I am a brother to dragons, and a companion to owls.
    Job 30:30 My skin is black upon me, and my bones are burned with heat.
    He is saying God has loathed him, made Him sad, cursed him, and turned him black to be a hiss and a byword.

    The virgin building of the temple.
    Song 1:1 The song of songs, which is Solomon's.
    Song 1:2 Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth: for thy love is better than wine.
    Song 1:3 Because of the savour of thy good ointments thy name is as ointment poured forth, therefore do the virgins love thee.
    Song 1:4 Draw me, we will run after thee: the king hath brought me into his chambers: we will be glad and rejoice in thee, we will remember thy love more than wine: the upright love thee.
    Song 1:5 I am black, but comely, O ye daughters of Jerusalem, as the tents of Kedar, as the curtains of Solomon.
    Song 1:6 Look not upon me, because I am black, because the sun hath looked upon me: my mother's children were angry with me; they made me the keeper of the vineyards; but mine own vineyard have I not kept.

    The woman or church is black with sin but is still loved.

    Is reference to being white racist? Is this skin color?
    Dan 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
    Lam 4:6 For the punishment of the iniquity of the daughter of my people is greater than the punishment of the sin of Sodom, that was overthrown as in a moment, and no hands stayed on her.
    Lam 4:7 Her Nazarites were purer than snow, they were whiter than milk, they were more ruddy in body than rubies, their polishing was of sapphire:
    Lam 4:8 Their[daughter] visage is blacker than a coal; they are not known in the streets: their skin cleaveth to their bones; it is withered, it is become like a stick.

    Jer 8:19 Behold the voice of the cry of the daughter of my people because of them that dwell in a far country: Is not יהוה in Zion? is not her king in her? Why have they provoked me to anger with their graven images, and with strange vanities?
    Jer 8:20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.
    Jer 8:21 For the hurt of the daughter of my people am I hurt; I am black; astonishment hath taken hold on me.

    Is this talking about skin color, despair or sin? The church is black compared to the righteousness of the sun. Malachi 4:2

    drstevej has tried to teach that the BOM is racist. If so, the Bible is.

    I do not apologize to people for failing to properly exegete or understand scripture.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2013
  11. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    Mormon President and Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, "Doctrines of Salvation", pp. 61.

    Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, pg. 290-291.
     
  12. RevelationTestament

    RevelationTestament Our God is a consuming fire.

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    From RevelationTestament Vol 1. Personal notes:
    I personally believe God's people includes people of color:
    Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt[Africa], and from Pathros, and from Cush[Ethiopian area], and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

    Matt 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

    God is not prejudiced based on skin color at all.
    2 Nephi 26:33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.
     
  13. skylark1

    skylark1 In awesome wonder

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    The Hebrew word, shachar (Strong's H7835), that is translated as black in Job 30:30, appears once in the Old Testament. It is not the same word that is used in Job 30:28, qadar (Strong's H6937), that is translated as mourning.
    shacher
    1) to be black

    a) (Qal) to be black (of skin)

    KJV usage: black 1



    qadar

    1) to mourn, be dark

    a) (Qal) to be dark

    b) (Hiphil)

    1) to darken

    2) to cause to mourn

    c) (Hithpael) to grow dark


    usage in the KJV: mourn 6, black 4, dark 4, blackish 1, darkened 1, heavily 1 ​





    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
    My skin is black upon me,.... Either through deep melancholy, as may be observed in persons of such a disposition, through grief and trouble; or rather through the force of his disease, the burning ulcers and black scabs with which he was covered, as the Jews were through famine, in their captivity, Lamentations 4:8; ​

    Keil and Delitzsch Biblical Commentary on the Old Testament
    Now for the first time he speaks of his disfigurement by leprosy in particular: my skin (עורי, masc., as it is also used in Job 19:26, only apparently as fem.) is become black (nigruit) from me, i.e., being become black, has peeled from me, and my bones (עצמי, construed as fem. ​


    Barnes' Notes on the Bible
    My skin is black upon me; - see Job 30:28. It had become black by the force of the disease.

    My bones are burnt with heat - The bones, in the Scriptures, are often represented as the seat of pain. The disease of Job seems to have pervaded the whole body. If it was the elephantiasis (see the notes at Job 2:7-8), these effects would be naturally produced. ​


    I also though the following may be of interest:
    The McClintock and Strong Encyclopedia records that from antiquity Job's disease was commonly believed to have been "elephantiasis or black leprosy," and that a very early Greek version names this disease in the text of Job 2:7 as Job's ailment. However, McClintock and Strong also cautions that it may not be possible from the Bible text to confidently affirm from what particular disease Job suffered. After all, contemporary doctors do not customarily diagnose diseases, for instance, over the phone, and Job is removed from the possibility of examination by over 2,500 years. Yet, the Barnes' Commentary likewise presents the likelihood of Job's disease being elephantiasis or black leprosy that was common in Egypt. The description of the symptoms and Job's recourse to attempt some relief lead commentators to suspect Job's disease was black leprosy (to distinguish it from white leprosy). In addition, the definitions of the original language words in Job that are pertinent to the disease describe a burning ulceration that enveloped all of Job's skin. Black leprosy is marked by eruptions in the skin that are first red and later turn black. Especially with the limbs, the skin swells and becomes crusty and irregular, resembling the hide of an elephant, hence the name, elephantiasis. The Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary agrees that Job's illness appears to be black leprosy or elephantiasis, and it also concurs with other reference works that the original language word for "boils" in Job 2:7 is not plural. "Rather, as it is singular in the Hebrew, a burning sore, Job was covered with one universal inflammation." The Keil & Delitzsch Commentary also ascribes elephantiasis to Job, describes the disease and remarks of an Egyptian king who died of the disease. Wycliffe summarizes Job's disease:

