Does our loving God send people to hell?

PaulCyp1

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No. He does everything in His power to enable every one of His believed children to come home to Him and spend eternity in perfect happiness with Him. But if some of those children absolutely refuse His offer, is that His fault?
 
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dreadnought

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Inspired by this thread: How can a God of love send people to hell?
and my recent Bible studies, I wanted to open up discussion about this.

There's a whole alternative framework (that's not ever been deemed as heretical by the church) that seems to fit in much better with passages like John 3:16.

If we "dare to hope all men will be saved" (as the author Hans Urs von Balthasar writes) and if we believe that God laid down His life for us....not to "save us" from an angry Father...but to demonstrate His love for us.....it all fits together much better.

Instead of looking at the end.....maybe it'd be better to look at the beginning and start from there?


From Fr Richard Rohr: The incarnation of God and the redemption of the world could never be a mere mop-up exercise in response to human sinfulness, but the proactive work of God from the very beginning. We were "chosen in Christ before the world was made," as the hymn in Ephesians puts it (1:4). Our sin could not possibly be the motive for the divine incarnation, but only perfect love and divine self-revelation! For Scotus, God never merely reacts, but always supremely and freely acts, and always acts totally out of love. Scotus was very Trinitarian.

The best way I can summarize how Scotus tried to change the old notion of retributive justice is this: Jesus did not come to change the mind of God about humanity (it did not need changing)! Jesus came to change the mind of humanity about God. God in Jesus moved people beyond the counting, weighing, and punishing model, that the ego prefers, to the utterly new world that Jesus offered, where God's abundance has made any economy of merit, sacrifice, reparation, or atonement both unhelpful and unnecessary. Jesus undid "once and for all" (Hebrews 7:27; 9:12; 10:10) all notions of human and animal sacrifice and replaced them with his new economy of grace, which is the very heart of the gospel revolution. Jesus was meant to be a game changer for the human psyche and for religion itself. When we begin negatively, or focused on the problem, we never get out of the hamster wheel.~Richard Rohr's Meditation: Love, Not Atonement

First, I think you need to understand what hell is. Hell, I believe, is the natural consequences of our sin. For instance, if you rob a bank, you go to prison. You can always repent of your sin and escape hell (though you might escape prison):

[17] "Yet your people say, `The way of the Lord is not just'; when it is their own way that is not just.
[18] When the righteous turns from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, he shall die for it.
[19] And when the wicked turns from his wickedness, and does what is lawful and right, he shall live by it.
[20] Yet you say, `The way of the Lord is not just.' O house of Israel, I will judge each of you according to his ways." Ezekiel 33:17-20 RSV
 
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ronandcarol

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Does our loving God send people to hell?
NO! Those people choose to spend eternity there by exercising their free will, and not choosing to follow God here on earth. God will not force anyone to spend eternity with Him if they do not want to. They will be there by their own choice. It is God's desire that all people repent and be saved.
ronandcarol
 
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ClementofA

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I have searched for but have been unable to find the EOC giving any kind of credence to the doctrine of apokatastasis, other than OrthodoxWiki and pro-universalist articles mentioning it as the minority view of some members of the orthodox church. Perhaps our EOC friends could help us with this .. as well if there is any 'official' position taken by the EOC about Hell? :)

The EOC members i've heard from here have stated a hope for universalism is a valid option within their faith. The same is true of the RC faith. These are BTW the two largest church denominations.

Here's what one veteran EO member here said:

"We cannot teach universalism, because that was not given to us by the Apostles, nor by Christ. However, along with God, we hope and pray for the salvation of each person."

"...Now the speculative part. We can HOPE, and we do, that it is possible that with knowing the Truth, humans who hate God might let go of what sets them against God, at some point. It would be consistent with God's character for this to happen. He doesn't punish to exact pain, but everything He does is ultimately for restoration. We don't say that it is impossible for Him to restore those souls ... if not all, perhaps many it most ... from their torment. We desire, we pray, we love with God, and we hope that all men will eventually be drawn to Him. Or almost all. We don't know. We cannot proclaim this. We must not assure anyone of the chance of delayed reconciliation. But we always hope in the case if each person. And we certainly don't say "God can't". We do know He desires it."

Will the Universe, the Wicked, Death, and Hell All One Day Be Destroyed?

