Does Orthodoxy subscribe to this?

Light of the East

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I am reading a book by Fr. Thomas Merton on the Trappists. It is about a woman who entered the Trappistines (women Trappists) in the 1800's. In one of her diary entries she records:

"I answer Your call. Here I am" I desire nothing, from now , but Your holy Will, and Your divine Heart will be the altar of my immolation. Yes, it is in the furnace of love that I desire to see consumed all that remains of myself, in order that I may no longer be myself but You, O Jesus. Continue in this heart, which belongs to You, the tortures of Calvary, for as long as this new victim is not immolated, Your Sacrifice will be unfinished. Your work of redemption incomplete."

Will be unfinished? Does Orthodoxy have a similar view of the ascetic life and theosis? Does theosis (or divinization) involve punitive measures such as hair shirts and "disciplines" which apparently involved little sharp pieces of metal that pricked the skin of the Trappist?

I find this disturbing and something doesn't seem quite right about it.

Comments?

PLEASE - ONLY ORTHODOX COMMENTATORS ON MY QUESTION. I AM NOT LOOKING FOR ANY COMMENTS FROM NON-ORTHODOX!!!!
 

graphite412

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In short, the ascetic disciplines are seen in a different light from the sort of spirituality that you quoted. There is no sort of self torture to get out of temporal punishment mindset in Orthodoxy. I can't remember the books that I've read about this in Orthodoxy, but I think some dogmatics books address this issue. Perhaps I can find the quote...
 
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Light of the East

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In short, the ascetic disciplines are seen in a different light from the sort of spirituality that you quoted. There is no sort of self torture to get out of temporal punishment mindset in Orthodoxy. I can't remember the books that I've read about this in Orthodoxy, but I think some dogmatics books address this issue. Perhaps I can find the quote...

This is from a Roman Catholic writer, so that kind of legal/punishment mindset appears to be bleeding through.

I have to wonder if this sort of thinking is saintly or more on the deranged side.
 
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graphite412

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Does theosis (or divinization) involve punitive measures such as hair shirts and "disciplines"

Asceticism has always involved more than fasting, such as sleeplessness, metal chains, and exposure to the cold or even hair shirts, but the reasons for wearing these are different than in Roman Catholicism.
 
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I am reading a book by Fr. Thomas Merton on the Trappists. It is about a woman who entered the Trappistines (women Trappists) in the 1800's. In one of her diary entries she records:

"I answer Your call. Here I am" I desire nothing, from now , but Your holy Will, and Your divine Heart will be the altar of my immolation. Yes, it is in the furnace of love that I desire to see consumed all that remains of myself, in order that I may no longer be myself but You, O Jesus. Continue in this heart, which belongs to You, the tortures of Calvary, for as long as this new victim is not immolated, Your Sacrifice will be unfinished. Your work of redemption incomplete."

Will be unfinished? Does Orthodoxy have a similar view of the ascetic life and theosis? Does theosis (or divinization) involve punitive measures such as hair shirts and "disciplines" which apparently involved little sharp pieces of metal that pricked the skin of the Trappist?

I find this disturbing and something doesn't seem quite right about it.

Comments?

PLEASE - ONLY ORTHODOX COMMENTATORS ON MY QUESTION. I AM NOT LOOKING FOR ANY COMMENTS FROM NON-ORTHODOX!!!!
It depends upon how the speaker of these words meant them. We know that God's work of redemption is complete -- the sacrifice finished. But, if the woman had in mind that spiritual "perfection" that the saints ascetically strive toward with all of their being, and she being of the attitude that until she herself is made perfect in Christ through her own suffering for His sake then the work of redemption is not finished in her, then it may be acceptable. If this is what she is expressing, then she is using some pretty novel language to do so. This sort of talk isn't found in the Orthodox Tradition, I don't believe. Divine heart references are not something most of us Eastern Christians can really relate to. I don't like it. It seems the woman is focusing too much on herself and her own suffering, and not on keeping her mind in her heart and standing therein in the presence of God, where the only proper thing that could possibly be said is "Lord have mercy on me, a sinner", and "Thank you for saving this horrible wretch".

The most problematic thing is when she asks God to "continue in this heart (hers) the suffering of Cavalry". This is not necessarily a bad request, so long as the suffering of Cavalry that she is referring to is the same sort of suffering that God suffers over His lost sheep, due to Holy Love. If, however, hers is a reference to a heart in a tumultuous and tortured state, then she is in hell, not having the "peace" of Christ in her. again, I'm not entirely comfortable with her language here. It depends on how she meant things. I find RC spirituality seems to cross a threshold into sentimentality, especially in the writings and sayings of their infamous women.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Asceticism has always involved more than fasting, such as sleeplessness, metal chains, and exposure to the cold or even hair shirts, but the reasons for wearing these are different than in Roman Catholicism.

I wouldn't say "always" ... at least not always such things as those. It does always involve more than fasting, but metal chains and pole sitting are not widespread practices.

Just wouldn't want to give folks the wrong idea. Fasting, attention to one's thoughts, and a prayer vigil sometimes can all combine to make perfectly effective asceticism without the need for more extreme measures.
 
