Does Revelation 20:4-6 & John 5:28-29 completely destroy any pretrib rapture doctrine

[ByTheSpirit]

Revelation 20:4-6 ESV

Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

John 5:28-29 ESV

Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Quick answer:

Yes they do.

Both speak only of 2 resurrections, the first of which (resurrection of life) doesn't happen until after the beast sets up his image and mark and declares war on the church (Revelation 20:4-6)

There cant be a pretrib rapture if the first resurrection isnt until after the beast has been revealed and set up in power.

 

[Choose Wisely]

No.....

 

[Jerico Miles]

Does Revelation 20:4-6 & John 5:28-29 completely destroy any pretrib rapture doctrine

Both describes a resurrection, not a rapture, there's a difference. Both resurrections provides proof that actually destroys any possibility of a post-trib rapture. Therefore, no such thing as a post-trib rapture.

http://www.gotquestions.org/resurrection-first-second.html

Revelation 20:4-6 mentions a “first resurrection” and identifies those involved as “blessed and holy.” The second death (the lake of fire, Revelation 20:14) has no power over these individuals. The first resurrection, then, is the raising of all believers. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the “resurrection of the just” (Luke 14:14) and the “resurrection of life” (John 5:29).

The first resurrection takes place in various stages. Jesus Christ Himself (the “first fruits,” 1 Corinthians 15:20), paved the way for the resurrection of all who believe in Him. There was a resurrection of the Jerusalem saints (Matthew 27:52-53) which should be included in our consideration of the first resurrection. Still to come are the resurrection of “the dead in Christ” at the Lord’s return (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and the resurrection of the martyrs at the end of the Tribulation (Revelation 20:4).

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Ok so when Paul in 1 Thes 4:15-17 says the dead do not precede the living in rising at Jesus return, he didn't mean it? That passage is number one on a pretribbers list of scriptural proof of a pretrib rapture. So yes, the first resurrection does have everything to do with such a doctrine. But again by Rev 20:4-6 and John 5:28-29, the rapture (or catching away) does not happen until after the beast comes to power and sets up his image and mark. No pretrib rapture. You can even throw 2 Thes 2:1-4 in that list of scriptural proofs against a pretrib rapture

 

[Jerico Miles]

There is no rapture or the catching away mentioned in Rev 20.4. It only make sense by your logic.

 

[Manasseh_]

There is no rapture or the catching away mentioned in Rev 20.4. It only make sense by your logic.

there's no mention in the whole bible of any rapture or gathering of saints BEFORE tribulation, not one single verse.........so if you're speaking of logic...........how did pretribbers "logically" come to their conclusion without any explicit proof at all................?

......it's called begging the question (circular reasoning), they just assume what they're trying to prove is already true and from that point every verse that pretribbers use has the same first assumption injected into the verse(s)

ie, pretribbers logic: none of our proof text actually states a gathering of saints before tribulation so we'll just assume (inject, suggest) the doctrine into the verses

 

[Jerico Miles]

there's no mention in the whole bible of any rapture or gathering of saints BEFORE tribulation, not one single verse.........so if you're speaking of logic...........how did pretribbers "logically" come to their conclusion without any explicit proof at all................?

It's there. You just have to read the bible more.

 

[ebedmelech]

1 Corinthians 15:35-58 is what DESTROYS a pre-trib rapture! Those who believe in the pre-trib rapture have one problem...when they try to justify it from scripture...THEY CAN'T!!

They believe in it...but they can't prove it from scripture...IT JUST ISN'T THERE!

 

[ByTheSpirit]

1 Corinthians 15:35-58 is what DESTROYS a pre-trib rapture! Those who believe in the pre-trib rapture have one problem...when they try to justify it from scripture...THEY CAN'T!!

They believe in it...but they can't prove it from scripture...IT JUST ISN'T THERE!

I agree!

 

[Jerico Miles]

1 Corinthians 15:35-58 is what DESTROYS a pre-trib rapture! Those who believe in the pre-trib rapture have one problem...when they try to justify it from scripture...THEY CAN'T!!

They believe in it...but they can't prove it from scripture...IT JUST ISN'T THERE!

Hmm, interesting. How does 1 Corinthians 15:35-58 destroy the pre-trib rapture? You believe it but can you prove it from scripture?