Another EO source, from one of their scholars, states:

""Orthodoxy’s entire dogmatic deposit resides in the canons of the seven ecumenical councils—everything else in Orthodox tradition, be it ever so venerable, beautiful, or spiritually nourishing, can possess at most the authority of accepted custom, licit conjecture, or fruitful practice—and the consensus of the most conscientious and historically literate Orthodox theologians and scholars over the past several decades (Evdokimov, Bulgakov, Clément, Turincev, Ware, Alfeyev, to name a few) is that universalism as such, as a permissible theologoumenon or plausible hope, has never been condemned by the Church. Doctrine is silent on the matter. So live and let live."

"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts."

Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart

"Moreover, Orthodoxy includes a prevalent tradition of apokatastasis, or the restoration of all things in the end. This has been taught most notably by Origen, but also many other Church fathers and Saints, including Gregory of Nyssa. The Second Council of Constantinople (553 C.E.) affirmed the orthodoxy of Gregory of Nyssa while simultaneously condemning Origen's brand of universalism because it taught the restoration back to our pre-existent state, which Orthodoxy doesn't teach. It is also a teaching of such eminent Orthodox theologians as Olivier Clément, Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, and Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev.[53] Although apokatastasis is not a dogma of the church but instead a theologoumena, it is no less a teaching of the Orthodox Church than its rejection. As Met. Kallistos Ware explains, "It is heretical to say that all must be saved, for this is to deny free will; but, it is legitimate to hope that all may be saved,"[54] as insisting on torment without end also denies free will."

Afterlife - Wikipedia

Re the RCC faith, this is from "Good Goats: Healing Our Image of God", p.66 via the Paulist Press, 1994:

"The Church, which invokes its infallibility in the canonization of the saints, has never done so with regard to the damned. We cannot know with certainty if even one human soul does in fact go to hell" (quoting RC scholar Karl Rahner).


More info re the RCC, EO & universalism here:

"Universalism is the new Christian orthodoxy"
 
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The Times

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Jesus draws a line of separation between the wheat and the tares and his parable clearly highlights that there are those who are cast out and rejected.

God is Love and therefore his righteousness identifies evil and casts it out. He as Kingly Judge sends the enemies of the Cross to Hell. Anyone not made subject to his Cross are cast out.

He sends them to hell in the billions.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Scripture reveals God's judgements, wrath, anger & such are corrective:

Job 5:17-18 “Behold, happy is the man whom God corrects; Therefore do not despise the chastening of the Almighty. For He bruises, but he binds up; He wounds, but His hands make whole.”

Hab.1:12 O LORD my God, my Holy One, you who are eternal--surely you do not plan to wipe us out? O LORD, our Rock, you have sent these Babylonians to correct us, to punish us for our many sins.

Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)

Isaiah 12:1
Then you will say on that day, "I will give thanks to You, O LORD; For although You were angry with me, Your anger is turned away, And You comfort me.

Hosea 6:1
"Come, let us return to the LORD. For He has torn us, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bandage us.

Isa.57:17 “Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him;
I hid My face and was angry, And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart.

18“I have seen his ways, but I will heal him;
I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners,

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Which is not opposed to Scripture revealing God's judgements, wrath, anger as eternal. See post :30
 
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ClementofA

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St_Worm2

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The EOC members i've heard from here have stated a hope for universalism is a valid option within their faith. The same is true of the RC faith. These are BTW the two largest church denominations.

Here's what one veteran EO member here said:

"We cannot teach universalism, because that was not given to us by the Apostles, nor by Christ. However, along with God, we hope and pray for the salvation of each person."

"...Now the speculative part. We can HOPE, and we do, that it is possible that with knowing the Truth, humans who hate God might let go of what sets them against God, at some point. It would be consistent with God's character for this to happen. He doesn't punish to exact pain, but everything He does is ultimately for restoration. We don't say that it is impossible for Him to restore those souls ... if not all, perhaps many it most ... from their torment. We desire, we pray, we love with God, and we hope that all men will eventually be drawn to Him. Or almost all. We don't know. We cannot proclaim this. We must not assure anyone of the chance of delayed reconciliation. But we always hope in the case if each person. And we certainly don't say "God can't". We do know He desires it."

Will the Universe, the Wicked, Death, and Hell All One Day Be Destroyed?

