Does the Bible condone slavery?

Tone

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If CVANWEY discusses or is critical of the bible's contents, what do you suggest he uses, the London street directory perhaps?
It always amuses me when Christians get uppity if the bible is criticized when the best they can do to defend it is to say because it's in the bible it must be true.
I would call that using the bible...to prove...the bible.

Well yeah, what can you use to undermine the Bible, apart from the Bible, now that you bring it up?
 
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Tone

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Looks like you did everything but answer the simple question. I'll ask it yet again:

If God exists, and He is 'love', I doubt He would instruct His readers it is okay to own and beat other humans for life. Do you?

And please remember:

20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.


44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.


Will you still continue to act as if I have not fleshed this whole topic out? It seems as though you simply want to chop it all down to some unrecognizable bit of meat...like incorrect dissection of a frog...
 
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cvanwey

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Will you still continue to act as if I have not fleshed this whole topic out? It seems as though you simply want to chop it all down to some unrecognizable bit of meat...like incorrect dissection of a frog...

You appear to not want to address/answer simple questions. Let's try this, yet again...Let's first assume that...

God exists...
God is 'love'....
Not only does God exist, but it is the God of the Bible...
God also promotes Matthew 7:12 ('the golden rule')

Assuming all the above is true, let us moving forward....

Below is a) or b).

a) God tells His readers that it is okay for humans to own other humans, treat them like property, and beat them, all for life - (as demonstrated in Exodus 21 and Leviticus 25). --- Which raises contradiction with the golden rule.

b) People injected all such slavery Verses into the Bible themselves, passed them off as 'god pronouncements', either because they wanted to justify their own actions as 'law', or they really think God told them to, even though He really did not.

Is the answer more likely a) or b)?????????????

Because here's my take-away from all of this...

God either authors contradiction and/or confusion. Or, all the Verses regarding slavery were written by men, and men alone.
 
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Tone

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But God cannot be all loving and all just at the same time or a contradiction emerges of perfections being executed in a way that comes into direct conflict

I don't get it.
 
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Tone

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You appear to not want to address/answer simple questions. Let's try this, yet again...Let's first assume that...

God exists...
God is 'love'....
Not only does God exist, but it is the God of the Bible...
God also promotes Matthew 7:12 ('the golden rule')

Assuming all the above is true, let us moving forward....

Below is a) or b).

a) God tells His readers that it is okay for humans to own other humans, treat them like property, and beat them, all for life - (as demonstrated in Exodus 21 and Leviticus 25). --- Which raises contradiction with the golden rule.

b) People injected all such slavery Verses into the Bible themselves, passed them off as 'god pronouncements', either because they wanted to justify their own actions as 'law', or they really think God told them to, even though He really did not.

Is the answer more likely a) or b)?????????????

Because here's my take-away from all of this...

God either authors contradiction and/or confusion. Or, all the Verses regarding slavery were written by men, and men alone.


Or AI is just not that intelligent.
 
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muichimotsu

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I don't get it.
1) The punishment doesn't fit the crime, though that's already assuming this entity exists and that somehow insulting it by denial of its existence or violating its commands warrants eternal punishment or annihilation (both Christian theological perspectives)

2) If God is all powerful and all knowing, how can God conclude that the only punishment appropriate is the eternal suffering? Not to mention, respecting free will does not mean God has to play hide and seek and expect faith, treating that as a virtue in spite of knowing that people would become more skeptical and utilizing reason to regard the ideas of God and the afterlife with suspicion
 
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Tone

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1) The punishment doesn't fit the crime, though that's already assuming this entity exists and that somehow insulting it by denial of its existence or violating its commands warrants eternal punishment or annihilation (both Christian theological perspectives)

2) If God is all powerful and all knowing, how can God conclude that the only punishment appropriate is the eternal suffering? Not to mention, respecting free will does not mean God has to play hide and seek and expect faith, treating that as a virtue in spite of knowing that people would become more skeptical and utilizing reason to regard the ideas of God and the afterlife with suspicion

Weren't you the one saying everything is not always black/white earlier?

*"Why must it be so absolute instead of seeking an ideal that can be consistent but shift in nature without undermining the principle's benefit and application overall?"

--@muichimotsu
 
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muichimotsu

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Weren't you the one saying everything is not always black/white earlier?

*"Why must it be so absolute instead of seeking an ideal that can be consistent but shift in nature without undermining the principle's benefit and application overall?"