    Modern medical opinion is not unanimous in its diagnosis of Job's disease, but according to the prognosis in Job's day, it was apparently hopeless. The horrible symptoms included inflamed eruptions accompanied by intense itching (Job 2:7-8), maggots in ulcers (7:5), erosion of the bones (30:17), blackening and falling off of skin (30:30), and terrifying nightmares (7:14), though some of these may possibly be attributed to the prolonged exposure that followed the onset of the disease. Job's whole body, it seems, was rapidly smitten with the loathsome, painful symptoms.​
     
  14. RevelationTestament

    RevelationTestament Our God is a consuming fire.

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    Or they are all wrong, it is a spiritual reference like the other references in the Bible I showed regarding being white or black.
     
  15. skylark1

    skylark1 In awesome wonder

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    I suppose that if you wish to merely dismiss them, close your mind to other views, and insist that your interpretation is the only possible correct one, then that is your perogative.

    I would not be so quick to dismiss the idea that one who is suffering from boils and sores over his entire body can have black skin. It happens in our day. I am sure that it could have happened in Job's day.
     
  16. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    She provided anexcellent refutation from very credible sources and you simply yawned.

    RT, do you know Hebrew?
     
  17. RevelationTestament

    RevelationTestament Our God is a consuming fire.

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    My point is that there are other references to blackness, and being black in the Bible that can have nothing to do with an alleged disease. Further being white has nothing to do with skin color, but purity. The BOM is very plain really about it, and yet drstevej insists it is literally about skin color and racism. It is simply a totally egregious interpretation esp in light of the fact that the Bible has the exact same kind of references to whiteness being purity, and black being sin or impurity, and the fact that in the BOM the "color" changes back to pure and delightsome. I'm sure there will be no change in skin color.

    Lastly, to read Job so literally, doesn't make much sense in light of all the other obvious symbolism that is used.
    Job 30:27 My bowels boiled, and rested not: the days of affliction prevented me.
    Job 30:28 I went mourning without the sun: I stood up, and I cried in the congregation.
    Job 30:29 I am a brother to dragons, and a companion to owls.
    Job 30:30 My skin is black upon me, and my bones are burned with heat.
    Job 30:31 My harp also is turned to mourning, and my organ into the voice of them that weep.
    Job is like the Song of Solomon ... full of symbolism.
    I stand by my interpretation because he shows he is rejected of men, and is telling how this affects him:
    Job 30:8 They were children of fools, yea, children of base men: they were viler than the earth.
    Job 30:9 And now am I their song, yea, I am their byword.
    Job 30:10 They abhor me, they flee far from me, and spare not to spit in my face.
    Job 30:11 Because he hath loosed my cord, and afflicted me, they have also let loose the bridle before me.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2013
  18. williamgramsmith

    williamgramsmith Active Member

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    RevelationTestament......

    I pointed out "multiple" scriptures from the Bible which had the same exact themes to them as the Book of Mormon when it concerned "color" to drstevej and he just ignored them and only addressed "one" which was less symbolic and more literal seeming, completely ignoring the others.
     
  19. williamgramsmith

    williamgramsmith Active Member

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    I'm reposting my post from the other thread, especially for Skylarks benefit....

    "Skin" is the BOM's version of "spirit/countenance", also known as GARMENT, ROBE, etc.... Robes of righteousness, of darkness, etc.

    It is YOU who make the false accusation by perverting our scripture to say something it's not saying.

    Read what the BIBLE itself say's, identifying skins, garments, etc. in relation to righteousness, spirit, countenance, etc.

    Job 7:5
    5 My flesh is clothed with worms and clods of dust; my skin is broken, and become loathsome.

    Job 30:30
    30 My skin is black upon me, and my bones are burned with heat.

    Genesis 3:21
    21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

    Exodus 22:27
    27 For that is his covering only, it is his raiment for his skin: wherein shall he sleep? and it shall come to pass, when he crieth unto me, that I will hear; for I am gracious.

    Exodus 34:29
    29 ¶And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses’ hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.

    Exodus 34:30
    30 And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him.

    Exodus 34:35
    35 And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses’ face shone: and Moses put the veil upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.

    Jeremiah 13:
    22 ¶And if thou say in thine heart, Wherefore come these things upon me? For the greatness of thine iniquity are thy skirts discovered, and thy heels made bare.

