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Fervent

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Except the idea of a “Kingdom of Satan” is unscriptural. The devil is referred to as “the prince of this world” and “the prince of the power of the air”, but never as a king, and furthermore it is made clear that his actions are limited, and that he is only able to do what God allows, so that our faith might be proven, like gold tested in the fire. We see this clearly in Job, and we also see this in the Gospels, where the demons are not even able to possess a herd of swine without permission from God.

Indeed the very idea of a “Kingdom of Satan” is to be rejected as dualistic. Christianity is not a dualist religion - the devil has no power and no rights and is not at war with God, (and by the way, Jesus Christ is God - why are you using the phrase “God and Christ?”), but rather was defeated the instant he rebelled. This is why we don’t even see the devil in most of the Old Testament, and within Christianity, the devil and demons are depicted as being potentially dangerous to us, but completely subservient to God - even when he stupidly tried to tempt the incarnate Word, and failed utterly.

This was one of the main objections of the early church to Manichaenism and other related sects - they taught that the good God was locked in a war with an evil demiurge, with Jesus Christ being an emanation of the good God sent to impart salvific knowledge to us, with the Gospel interpreted as being the information needed to obtain salvation, as opposed to being the account of how God has already procured salvation for the faithful.

+

I would very much like to get the views of my dearly beloved friends @MarkRohfrietsch @Ain't Zwinglian @prodromos @FenderTL5 and @Jipsah on this issue. @Jipsah in particular has made some remarks debunking a dualist interpretation in another thread which I found very enjoyable reading.
It's certainly true that we should oppose anything that smacks of dualism, there are certainly not two comparable powers at war. But that doesn't mean that there is not a war at hand, it's just that the decisive battle has already been won and the job of the faithful is to live in the reality that the war is already won. God has gifted His creation with autonomy, limited though it may be. And Satan and his compatriots have used the autonomy that God granted them to engage in hostilities against Him that are still on going. So we are a people at war, we're just at war with a defeated enemy.
 
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The Liturgist

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I'm still having problems reconciling " God so loved the world..." with His having a staff torturer.

God is Good, and Love, and in the person of the Logos, the only begotten son of the Father, God put on our fallen humanity and suffered death so as to destroy death and enable us to have everlasting life. Therefore the idea that He intentionally tortures us is quite wrong. He does allow our faith to be tested in a manner which is ultimately beneficial, but this is not the exercise of His wrath but rather our loving God taking action to reduce the risk or our experiencing the consuming fire of His love as wrath, which is what happens when those who hate God or love the corruption of the world experience His Love - the burning fire of love is experienced as wrath and becomes a torment.

Further to this point, it is widely believed by Patristic and Orthodox theologians that the Outer Darkness is a mercy God grants to those who reject Him, since they would otherwise experience the light of His immediate presence in the World to Come as an intolerable torment. This aligns with what CS Lewis wrote, “the gates of Hell are locked on the inside,” and also with St. John Chrysostom, who pointed out that the realization of what one was missing out on by not experiencing the joy of the life of the World to Come would be the greatest possible torment.
 
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Bob Crowley

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Apparently the worst that Adolf Hitler can expect from eternal judgement is being eternally locked out of heaven.

He can order the starvation, killing, murder and torture of millions, but all he has to fear is being eternally locked out.

I don't think so - I think God's retribution will be far harsher than that. The threat of the Lake of Fire which looked like molten glass should be enough to give us a hint that God is not soft.

If God the Father was tough enough to expect His own Son to die on a Roman cross for our salvation, I think we can safely assume His justice will be tough.
 
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Joseph G

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It's certainly true that we should oppose anything that smacks of dualism, there are certainly not two comparable powers at war. But that doesn't mean that there is not a war at hand, it's just that the decisive battle has already been won and the job of the faithful is to live in the reality that the war is already won. God has gifted His creation with autonomy, limited though it may be. And Satan and his compatriots have used the autonomy that God granted them to engage in hostilities against Him that are still on going. So we are a people at war, we're just at war with a defeated enemy.
Exactly right. Just because Satan has power, especially to deceive, doesn't mean the believer has to be the least bit intimidated by Him. Our faith defeats his efforts every single time - no matter how insidious or clever his tactics are.