Another EO source, from one of their scholars, states:

""Orthodoxy’s entire dogmatic deposit resides in the canons of the seven ecumenical councils—everything else in Orthodox tradition, be it ever so venerable, beautiful, or spiritually nourishing, can possess at most the authority of accepted custom, licit conjecture, or fruitful practice—and the consensus of the most conscientious and historically literate Orthodox theologians and scholars over the past several decades (Evdokimov, Bulgakov, Clément, Turincev, Ware, Alfeyev, to name a few) is that universalism as such, as a permissible theologoumenon or plausible hope, has never been condemned by the Church. Doctrine is silent on the matter. So live and let live."

"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts."

Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart

"Moreover, Orthodoxy includes a prevalent tradition of apokatastasis, or the restoration of all things in the end. This has been taught most notably by Origen, but also many other Church fathers and Saints, including Gregory of Nyssa. The Second Council of Constantinople (553 C.E.) affirmed the orthodoxy of Gregory of Nyssa while simultaneously condemning Origen's brand of universalism because it taught the restoration back to our pre-existent state, which Orthodoxy doesn't teach. It is also a teaching of such eminent Orthodox theologians as Olivier Clément, Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, and Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev.[53] Although apokatastasis is not a dogma of the church but instead a theologoumena, it is no less a teaching of the Orthodox Church than its rejection. As Met. Kallistos Ware explains, "It is heretical to say that all must be saved, for this is to deny free will; but, it is legitimate to hope that all may be saved,"[54] as insisting on torment without end also denies free will."

Afterlife - Wikipedia

Re the RCC faith, this is from "Good Goats: Healing Our Image of God", p.66 via the Paulist Press, 1994:

"The Church, which invokes its infallibility in the canonization of the saints, has never done so with regard to the damned. We cannot know with certainty if even one human soul does in fact go to hell" (quoting RC scholar Karl Rahner).


More info re the RCC, EO & universalism here:

"Universalism is the new Christian orthodoxy"

Hi Clement, the problem here is that what is traditionally believed (because it is so clearly taught in the Bible) seems the same for the Orthodox as it does for all other churches. IOW, their teaching that the next age will be populated by some who experience eternal bliss, and others, eternal agony, seems dogmatic, while the minority view among some members of the Orthodox church seems just as sketchy and unsupportable as it does in any other church body within Christendom. It is more of a "hope" on the part of some than a "belief" that is taught/held by the EOC or any other church/denomination for that matter. As the helpful posit you made for us above said:

Here's what one veteran EO member here said:

"We cannot teach universalism, because that was not given to us by the Apostles, nor by Christ."
*
*(please click on the Spurgeon quote below in my signature line and take note of what this Calvinist theologian/preacher instructs Christians to do)

Christians can hope for such a universal salvation (in spite of what the Bible and the church both teach), and I could be persuaded that most do, because I also believe that few, on this side of Glory, would wish for such an end (eternal, conscious Hell), even for the worst among us.

Yours and His,
David
 
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ClementofA

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From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1861 - Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God's forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ's kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back.

To deny hell would be to deny this teaching of the church. That would amount to heresy.

Universal Salvation and the Roman Catholic Church

"Universal Salvation in the Modern Church
The doctrine of universal salvation has become very popular in the modern Roman Catholic Church. St. Therese of the Child Jesus is said to have maintain it in the nineteenth Century when it was apparently still rare for anyone to do so. Pope John Paul made her a Doctor (a special teacher) of the Church and her litle way spirituality of childlike trust in God has been heavily promoted amongst Catholics.

• St. Therese wrote a Christmas play for her sisters, in which the Child Jesus insists, in correction of the Angel of Vengeance, that, 'every soul will find forgiveness'. On the last day, the Child Jesus will remain "the God of love" who suffered to recompense all of the sins of the entire human race.

Hans Urs von Balthasar argued in favour of the doctrine; he has been called Pope John Paul's favourite theologian and he founded a theological journal with Ratzinger now Pope Benedict.

• In his encyclical Redemptoris Missio, Pope John Paul II expresses forcefully the same position defended by Balthasar. If Christ desires the salvation of all and if there is a "real possibility of salvation in Christ for all humanity," hope for all is simply part of what it means to follow Christ.

Karl Rahner also popularised the doctrine amongst Catholics.

The Second Vatican Council maintained the doctrine that all will be saved in the Apokatastasis or Final Restoration of All Things . The following is taken from the constitution Gaudium et Spes (1:45, 2:57).

• While helping the world and receiving many benefits from it, the Church has a single intention: that God's kingdom may come, and that the salvation of the whole human race may come to pass . For every benefit which the People of God during its earthly pilgrimage can offer to the human family stems from the fact that the Church is 'the universal sacrament of salvation' simultaneously manifesting and actualising the mystery of God's love.