 

[Manasseh_]

It's there. You just have to read the bible more.

peat and repeat, you could read the bible from cover to cover and you won't find one single verse that explicitly says there is a gathering of saints before tribulation begins, it's only there by the false pretrib ASSUMPTION, you can't suggest something is true without some real evidence........again if you're talking "logic" look at the formal argument for this

Premise: The pretrib doctrine is true
2Premise: Because we assume/suggest it's true
Conclusion: Therefore the doctrine is true

you can easily see why it's called begging the question or circular reasoning................pretrib logic is actually no logic

 

[ebedmelech]

Hmm, interesting. How does 1 Corinthians 15:35-58 destroy the pre-trib rapture? You believe it but can you prove it from scripture?

Simply read it! It speaks to the resurrection while many run to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17...which agrees with 1 Corinthians 15:35-38.

There is NO pre-trib rapture in the scriptures only what is contrived to be that.

 

[Rev20]

It's there. You just have to read the bible more.

Jerico, why are the days of the great tribulation shortened for the elect's sake?

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." -- Matt 24:21-22


.

 

[Jerico Miles]

peat and repeat, you could read the bible from cover to cover and you won't find one single verse

That's the problem with most post-tribbers, they always look for a single verse and miss everything else in the bible. Many don't even have a good knowledge of the bible because of this approach at studying the bible. You can look for single verses all your life and never find the truth because not everything can be understood by one verse alone.

Two billion plus christians on the planet believe in a pre-trib rapture, that's a huge majority of the christian population. Do you actually think they all got there by looking for a single verse? How can anyone understand faith from reading a single verse?

Watch the video. Learn about faith in what you read and begin to understand what the bible can teach you beyond a single verse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDZcPG78tms

 

[Rev20]

That's the problem with most post-tribbers, they always look for a single verse and miss everything else in the bible. Many don't even have a good knowledge of the bible because of this approach at studying the bible. You can look for single verses all your life and never find the truth because not everything can be understood by one verse alone.

Two billion plus christians on the planet believe in a pre-trib rapture, that's a huge majority of the christian population. Do you actually think they all got there by looking for a single verse? How can anyone understand faith from reading a single verse?

I assumed you could not explain that glaring contradiction between the doctrine of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of John Nelson Darby.

Can you explain this one? What does that mean, "endure unto the end?" Endure to the end of what?

"And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." -- Matt 24:12-13​

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[Jerico Miles]

Simply read it! It speaks to the resurrection while many run to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17...which agrees with 1 Corinthians 15:35-38.

There is NO pre-trib rapture in the scriptures only what is contrived to be that.

I have read it as well as many others. It's all about the resurrection from the natural body to the spiritual body. Nothing else, nothing mentioned that can testify the mendacious argument you made up. You can learn from the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGdr-PKt1XE

 

[ebedmelech]

That's the problem with most post-tribbers, they always look for a single verse and miss everything else in the bible. Many don't even have a good knowledge of the bible because of this approach at studying the bible. You can look for single verses all your life and never find the truth because not everything can be understood by one verse alone.

Two billion plus christians on the planet believe in a pre-trib rapture, that's a huge majority of the christian population. Do you actually think they all got there by looking for a single verse? How can anyone understand faith from reading a single verse?

Watch the video. Learn about faith in what you read and begin to understand what the bible can teach you beyond a single verse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDZcPG78tms

This is the problem. Instead of reading the scriptures, you're watching videos.

You want to escape...but why is it all of the apostles except John were martyred? That alone should cause you to wonder about the pre-trib rapture.

Not only that, but you don't see the apostles encouraging the saints to look for an escape...but to endure to the end. Paul, John, James Peter, and Jude all do that.

But keep watching videos.

 

[Jerico Miles]

Jerico, why are the days of the great tribulation shortened for the elect's sake?

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." -- Matt 24:21-22


.

Are you asking a question to find out what that scripture means or are you offering to explain what it means?

 

[Jerico Miles]

I have read it as well as many others. It's all about the resurrection from the natural body to the spiritual body. Nothing else, nothing mentioned that can testify the mendacious argument you made up. You can learn from the video.

Actually, I take back a small portion what I said. 1 Corinthians 15:35-58 does prove the falcity teachings of preterism. Preterist can't prove the mass resurrection in 1 Cor 15:35-58 happened in AD70.

They're stymied by this scripture.

 

[Jerico Miles]

This is the problem. Instead of reading the scriptures, you're watching videos.

You want to escape...but why is it all of the apostles except John were martyred? That alone should cause you to wonder about the pre-trib rapture.

Not only that, but you don't see the apostles encouraging the saints to look for an escape...but to endure to the end. Paul, John, James Peter, and Jude all do that.

But keep watching videos.

Well if what everyone has told you on this forum haven't gotten through, you might as well watch the videos instead. My words will likely go out the other ear. What escape are you talking about? Christ said to look up because your salvation is near, Luke 21:28.