Like you say, we are in a war, though. He is relentless in his efforts to tempt us into pride in every possible direction - even in the wisdom God grants us and the good works He performs through us.

Only one thing defeats him - dying daily to Self, allowing Christ to live through us, and giving Him all glory and victory at the end of each day. THAT is why "no weapon formed against us shall stand."

1 Corinthians 13:1-3 NIV

"If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing."

 
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Joseph G

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God is Good, and Love, and in the person of the Logos, the only begotten son of the Father, God put on our fallen humanity and suffered death so as to destroy death and enable us to have everlasting life. Therefore the idea that He intentionally tortures us is quite wrong. He does allow our faith to be tested in a manner which is ultimately beneficial, but this is not the exercise of His wrath but rather our loving God taking action to reduce the risk or our experiencing the consuming fire of His love as wrath, which is what happens when those who hate God or love the corruption of the world experience His Love - the burning fire of love is experienced as wrath and becomes a torment.

Further to this point, it is widely believed by Patristic and Orthodox theologians that the Outer Darkness is a mercy God grants to those who reject Him, since they would otherwise experience the light of His immediate presence in the World to Come as an intolerable torment. This aligns with what CS Lewis wrote, “the gates of Hell are locked on the inside,” and also with St. John Chrysostom, who pointed out that the realization of what one was missing out on by not experiencing the joy of the life of the World to Come would be the greatest possible torment.

I don't have any Scriptural support to back up this theory, but I see "outer darkness" somewhat differently. I came to this view subjectively, gleaned from years of self-induced isolation.

I imagine God telling the unrepentant unbeliever that He is giving them exactly what they want - an eternity being their own god - continuing to decide for themselves what is right and wrong. And to boot, a reality utterly devoid of any of God's good gifts.

So imagine an eternity of utter darkness. No sensory input either visually or auditory. Just you completely alone with only your own thoughts.

How will you spend eternity? Alternately accusing or justifying yourself - never, ever coming to a satisfactory conclusion. And perhaps replaying your temporal life here over and over reviewing all that God gave you, and how many times you refused His grace.

And there is no one, not even your fellow tormentee, and especially God Himself, to comfort you or ease your affliction or offer any shred of hope for an end to it all.

And still consumed with hate for God. The worm of bitterness never dies.

That to me scares me a lot more than eternal flames, but alas, it appears hell will be both.

Why should someone deserve such a fate? Because somewhere in those flames is someone we dragged there with us. Misery does love company.
 
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The Liturgist

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I don't have any Scriptural support to back up this theory, but I see "outer darkness" somewhat differently. I came to this view subjectively, gleaned from years of self-induced isolation.

I imagine God telling the unrepentant unbeliever that He is giving them exactly what they want - an eternity being their own god - continuing to decide for themselves what is right and wrong. And to boot, a reality utterly devoid of any of God's good gifts.

So imagine an eternity of utter darkness. No sensory input either visually or auditory. Just you completely alone with only your own thoughts.

How will you spend eternity? Alternately accusing or justifying yourself - never, ever coming to a satisfactory conclusion. And perhaps replaying your temporal life here over and over reviewing all that God gave you, and how many times you refused His grace.

And there is no one, not even your fellow tormentee, and especially God Himself, to comfort you or ease your affliction or offer any shred of hope for an end to it all.

And still consumed with hate for God. The worm of bitterness never dies.

That to me scares me a lot more than eternal flames, but alas, it appears hell will be both.

Why should someone deserve such a fate? Because somewhere in those flames is someone we dragged there with us. Misery does love company.

Actually, your view is not terribly different from the Orthodox/Patristic view - the key difference being that God sends people to the Outer Darkness to spare them from what would be infinitely worse, an eternity in his presence.

As for the sensory deprivation aspect, my view, and I believe this aligns with the Patristic view I am referring to, is that God does not inflict this as a punishment, but rather, the people in the Outer Darkness do it to each other, because they hate one another and want to distance themselves from each other to the fullest extent possible, which might well be infinite. CS Lewis articulated a somewhat similar idea in his theological novella The Great Divorce. And even then, as nightmarish as that might sound, it still pales in comparison to the awareness, which the damned will realize soon enough, as to what they are missing out on, as expressed by St. John Chrysostom. Yet their hatred for God is such that given the choice, they would still chose to remain in the outer darkness.