For God's Word, by whom all things were made, was Himself made flesh so that as perfect man He might save all men and sum up all things in Himself . The Lord is the goal of human history, the focal point of the longings of history and of civilization, the center of the human race, the joy of every heart and the answer to all its yearnings. He it is Whom the Father raised from the dead, lifted on high and stationed at His right hand, making Him judge of the living and the dead. Enlivened and united in His Spirit, we journey toward the consummation of human history, one which fully accords with the counsel of God's love: "To reestablish all things in Christ, both those in the heavens and those on the earth" (Eph. 1:10).

... Moreover, by the impulse of grace, he is disposed to acknowledge the Word of God, Who before He became flesh in order to save all and to sum up all in Himself was already "in the world" as "the true light which enlightens every man" (John 1:9-10).

Pope John Paul II often gave us to hope that all will be saved and taught the doctrine of universal salvation. The following are but three examples of many compiled.

• Eternal damnation remains a possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it. (General Audience of July 28, 1999)

• Christ, Redeemer of man, now for ever 'clad in a robe dipped in blood' (Apoc, 19,13), the everlasting, invincible guarantee of universal salvation. (Message of John Paul II to the Abbess General of the Order of the Most Holy Saviour of St Bridget)

• If the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, is to convince the world precisely of this 'judgment,' undoubtedly he does so to continue Christ's work aimed at universal salvation. We can therefore conclude that in bearing witness to Christ, the Paraclete is an assiduous (though invisible) advocate and defender of the work of salvation, and of all those engaged in this work. He is also the guarantor of the definitive triumph over sin and over the world subjected to sin, in order to free it from sin and introduce it into the way of salvation. (General Audience of May 24, 1989)

The new, post-Vatican II Catechism of the Catholic Church also gives us to hope that all will be saved.

• 1058 The Church prays that no one should be lost : 'Lord, let me never be parted from you.' If it is true that no one can save himself, it is also true that God 'desires all men to be saved' (1 Tim 2:4), and that for him 'all things are possible' (Mt 19:26).

• 1821 We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will. In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere 'to the end' and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God's eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ. In hope, the Church prays for 'all men to be saved.'

The new Roman Missal and Divine Office do too.

• Remember our brothers and sisters who have gone to their rest in the hope of rising again; bring them and all the departed into the light of your presence. Have mercy on us all. (Eucharistic Prayer II)

• Almighty God, we recall how you sent your angel to the centurion Cornelius to show him the way of salvation. Open our hearts to work more zealously for the salvation of the world, so that your Church may bring us and all men into your presence. (Divine Office, Tuesdays, Afternoon Prayer)

Cardinal Cormac Murphy O'Connor, the head of the Catholic Church in England and Wales, recently expressed his hope that all will be saved in an interview with a Catholic newspaper.

• We're not bound to believe that anybody's there (in hell), let's face it... I cannot think of heaven without thinking of being in communion with all the saints and with all the people I've loved on this earth... I hope I will be surprised in heaven, I think I will be."

Universal Salvation and the Roman Catholic Church
 
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ClementofA

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Hi Clement, the problem here is that what is traditionally believed (because it is so clearly taught in the Bible) seems the same for the Orthodox as it does for all other churches. IOW, their teaching that the next age will be populated by some who experience eternal bliss, and others, eternal agony, seems dogmatic, while the minority view among some members of the Orthodox church seems just as sketchy and unsupportable as it does in any other church body within Christendom. It is more of a "hope" on the part of some than a "belief" that is taught/held by the EOC or any other church/denomination for that matter.

Is there any evidence you can provide that endless torments is a majority view in either the RCC or EO denominations? What evidence is there that universalism, or the hope thereof, is not the view of the vast majority? Why would you care?

For what it's worth (quite a bit IMO) the overwhelming majority of Bible believing Christians also don't see it your way, according to the scriptures.

(A.) That's debatable. For example, both the RC & EO allow one to hope for universalism, though many don't just hope but believe it in spite of their church's position. Moreover many more would accept universalism if they weren't entirely ignorant of its positions, or were fully informed of the view. BTW, many others have rejected endless torments in favor of endless annihilation.

(B.) It may have been true through the dark & middle ages when few people had bibles of their own & wouldn't have been able to read them if they did & to speak otherwise would have meant punishment or death. Not a point that is in favor of anti-universalism.