    23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

    24 Therefore will I scatter them as the stubble that passeth away by the wind of the wilderness.

    25 This is thy lot, the portion of thy measures from me, saith the Lord; because thou hast forgotten me, and trusted in falsehood.

    26 Therefore will I discover thy skirts upon thy face, that thy shame may appear.

    Lamentations 4:
    7 Her Nazarites were purer than snow, they were whiter than milk, they were more ruddy in body than rubies, their polishing was of sapphire:

    8 Their visage is blacker than a coal; they are not known in the streets: their skin cleaveth to their bones; it is withered, it is become like a stick.


    -------

    Anything look familiar, especially the last, compared to the BOM? haa haa
     
  20. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    The fact is drstevej is right. I recall a poem in the Mormon magazine (either Improvement Era or Ensign; probably Ensign) "Our little Navajo sits and digs the earth...Could it be she looks as white as our own to me?" I don't recall the author.

    Book of Mormon
    1 Nephi 11:13 (Mary) ". . . she was exceedingly fair and white."
    1 Nephi 12:23 (Prophecy of Lamanites after Christ) ". . . became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations."
    1 Nephi 13:15 (Gentiles) ". . . they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people [Nephites] before they were slain."
    2 Nephi 5:21 ". . . a sore cursing . . . as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them."
    2 Nephi 30:6 (Prophecy to Lamanites) ". . . scales of darkness shall begin to fall . . . they shall be a white and delightsome people." (Changed to pure and delightsome in 1981) Jacob 3:5 (Lamanites cursed) ". . .whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins. . ."
    Jacob 3:8-9 ". . .their skins will be whiter than yours . . . revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins . . ."
    Alma 3:6 ". . . skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion. . ."
    Alma 3:8 (Cursed) ". . .that their seed might be distinguished from the seed of their brethren . . .that they might not mix . . ."
    Alma 3:9 ". . . whosoever did mingle his seed with that of the Lamanites did bring the same curse upon his seed."
    Alma 3:14 (Lamanites cursed) ". . . set a mark on them that they and their seed may be separated from thee and thy seed. . ."
    Alma 3:19 (Amlicites cursed) ". . . brought upon themselves the curse ..."
    Alma 23:18 ". . . [Lamanites] did open a correspondence with them [Nephites] and the curse of God did no more follow them."
    3 Nephi 2:14-16 ". . . Lamanites who had united with the Nephites were numbered among the Nephites; And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites . . . became exceedingly fair . . ."
    3 Nephi 19:25, 30 (Disciples) ". . . they were as white as the countenance and also the garments of Jesus; and behold the whiteness thereof did exceed all the whiteness . . . nothing upon earth so white as the whiteness thereof . . . they were white, even as Jesus."
    Mormon 5:15 (Prophecy about Lamanites) ". . .shall become a dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been amongst us . . ."
    Mormon 5:17 "They were once a delightsome people . . ."
    Pearl of Great Price
    Moses 7:8 ". . . a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan . . ."
    Moses 7:12 ". . . Enoch continued to call upon all the people, save it were [except] the people of Canaan, to repent . . ."
    Moses 7:22 ". . . for the seed of Cain were black and had not place among them."
    Abraham 1:21 ". . . king of Egypt [Pharaoh] was a descendant from the loins of Ham, and was a partaker of the blood of the Canaanites by birth."
    Abraham 1:27 ". . . Pharaoh being of that lineage by which he could not have the right of Priesthood . . ."
    (Bold mine)
    Wildly Racial Slurs in Mormon Scriptures


    2 Nephi 5:21 ". . . a sore cursing . . . as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them."

    I know that dark skin was considered a curse by LDS!

    Until 1978, no person of African descent(they were considered the seed of Cain) was allowed into the LDS priesthood:

    http://www.keepxxx.com/video/x00UF9...hy-blacks-were-denied-the-lds-priesthood.html

    Not only was Cain called upon to suffer [for killing Abel], but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race. A curse was placed upon him and that curse has been continued through his lineage and must do so while time endures. Millions of souls have come into this [p. 51] world cursed with a black skin and have been denied the privilege of Priesthood and the fulness of the blessing of the Gospel. These are the descendants of Cain. Moreover, they have been made to feel their inferiority and have been separated from the rest of mankind from the beginning. Enoch saw the people of Canaan, descendants of Cain, and he says, "and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people." . . . In the spirit of sympathy, mercy and faith, we will also hope that blessings may eventually be given to our negro brethren, for they are our brethren—children of God—notwithstanding their black covering emblematical of eternal darkness (The Way to Perfection, by Joseph Fielding Smith, Genealogical Society of Utah, 1935, pp. 101-102).

    “The day of the Lamanites is nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised. In this picture of the twenty Lamanite missionaries, fifteen of the twenty were as light as Anglos; five were darker but equally delightsome. The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.... At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl-sixteen sitting between the dark father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parents on the same reservation, in the same Hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather. There was the doctor in a Utah city who for two years had had an Indian boy in his home who stated that he was some shades lighter than the younger brother just coming into the program from the reservation. These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and delightsomeness. One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated.”
    - Spencer W. Kimball, General Conference, Oct. 1960
     
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