The words of the fictionalized Satan in Paradise Lost, who some people romanticize, stupidly, I should add, are really quite chilling: his hatred for God is such that he would rather exist in a realm of infinite horror over which he exerted some dominion than be reconciled like the Prodigal Son. And I think that is a good way of looking at the mentality of the misotheists who will wind up in the Outer Darkness.

Note that in this post I have tried to clarify between the consensus of the Greek and Syriac fathers of the Orthodox Church on the Outer Darkness, such as St. John Chrysostom, who reposed in 406 AD as a result of being death marched from Constantinople (because he dared to criticize the Empress for her extravagance, because she had a latrine made of solid gold), from my own views, so if you see the phrase “I think”, that is a personal theological opinion (what in Greek we call a theologoumemnon so as to indicate an opinion not contrary, as far as we are aware, to the Patristic teaching). And Orthodox Christians have a lot of scope for theologoumemna as long as we remain within what I call “the Pale of Orthodoxy” as defined by the Creed and the Ecumenical Councils and certain other Patristic doctrines, which as a rule are included in the liturgy of the church,
 
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The Liturgist

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If God the Father was tough enough to expect His own Son to die on a Roman cross for our salvation, I think we can safely assume His justice will be tough.

Since the Trinity is indivisible and not compounded, and each person of the Trinity possesses the fullness of God, being coequal and coeternal according to the doctrine of your church and mine (see the Athanasian Creed) that kind of argument is problematic, particularly since in the person of Jesus Christ, God is Incarnate, and the only begotten Son and Word of God is of one essence with the Father according to the Nicene Creed, but also became consubstantial with us (see the Councils of Nicaea, Constantinople, and Ephesus).

This is why we, for example, venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary as Mother of God rather than Mother of Christ.

It is clear scripturally that the crucifixion of God the Son was a voluntary act, and not something coerced by the Father; we can also reject as innovative the view of Anselm of Canterbury that this was to satisfy the wounded honor of the Father, since this Scholastic opinion is based on Western European chivalry which was unknown to the Early Church.

Rather, the proper way to understand what Christ did is through recourse to St. Athanasius, St. John Chrysostom and the Cappadocians.

For now I shall simply quote the Paschal Homily of St. Chrysostom, widely regarded as the best sermon preached outside of those recorded in Scripture (since in the case of the Sermon on the Mount, that is obviously perfect, and the sermons preached by the Prophets and Apostles insofar as they are recorded in canonical Scripture are inspired). So just as the Orthodox (according to the traditional liturgy used by my church, the Orthodox Church in America, and other Slavonic churches like ROCOR and the UOCNA, and the Ukrainian Greek Catholics) sing the Beatitudes every Sunday, on Pascha, we always preach the same homily:

If any man be devout and love God, let him enjoy this fair and radiant triumphal feast. If any man be a wise servant, let him rejoicing enter into the joy of his Lord. If any have labored long in fasting, let him now receive his recompense. If any have wrought from the first hour, let him today receive his just reward. If any have come at the third hour, let him with thankfulness keep the feast. If any have arrived at the sixth hour, let him have no misgivings; because he shall in nowise be deprived thereof. If any have delayed until the ninth hour, let him draw near, fearing nothing. If any have tarried even until the eleventh hour, let him, also, be not alarmed at his tardiness; for the Lord, who is jealous of his honor, will accept the last even as the first; He gives rest unto him who comes at the eleventh hour, even as unto him who has wrought from the first hour.

And He shows mercy upon the last, and cares for the first; and to the one He gives, and upon the other He bestows gifts. And He both accepts the deeds, and welcomes the intention, and honors the acts and praises the offering. Wherefore, enter you all into the joy of your Lord; and receive your reward, both the first, and likewise the second. You rich and poor together, hold high festival. You sober and you heedless, honor the day. Rejoice today, both you who have fasted and you who have disregarded the fast. The table is full-laden; feast ye all sumptuously. The calf is fatted; let no one go hungry away.