(C.) In the early church, when they could read the Scriptures in their original languages, rather than English language KJV pro Endless Infernalism club mistranslated clones, there were, at times at least, many (or perhaps a majority) who rejected endless punishment:

(1.) "Even Augustine, the champion of eternal torment said in his day, "There are very many (imo quam plurimi, which can be translated majority) who though not denying the Holy Scriptures,
do not believe in endless torments" (Enchiria, ad Laurent. c. 29). St. Basil the Great (c. 329-379) in his De Asceticis wrote: "The mass of men (Christians) say that there is to be an end
of punishment to those who are punished." " Appendix Five

"It is in vain, then, that some, indeed very many, make moan over the eternal punishment, and perpetual, unintermitted torments of the lost, and say they do not believe it shall be so; not,
indeed, that they directly oppose themselves to Holy Scripture..." Augustine's ENCHIRIDION, Chs. 97-122

The context of the Augustine (c. 354-430 AD) quote in chapters 111 & 112 includes fallen angels & implies their ultimate salvation.

(2.) "St. Basil the Great (c. 329-379) in his De Asceticis wrote: "The mass of men (Christians) say that there is to be an end of punishment to those who are punished." "(The Ascetic Works
of St. Basil, pp.329-30...Conc. 14 De. fut judic)." Universalism and the Salvation of Satan

"...many people...adhere to the conception of the end of punishment..." (Basil)

(Basil’s short Regulae for his monks, 267 (PG 31,1264,30–1265,47) & by Symeon Metaphrastes, Or. 14 De iudicio 3,551–552. As quoted & cited in Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis, p.352).

If there is an end of punishment to those punished, then what is left but universal salvation, even of devils?

(3) John Chrysostom (c. 349-407 A.D.) "There are many men...thinking that hell is...temporary, not eternal..." (Homilies on Second Thessalonians 3 (NPNF 1 13:384)).


(4.) "St. Jerome (c. 342-420 A.D.), the author of the Vulgate Latin Bible...writes: "I know that most persons understand by the story of Nineveh and its King, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil
and all rational creatures." The Church Fathers on Universalism

Jerome says:

"I know that many people interpret the king of Nineveh as the devil, saying that he, at the end of the world (on the grounds that no rational creature made by God should perish), descending from his pride, would repent, and be restored to his former place." [Commentary on Jonah 3:6-9] https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/bitstream/handle/2142/46905/Amy_Oh.pdf?sequence=1

Whether or not the reference to Ninevah is a misrepresentation by Jerome against his opponents, such as Origen, is unknown. What is known is that Origen (c. 184-254 AD) based his doctrine of universalism on the Scriptures, his favorite passage being 1 Cor.15:28:

"This final phrase is a clear reference to 1Cor 15:28, Origen’s and Nyssen’s favourite passage in support of the apokatastasis doctrine.34" (page 15)

"The eventual submission of humanity to God is a reference to Paul’s eschatological revelation in 1Cor 15:24–28, which is also a very universalistic passage, concluding with the presence of God as “all in all.” This will be one of the favourite passages of Origen in support of the doctrine of apokatastasis." (page 94)

"Thus, at the end of all aeons, in the eventual apokatastasis, all will come to be, no longer in any aeon, but in God the Trinity, and in turn God will be “all in all.” The meaning of this Pauline sentence (1Cor 15:28, Origen’s favourite passage in defence of apokatastasis) is explained especially in Princ. 3,6,2–3. Here, Origen first deduces the definitive eviction of evil from the presence of God “all in all,” given that it is impossible to admit that God may be found in evil, as I have already pointed out; then, he examines:

" "What is this “all” that God will be “in all”? […] It means that God will be “all” even in every individual creature. And God will be “all” in these creatures in the sense that whatever the rational intellect, freed from any dirtiness of sin and purified from any taint of evil, will be able to perceive, grasp and think, all this will be God […], and so God will be all for this intellect […], because evil will not exist any more: for such intellect, God, untouched by evil, is all. One who is always in the Good and for whom God is all, will no longer wish to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil […] After removing every sense of evil, only he who is the sole good God will become all for the creature returned to a state of soundness and purity […] and not only in few or in many, but in all God will be all, when at last there will be no more death, nor death’s sting, nor evil, most definitely: then God will truly be “all in all.” " " (page 168)

Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)

The Christian Doctrine of <i>Apokatastasis</i>

Scholars directory, with list of publications:

Ilaria L.E. Ramelli - ISNS Scholars Directory

>Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism
 
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St_Worm2

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Is there any evidence you can provide that endless torments is a majority view in either the RCC or EO denominations? What evidence is there that universalism, or the hope thereof, is not the view of the vast majority? Why would you care?