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It probably depends? I just picked up a copy of the The Ladder of Divine Ascent but I am not even through the Introduction by Kallistos Ware yet. I would think that might help give some reasoning and views on harsher ascetical traditions and what their goals are.

The Ladder of Divine Ascent - Wikipedia
 
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ArmyMatt

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the idea that the sacrifice of Christ is unfinished is not right. the point of every ascetic discipline is to tap into that one sacrifice of Christ on the Cross. now, in some cases, there were physical disciplines that were done that were extreme, but not to punish the body or some kind of self imposed torture or punishment.
 
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Light of the East

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the idea that the sacrifice of Christ is unfinished is not right. the point of every ascetic discipline is to tap into that one sacrifice of Christ on the Cross. now, in some cases, there were physical disciplines that were done that were extreme, but not to punish the body or some kind of self imposed torture or punishment.

This is kind of what I was thinking.

It seems to me (novice that I am in everything) that ascesis should be that which releases our death grip on the pleasures of the world. We all cling to various things in the world as if to let go of them would be to let go of life itself. Various things, including ascesis, can be brought upon the soul to train it in holiness.

But it seems to me that Roman monasticism often, but not always, falls into this idea of paying a penalty to an angry God rather than turning loose the things that grip us. The things I have read about Orthodox monasticism appear to say that the ascetic practices given by a spiritual father are medicine for the soul instead of punishments for being a nasty sinner.

Just my thought on it.
 
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FireDragon76

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I think you are mistaken if you see this as being about a nun trying to placate an angry God. St. Therese of Lisieux wrote similar sentiments at times but her feelings about God were not based on fear of retribution.

And, there are Orthodox saints such as Maria of Paris whose spirituality had much less to do with abandoning bodily pleasures, cutting oneself off from earthly attachments, and more to do with hospitality and service. For her, union with God was about being present in the world and sharing in other peoples suffering for the sake of the "image of God". That has far more in common with certain forms of modern Catholic spirituality.
 
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ArmyMatt

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And, there are Orthodox saints such as Maria of Paris whose spirituality had much less to do with abandoning bodily pleasures, cutting oneself off from earthly attachments, and more to do with hospitality and service. For her, union with God was about being present in the world and sharing in other peoples suffering for the sake of the "image of God". That has far more in common with certain forms of modern Catholic spirituality.

St Mary of Paris put her life on the line constantly and died to take the place of someone in a gas chamber. she was totally detached from earthly pleasures, it just did not manifest itself the same way as a hesychast. and actually, her ascesis is the greatest kind.
 
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St Mary of Paris put her life on the line constantly and died to take the place of someone in a gas chamber. she was totally detached from earthly pleasures, it just did not manifest itself the same way as a hesychast. and actually, her ascesis is the greatest kind.

Thank you for the info. Could you elaborate, briefly, on what you mean by the bolded? What specific aspect of her ascesis (in case I misunderstand) and if you can, why it is the greatest?

Just want to be sure I understand, as I'm not sure. Thank you!
 
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ArmyMatt

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Thank you for the info. Could you elaborate, briefly, on what you mean by the bolded? What specific aspect of her ascesis (in case I misunderstand) and if you can, why it is the greatest?

Just want to be sure I understand, as I'm not sure. Thank you!

St John Chrysostom (I think) says it is a greater miracle to feed the hungry than to raise the dead. the test of love for God and neighbor is suffering and dying for them. Matthew 25 shows the test for the saved is love. the idea that St Mary is more like Western monasticism is just false.
 
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I have two books about Mother Maria.

Mother Maria smoked cigarettes and she had problems being punctual in attending services. She enjoyed talking to people. In addition, she wrote that at the Last Judgment she was not going to be judged by her asceticism. If that's detachment from earthly pleasures, it certainly isn't how hesychastic spirituality is often presented.

Also, it's not absolutely certain how she died. She may have taken the place of a Jewish prisoner or she may have simply been selected that day. Taking the place of a Jew would have been something she would have been willing to do, however, I have no doubt.
 
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~Anastasia~

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St John Chrysostom (I think) says it is a greater miracle to feed the hungry than to raise the dead. the test of love for God and neighbor is suffering and dying for them. Matthew 25 shows the test for the saved is love. the idea that St Mary is more like Western monasticism is just false.
Thank you. :)
 
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I have two books about Mother Maria.

Mother Maria smoked cigarettes and she had problems being punctual in attending services. She enjoyed talking to people. In addition, she wrote that at the Last Judgment she was not going to be judged by her asceticism. If that's detachment from earthly pleasures, it certainly isn't how hesychastic spirituality is often presented.

Also, it's not absolutely certain how she died. She may have taken the place of a Jewish prisoner or she may have simply been selected that day. Taking the place of a Jew would have been something she would have been willing to do, however, I have no doubt.

I also have books on her life and her collected writings. and I said earlier her detachment was not like that of the hesychasts in practice, but was the same in spirit and greater to an extent. and just because she doesn't think she was ascetic that doesn't mean she wasn't. saints typically don't see their virtues the way the rest of us do.
 
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