Enjoy ye all the feast of faith: Receive ye all the riches of loving-kindness. let no one bewail his poverty, for the universal kingdom has been revealed. Let no one weep for his iniquities, for pardon has shown forth from the grave. Let no one fear death, for the Savior’s death has set us free. He that was held prisoner of it has annihilated it. By descending into Hell, He made Hell captive. He embittered it when it tasted of His flesh. And Isaiah, foretelling this, did cry: Hell, said he, was embittered, when it encountered Thee in the lower regions. It was embittered, for it was abolished. It was embittered, for it was mocked. It was embittered, for it was slain. It was embittered, for it was overthrown. It was embittered, for it was fettered in chains. It took a body, and met God face to face. It took earth, and encountered Heaven. It took that which was seen, and fell upon the unseen.

O Death, where is your sting? O Hell, where is your victory? Christ is risen, and you are overthrown. Christ is risen, and the demons are fallen. Christ is risen, and the angels rejoice. Christ is risen, and life reigns. Christ is risen, and not one dead remains in the grave. For Christ, being risen from the dead, is become the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. To Him be glory and dominion unto ages of ages. Amen.
 
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Jipsah

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God is Good, and Love, and in the person of the Logos, the only begotten son of the Father, God put on our fallen humanity and suffered death so as to destroy death and enable us to have everlasting life. Therefore the idea that He intentionally tortures us is quite wrong. He does allow our faith to be tested in a manner which is ultimately beneficial, but this is not the exercise of His wrath but rather our loving God taking action to reduce the risk or our experiencing the consuming fire of His love as wrath, which is what happens when those who hate God or love the corruption of the world experience His Love - the burning fire of love is experienced as wrath and becomes a torment.

Further to this point, it is widely believed by Patristic and Orthodox theologians that the Outer Darkness is a mercy God grants to those who reject Him, since they would otherwise experience the light of His immediate presence in the World to Come as an intolerable torment. This aligns with what CS Lewis wrote, “the gates of Hell are locked on the inside,” and also with St. John Chrysostom, who pointed out that the realization of what one was missing out on by not experiencing the joy of the life of the World to Come would be the greatest possible torment.
Thanks bruv.
 
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Jipsah

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Apparently the worst that Adolf Hitler can expect from eternal judgement is being eternally locked out of heaven.
Or having been erased from time and space altogether, which makes more sense to me. Why keep a reeking carcass lying around?
He can order the starvation, killing, murder and torture of millions, but all he has to fear is being eternally locked out.
Yeah, we could keep him around to remiond us of how righteous we look compared to him.
I don't think so - I think God's retribution will be far harsher than that.
Much more like ours might be.
If God the Father was tough enough to expect His own Son to die on a Roman cross for our salvation, I think we can safely assume His justice will be tough.
Our Lord's torments were of limted duration, though.
 
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Bob Crowley

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Hell is an uncomfortable topic, but Christ talked about it more than anyone else.


Jesus doesn’t only reference hell, he describes it in great detail. He says it is a place of eternal torment (Luke 16:23), of unquenchable fire (Mark 9:43), where the worm does not die (Mark 9:48), where people will gnash their teeth in anguish and regret (Matt. 13:42), and from which there is no return, even to warn loved ones (Luke 16:19–31). He calls hell a place of “outer darkness” (Matt. 25:30), comparing it to “Gehenna” (Matt. 10:28), which was a trash dump outside the walls of Jerusalem where rubbish was burned and maggots abounded. Jesus talks about hell more than he talks about heaven, and describes it more vividly. There’s no denying that Jesus knew, believed, and warned about the absolute reality of hell.

Or having been erased from time and space altogether, which makes more sense to me. Why keep a reeking carcass lying around?
That's wishful thinking. Hitler's carcass was left outside the bunker after he'd committed suicide and was reduced to ashes after being set on fire by his compatriots. Constant Russian shellfire further obliterated the remains. But dental records seem to indicate that traces of Hitler were found by the Soviets.

His spirit survived and went through to judgement. He'll still be paying for his crimes today, as per the warnings given by Christ about "eternal punishment". Jesus didn't give those warnings for no reason. He came to specifically save us from that threat.