Hi again Clement, I assume that the majority of RC's and EO's believe what their churches teach (if they do not, why would they stay :scratch:), so when I speak of a "minority" view among the members of any church, I am speaking of those who choose to hold to different beliefs than the ones that their churches teach.

--David
 
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Tree of Life

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Scripture reveals God's judgements, wrath, anger & such are corrective:

Job 5:17-18 “Behold, happy is the man whom God corrects; Therefore do not despise the chastening of the Almighty. For He bruises, but he binds up; He wounds, but His hands make whole.”

Hab.1:12 O LORD my God, my Holy One, you who are eternal--surely you do not plan to wipe us out? O LORD, our Rock, you have sent these Babylonians to correct us, to punish us for our many sins.

Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)

Isaiah 12:1
Then you will say on that day, "I will give thanks to You, O LORD; For although You were angry with me, Your anger is turned away, And You comfort me.

Hosea 6:1
"Come, let us return to the LORD. For He has torn us, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bandage us.

Isa.57:17 “Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him;
I hid My face and was angry, And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart.

18“I have seen his ways, but I will heal him;
I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners,

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Though not all of these Scriptures attest to your point, I will grant that judgments from God can have a disciplinary and corrective character. This assumes, of course, that these judgments actually succeed in producing repentance and that the sinner is corrected by them. Sadly, we know from experience and from Scripture that many will not repent when faced with God's discipline. God's discipline will only harden them in their sinful position, unto their ultimate destruction. See Revelation 16:9.
 
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ClementofA

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Hi again Clement, I assume that the majority of RC's and EO's believe what their churches teach (if they do not, why would they stay :scratch:), so when I speak of a "minority" view among the members of any church, I am speaking of those who choose to hold to different beliefs than the ones that their church teaches.

The - official - position of the RCC (if not the EO as well) is, no doubt, debated amongst themselves unlike, for example, some Reformed groups.

From what i've posted already there seems to clearly be the view in the EO that universalism is considered to be a possible outcome which can be - officially - hoped for. While, no doubt, many go beyond that & definitely affirm that all will be saved, e.g. the EO scholar i quoted, who has BTW published a translation of the NT.

But why would you care about these things?

On pages 2-3 (footnote 6) of her tome, Ramelli states:

" On 7.IV.2008 the Orthodox bishop Hilarion of Vienna at the first world congress on Divine Mercy observed that the Orthodox concept of hell corresponds to the Catholic concept of Purgatory. Timothy (Kallistos) Ware, an Orthodox monk and metropolitan of Dioclea, in How Are We Saved? The Understanding of Salvation in the Orthodox Tradition (Light&Life, 1996), shows that the doctrine of apokatastasis is part and parcel of the Orthodox tradition."

"In 2005 Card. Murphy O’Connor, the Catholic archbishop of Westminster, observed that the doctrine of universal salvation is compatible with the Catholic faith. John Paul II, who wanted to create Hans Urs von Balthasar a cardinal before his death, on 28.VII.1999 declared that eternal damnation remains a possibility, but humans cannot know whether it will involve human beings, and which. In a message to the general Abbess of the order of “SS. Salvatore di S. Brigida” he defined Christ “the eternal, invincible guarantor of universal salvation.” On 24.V.1989 he defined the work of Christ as aiming at “universal salvation,” and the Holy Spirit as “the guarantor of the definitive triumph over sin and the world that is subject to sin, in order to liberate it from sin.” In his Encyclical letter Redemptor hominis he declared that “every human being” has been included in the mystery of Redemption,and Christ “has united himself with each one, even when the human being is unaware of this.” See also below, the Conclusions of the present monograph."

Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)

The Catholic Church and Universalism
 
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ClementofA

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Though not all of these Scriptures attest to your point, I will grant that judgments from God can have a disciplinary and corrective character. This assumes, of course, that these judgments actually succeed in producing repentance and that the sinner is corrected by them. Sadly, we know from experience and from Scripture that many will not repent when faced with God's discipline. God's discipline will only harden them in their sinful position, unto their ultimate destruction. See Revelation 16:9.