--@muichimotsu
Where am I engaging in black/white thinking? I'm pointing out the inconsistency in God as supposedly perfect, yet the only explanations we have are effectively imperfect due to human language and fallibility
 
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Will you still continue to act as if I have not fleshed this whole topic out? It seems as though you simply want to chop it all down to some unrecognizable bit of meat...like incorrect dissection of a frog...
I wasn't going to point it out, but since you bring it up, you do seem to be dodging the issue quite a bit. @cvanwey is making logical arguments and asking questions, and your answers do not seem to be addressing them.

Tell me - would it be a problem for you if you did become convinced that the Bible endorsed slavery?
 
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Tone

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Let's look at "endorsement" a bit more:


"What Is an Endorsement?
Depending on the context of its use, an endorsement can have different meanings. An endorsement may be a signature authorizing the legal transfer of a negotiable instrument between parties.


Endorsements can also be amendments to contracts or documents, such as life insurance policies or driver's licenses.


A public declaration of support for a person, product, or service is also called an endorsement. For example, a WNBA basketball player may endorse a pair of Nike-brand shoes in a commercial."


Slavery , as a whole, may be "endorsed" by the Bible, as in the first two definitions above, but I wouldn't include the last definition of a "public declaration" of support.


But really, it all depends on what you are speaking about.

Are you speaking about servanthood?

Or are you speaking about kidnapping someone and forcing them to do whatever you want, aka, rape
and/or exploitation?

The Bible will not endorse nor condone the latter, one bit. In fact, it prohibits such.
 
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Let's look at "endorsement" a bit more:


"What Is an Endorsement?
Depending on the context of its use, an endorsement can have different meanings.
Let's check the dictionary, by all means!
endorse
[inˈdôrsenˈdôrs]
VERB

  1. declare one's public approval or support of.
slave
[slāv]
NOUN

  1. a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them.
    "they kidnapped entire towns and turned them into slaves"
Or are you speaking about kidnapping someone and forcing them to do whatever you want, aka, rape and/or exploitation?
Close enough. We might also remember that many slaves were also made so quite legally, by the laws of the time. By this, I mean that it would mischaracterising to assume that all slaves were the result of a band of evil men hiding in the rocks, jumping down on unsuspecting travellers and taking them away to the slave markets. Slaves might be kidnapped in raids, or made slaves as a form of punishment under the law, or taken as prisoners of war. Or, of course, they might be born into slavery.
The Bible will not endorse nor condone the latter.
Bad luck for you, then, because that's exactly what it does do.
Have you forgotten the first two posts of this thread?
Does the Bible condone slavery?

Can I suggest you go back, read them, and then we can have a discussion about them.
 
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Tone

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  1. declare one's public approval or support of.
slave
[slāv]
NOUN

  1. a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them.
    "they kidnapped entire towns and turned them into slaves"

The seed of the serpent will serve the Seed of the woman, yes.

Genesis 3:15
"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

1 Corinthians 9:27
"But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."

Bad luck for you, then, because that's exactly what it does do.
Have you forgotten the first two posts of this thread?
Does the Bible condone slavery?

Oh, did you show where kidnap, rape, and general exploitation is endorsed?
 
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Tone

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As usual, you avoided the entire premise. This speaks volumes, quite frankly.

The point about AI is I don't believe it can handle a seeming contradiction.

It will just not compute...and maybe meltdown?

But we are human beings... multifaceted creatures that have the capacity to process these things.

The Ghost in the machine.
 
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Tone

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Tone

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Not sure how that quote is supposed to address anything, that's YOUR quote, not something I said

You are speaking about the law of non-contradiction correct? Don't you think that it is black/white thinking?


Do you think perfection lies within that framework alone or does it encompass much more?

You hit upon a great reason why we, as infallible creatures, cannot process these seeming contradictions using intellect alone.
 
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cvanwey

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The point about AI is I don't believe it can handle a seeming contradiction.

It will just not compute...and maybe meltdown?

But we are human beings... multifaceted creatures that have the capacity to process these things.

The Ghost in the machine.

post #653
 
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muichimotsu

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You are speaking about the law of non-contradiction correct? Don't you think that it is black/white thinking?


Do you think perfection lies within that framework alone or does it encompass much more?

You hit upon a great reason why we, as infallible creatures, cannot process these seeming contradictions using intellect alone.

No, that's saying that something cannot be both so and not so. Paradoxes are not meant to reflect reality in that sense

Perfection is a hollow delusion, look at my signature to find my general regard to the very idea, because it allows for no progress, no innovation, no real desire, because you're complete at that point

Paradox and contradiction are 2 distinct things I feel like aren't usually understood, because a square circle and things like the liar's paradox are not the same, because the latter can bring up inquiries in regards to language and structure of statements, while a square circle is impossible because of the basic agreements and standards on what a square and a circle are.
 
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