Matthew 25:46 NIV “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
 
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Joseph G

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Hell is an uncomfortable topic, but Christ talked about it more than anyone else.





That's wishful thinking. Hitler's carcass was left outside the bunker after he'd committed suicide and was reduced to ashes after being set on fire by his compatriots. Constant Russian shellfire further obliterated the remains. But dental records seem to indicate that traces of Hitler were found by the Soviets.

His spirit survived and went through to judgement. He'll still be paying for his crimes today, as per the warnings given by Christ about "eternal punishment". Jesus didn't give those warnings for no reason. He came to specifically save us from that threat.


And right next to Hitler is kindly old Aunt Martha who was everybody's best friend but denied Christ - and by example taught others to. No difference between the two.
 
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Bob Crowley

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I think we can trust God to allow the Devil only so much leeway in how he treats his "prisoners".

While I see the following passage as more applicable to Purgatory, the implication is that we can "pay the last penny" of our debt. Kindly old Aunt Martha will assuredly have much less of a debt than Adolf Hitler.

Matthew 5:26 NIV "Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny."

Someone like "kindly old Aunt Martha" may well go to Purgatory and eventually Heaven.
 
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The Liturgist

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Hell is usually assumed to be under the earth.

From John Gill’s commentary on Phillipians 2:10:

<< … of [things] in heaven: the angels there, and the souls of departed saints, with those who are already clothed with their bodies: and [things] in earth; both good men, and bad men: and [things] under the earth; or "in the abyss", as the Ethiopic version renders it; meaning either the devils in the bottomless pit; or rather the dead bodies of men in the grave, which shall come forth and stand before the judgment seat of Christ. >>

Gill tells us that “in the abyss” is a reasonable rendering of “under the earth” in Phillipians 2:10, so Jesus is the ruler of the abyss, just as He is the ruler of heaven and earth.

Insofar as people are buried, that could make symbolic sense, but obviously Hell is not literally under the earth. There is a fake conspiracy theory about a Soviet borehole detecting screams, but that has been thoroughly debunked. Furthermore we have mines that are deep underground, in some cases as deep as would be safe for human operation, but we have never had miners encounter demons. Although in Bolivia, silver miners who work in a mountain in La Paz and have to mine in tunnels dealing with the dangers of mining in addition to the thin air from the high altitude of that city, engage in a terrible diabolatrous superstition, making offerings of coca leaves and libations of 100% pure alcohol to idols of “El Tio” - a euphemism for the devil. In addition, Inca paganism survives, and engages in sacrifices of llamas, which really upset me, since anyone who has encountered llamas and alpacas knows that they are extremely beautiful and intelligent creatures, who produce exquisite wool and serve as faithful pack animals (their back is not strong enough to carry an fully-grown human, however, unlike camels, which they are distantly related to)

On an interesting related, according to the Septuagint version of Psalm 95 v. 5, “the gods of the gentiles are demons.” That being said, we should not regard people who worship false religions to be devil worshippers, since the vast majority would be horrified by the concept. Rather, I believe a charitable interpretation of this verse (which reads, in the Masoretic text, “the gods of the gentiles are idols”) is to consider that these religions were started as a result of demonic delusion and also dillution - that is to say, the syncretic corruption of sects that broke apart from the ancient faith of Noah and Abraham and of Israel, Judaism and Christianity at different stages in their existence. These sects, which became religions such as Mandaeism, Valentinism, Marcionism, and other dualist heresies, with one notably example being Manichaenism, and more recently, Islam, and in antiquity, I personally think Zoroastrianism was an offshoot of the religion of Abraham at some point, due to its shared belief in an angelic hierarchy that is remarkably similiar (and Manichaenism was a syncretic fusion of Gnostic Christianity and Zoroastrianism, in which the false prophet Mani re-connected the dualism of these religions (which may have originated in Zoroastrianism due to its influence on neo-Platonism and Greco-Roman culture via the Mithras mystereis, which were loosely based on an important angel in Zoroastrianism), and also introduced some minor aspects of Buddhism. Mani then sent out three apostles, one who took the name Thomas and went to areas of Syriac speaking Christians, who had been evangelized by St. Thomas the Apostle and held him in high esteem, and another named Hermes, who was sent to Egypt to focus on the syncretic Hermetic religion based on the worship of Hermes Trimegistus, who was supposed to be both the Greek god Hermes and the Egyptian god Thoth, who were associated with writing* and one named Buddha, who was sent to India. Interestingly, the only known surviving Manichaen places of worship is in China are disguised as Buddhist temples, with Mani depicted as the Buddha, but there are subtle details that allow the temple to be unmistakably identified as Manichaen. Like many minority religions of the Middle East, including Shi’a Islam, Manichaens practiced dissimulation, so their temples in China were officially affiliated with with Taoism and Buddhism, with only subtle cues to identify them to the adherents of that religion.