Revelation 16:9 shows that some people, at a certain point in their eternal journey while still alive in their mortal bodies on earth, didn't repent. It says nothing about whether or not they'll change their minds in their endless future of billions X trillions of years that will follow that momentary period of unrepentance.

"It's tempting for me to believe that God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."

Do Catholics teach some form of Universalism?
 
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God created Hell for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41). He also does not anyone to perish, but for everyone to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). However, not everyone will repent of their unbelief in Jesus Christ (John 3:36). Because God won't take away an individual's free will to choose if they don't choose Jesus, He has not created any other place for them to spend eternity. Therefore, God doesn't really send people to Hell as much as those people choose to go there because they don't want to spend eternity with God. He is only honoring their choice.
 
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................... both the RC & EO allow one to hope for universalism, though many don't just hope but believe it in spite of their church's position.
Every Christian with an ounce of compassion "hopes" for universalism. We don't need the permission of the RC or the EO to do so.

The question before us is whether the scriptures teach it. They do not.

Therefore, it can only remain a vague hope for Bible believers that what appears to be the plain sense of scripture has somehow been misunderstood all these years.

If it turns out to be universal salvation in spite of what the scriptures seem to teach - those of us who have that ounce of compassion will applaud loudly as the Lord explains what He really meant when He penned the scriptures for us concerning the fate of those who do not receive the work of Jesus Christ at Calvary as their only hope of salvation.
 
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anna ~ grace

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Inspired by this thread: How can a God of love send people to hell?
and my recent Bible studies, I wanted to open up discussion about this.

There's a whole alternative framework (that's not ever been deemed as heretical by the church) that seems to fit in much better with passages like John 3:16.

If we "dare to hope all men will be saved" (as the author Hans Urs von Balthasar writes) and if we believe that God laid down His life for us....not to "save us" from an angry Father...but to demonstrate His love for us.....it all fits together much better.

Instead of looking at the end.....maybe it'd be better to look at the beginning and start from there?


From Fr Richard Rohr: The incarnation of God and the redemption of the world could never be a mere mop-up exercise in response to human sinfulness, but the proactive work of God from the very beginning. We were "chosen in Christ before the world was made," as the hymn in Ephesians puts it (1:4). Our sin could not possibly be the motive for the divine incarnation, but only perfect love and divine self-revelation! For Scotus, God never merely reacts, but always supremely and freely acts, and always acts totally out of love. Scotus was very Trinitarian.

The best way I can summarize how Scotus tried to change the old notion of retributive justice is this: Jesus did not come to change the mind of God about humanity (it did not need changing)! Jesus came to change the mind of humanity about God. God in Jesus moved people beyond the counting, weighing, and punishing model, that the ego prefers, to the utterly new world that Jesus offered, where God's abundance has made any economy of merit, sacrifice, reparation, or atonement both unhelpful and unnecessary. Jesus undid "once and for all" (Hebrews 7:27; 9:12; 10:10) all notions of human and animal sacrifice and replaced them with his new economy of grace, which is the very heart of the gospel revolution. Jesus was meant to be a game changer for the human psyche and for religion itself. When we begin negatively, or focused on the problem, we never get out of the hamster wheel.~Richard Rohr's Meditation: Love, Not Atonement

I know that universalism is a tempting, lovely-seeming idea. I used to kind of hope in it. But it is said that we send ourselves to Hell, and that God allows us to go there, who love sin and disbelief more than the God who gave Himself for us.
 
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The question as to what the pre 431 AD Orthodox Church believed in regards to salvation, should be highlighted.

In contrast, the Universal Salvation doctrine, is a play on the modern world view of political correctness and it goes something like this.....

If God is love and God so loved the world that who ever believes in the Son should not perish, but have everlasting life, then God is somehow obligated in his infinite mercy to pardon.

Notice John is the one who provides the summary of the John 3:16 verse.

The western world view has it that God is obligated to save all who believe, but the unanswered question remains, what does it entail to believe?

Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.” (John 14:21)

“Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. (John 14:13-14)

To believe is to have your lamps trimmed and ready, that is to obey the teachings of Jesus and to fall under his authority. To believe and to love Jesus are one in the same thing, which places the person as a subject of the Lord and in this respect, the condition of belief can only be validated, if Jesus remains the final authority in one's life, even unto death.

Notice the obligation is upon the subjects and not the Master of the House, yet in today's twisted political correctness world view, God is made subject to man and therefore is charged as being obligated to save all, otherwise he will somehow loose his God is Love status.

This futile act by reprobate minds has turned the gospel message upside down and made man the master, and God as the subject under obligation. Essentially this is what this antithesis gospel has come down to, in order for man to continue with the trending ways of the world and to justify the social position as being acceptable to God, when God on the other hand, wants nothing more than to.......

"bring such distress on all people that they will grope about like those who are blind, because they have sinned against the LORD. Their blood will be poured out like dust and their entrails like dung. (Zephaniah 2:17)

It is written do NOT TEMPT your Lord God, for he will turn on you and position you unknowingly as his enemy, so that you are fair game for the killing in the lake of fire, that he has prepared for all his enemies.

For whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 30And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 25:29-30)

It is clear, that what those once servants thought they had with Jesus, will be taken away from them, meaning they will be dispossessed of their eternal inheritance. It is clear that God can position once servants as his enemies, so that they be dispossessed of their Heavenly treasures and then are discarded forever. Saint Paul also mentions something along the lines of......

all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. (2 Thessalonians 2:10-12)

In conclusion, it is clear that the God who is love uses entrapment to place unbecoming servants in a deluded state of mind, so that they remain complacent, thinking that they have the truth, when nothing could be further away from the truth, so that they are condemned to hell.

The Eastern Orthodox faith pre 431 AD who knew only persecutions and martyredom were always living as if every hour was their last hour and so they had their lamps ready and trimmed and preached that if you did not, then you will be lost forever. No purgatory, no second chance, because everything hinged on the spiritual state of mind and heart before the last breath was taken.
 
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Inspired by this thread: How can a God of love send people to hell?
and my recent Bible studies, I wanted to open up discussion about this.

There's a whole alternative framework (that's not ever been deemed as heretical by the church) that seems to fit in much better with passages like John 3:16.

If we "dare to hope all men will be saved" (as the author Hans Urs von Balthasar writes) and if we believe that God laid down His life for us....not to "save us" from an angry Father...but to demonstrate His love for us.....it all fits together much better.

Instead of looking at the end.....maybe it'd be better to look at the beginning and start from there?


From Fr Richard Rohr: The incarnation of God and the redemption of the world could never be a mere mop-up exercise in response to human sinfulness, but the proactive work of God from the very beginning. We were "chosen in Christ before the world was made," as the hymn in Ephesians puts it (1:4). Our sin could not possibly be the motive for the divine incarnation, but only perfect love and divine self-revelation! For Scotus, God never merely reacts, but always supremely and freely acts, and always acts totally out of love. Scotus was very Trinitarian.

The best way I can summarize how Scotus tried to change the old notion of retributive justice is this: Jesus did not come to change the mind of God about humanity (it did not need changing)! Jesus came to change the mind of humanity about God. God in Jesus moved people beyond the counting, weighing, and punishing model, that the ego prefers, to the utterly new world that Jesus offered, where God's abundance has made any economy of merit, sacrifice, reparation, or atonement both unhelpful and unnecessary. Jesus undid "once and for all" (Hebrews 7:27; 9:12; 10:10) all notions of human and animal sacrifice and replaced them with his new economy of grace, which is the very heart of the gospel revolution. Jesus was meant to be a game changer for the human psyche and for religion itself. When we begin negatively, or focused on the problem, we never get out of the hamster wheel.~Richard Rohr's Meditation: Love, Not Atonement


Mk,

Richard Rohr teaches another gospel and another God. I'm not interested in following his theology. See: Why I Don’t Flow with Richard Rohr (Fred Sanders 2016).

Oz
 
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thesunisout

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One of the main reasons people believe in Universalism is because they exalt the goodness of man. In their hearts they don't believe man deserves to go to hell. Well, the bible says man does deserve to go to hell. All men are evil from their youth and slaves to their own vile passions, doing the will of the devil with gladness. It is mans natural instinct to reject God and His Son Jesus Christ. Without God the work of every man is corrupt and worthless and it leads other men into hellfire. This is the sad state of the natural condition of man and Gods justice against this wickedness is right. God is holy and He will eternally punish every sin not covered by the blood of Christ.

This is what scripture teaches, and this is why Jesus had to come, because man is utterly unable to save himself. It is only because God loves mankind that this is even possible. Jesus is the only way to be forgiven; that is Gods design because He isn't forgiving any sin outside of the atonement He has provided. This is why the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.
 
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