In the case of Islam, it seems to me fairly clear that at least initially, Mohammed was being deceived by a demon who claimed to be “Jibril”, that is to say, the Archangel Gabriel, which is quite possible according to the Bible, which warns us that the devil and demons will impersonate angels and deities, in 2 Corinthians 11:14 and elsewhere. Thus we are instructed to “test every spirit.” The risk of corruption of the faith by evil powers is also why I believe we are instructed by St. Paul in Galatians 1:8-9 to anathematize anyone who comes preaching a Gospel different from that taught by the Holy Apostles. For example, the founders of Mormonism and its contemporary equivalents should be driven out.

It is also for this reason I am extremely wary of any movements that talk about “the prosperity Gospel” or its opposite, “the Social Gospel” or which talk about there being multiple Gospels, since this all seems to contradict Galatians 1:8-9, particularly since in the Nicene Creed we are taught to believe in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, based on Matthew 16: 18 , 1 Peter 2:5 and v. 9 , Mark 16:15, Acts 2:42 and Ephesians 2:19-22 (Catholic literally means “according to the Whole” and has dual meanings, of being an ecumenical or universal church, and of that church teaching the entire faith, but what this means as far as the organization of the church is concerned is obviously a subject of division between Roman Catholics, different Protestant denominations, and the Orthodox, which I hope can be overcome, at least by many members of the three churches, based on careful study of all documents pertaining to the operation and organization of the Church before the first persistant schisms happened as a result of Nestorius in the 5th century).

*Hermeticism is not to be confused with Christian anchorites, also known as hermits, who live as solitary monastics, such as St. Anthony the Great, and at present, the Coptic Orthodox monk Fr. Lazarus el Antony, who lives in a cave in the hills above the monastery of St. Anthony, near the Cave of St. Anthony, which is used as a chapel in which Fr. Lazarus celebrates the divine liturgy every night, with some monastics and pilgrims from the monastery below. Fr. Lazarus is exceptional in that he converted to Orthodoxy, initially as a monk in the Serbian church before being received into the Coptic church, where he became the first anchorite in some time, and is the only solitary monk at present, and the only monk allowed to spend the night in the caves on the mountain where St. Anthony lived, due to the dangers associated with solitary monasticism.
 
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Aaron112

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Revelation 9:20 New International Version

The rest (remaining twothirds) of mankind who were not killed by these plagues

still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons,

and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk.
 
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Dave Darling

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Satan is often pictured on a throne in hell. Is there any truth in this picture?

Take a look at the following passage from the Epistles.

Ph. 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him
the name that is above every name,
Ph. 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven

and on earth and under the earth,
Ph. 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the
glory of God the Father
Phillipians 2:9-11 NIV

Hell is usually assumed to be under the earth.

From John Gill’s commentary on Phillipians 2:10:

<< … of [things] in heaven: the angels there, and the souls of departed saints, with those who are already clothed with their bodies: and [things] in earth; both good men, and bad men: and [things] under the earth; or "in the abyss", as the Ethiopic version renders it; meaning either the devils in the bottomless pit; or rather the dead bodies of men in the grave, which shall come forth and stand before the judgment seat of Christ. >>

Gill tells us that “in the abyss” is a reasonable rendering of “under the earth” in Phillipians 2:10, so Jesus is the ruler of the abyss, just as He is the ruler of heaven and earth.
No, hell is a place of punishment created for satan and his demons, satan does not rule hell, he will be punished there.
 
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