Does John 17:15 Destroy Pretribulation Rapture?

[-57]

Days means age? Then why doesn't it say "age"?

Some translations do.
The NASB..."But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age."

 

[LastSeven]

Why would that matter?

It matters because death is the result of sin, and so if there's death, there's sin and sorrow and pain and suffering.

So why do you cling to this idea that Satan being locked up means paradise on earth? It clearly doesn't mean that at all. Scripture is clear that there will still be death during the thousand year reign. So that means there will be sin and pain and suffering also. So saying that we can't be in the thousand year reign now because there's still death and pain and sin and suffering is an illogical argument.

 

[LastSeven]

Some translations do.
The NASB..."But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age."

So do you think the NIV and KJV translators were wrong to say "the end of days"?

 

[-57]

Days means age? Then why doesn't it say "age"?

It matters because death is the result of sin, and so if there's death, there's sin and sorrow and pain and suffering.

So why do you cling to this idea that Satan being locked up means paradise on earth? It clearly doesn't mean that at all. Scripture is clear that there will still be death during the thousand year reign. So that means there will be sin and pain and suffering also. So saying that we can't be in the thousand year reign now because there's still death and pain and sin and suffering is an illogical argument.

I never made that argument..you seem to make it for me.

I said Satan isn't locked up...which means we are not in the thousand year reign.

 

[-57]

So do you think the NIV and KJV translators were wrong to say "the end of days"?

Here's the word used....you tell me.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

My interpretation meshes perfectly with all of scripture (though maybe not with the way you understand scripture). The wording clearly says the righteous and the wicked are resurrected at the same time. I don't know why you're trying so hard to deny that.

The first resurrection is not a physical resurrection at all. Paul said that we died with him and we were also resurrected with him. If you have new life in Christ, then you've already been resurrected.

There's only one physical resurrection and that happens on the last day, which is the day of judgment, and it applies to every single person that's ever lived.

Only one resurrection?
Revelation 20 King James Version (KJV)
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

1+1=2 in my book There is two resurrections in these verses

 

[LastSeven]

Only one resurrection?

Only one physical resurrection.

 

[LastSeven]

I never made that argument..you seem to make it for me.

I said Satan isn't locked up...which means we are not in the thousand year reign.

Right. You said Satan isn't locked up. So I'm assuming that you feel that way because the world is still in a terrible state. Was I wrong to assume that? Or do you have a different reason for believing Satan isn't locked up?

 

[LastSeven]

Here's the word used....you tell me.

I already told you what I believe. When Jesus said he would resurrect us on the last day, he meant exactly what he said, and exactly what's written. It's you who seems to want to change the wording.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Only one physical resurrection.

Ok I agree with you "only one physical resurrection" for the righteous and one for the wicked.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Only one physical resurrection.

Give me precept upon precept, line upon line from the Bible to support this believe of yours. Convince me

 

[Biblewriter]

It doesn't mean that at all. Think about it. Will there still be death during the thousand years?

Yes, there will be marriage, birth, and death. But the death will be rare.


"And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, 'We will eat our own food and wear our own apparel; Only let us be called by your name, To take away our reproach.'" Isaiah 4:1

"And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof." Zechariah 8:5


"No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed." Isaiah 65:20

 

[LastSeven]

Yes, there will be marriage, birth, and death. But the death will be rare.


"And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, 'We will eat our own food and wear our own apparel; Only let us be called by your name, To take away our reproach.'" Isaiah 4:1

"And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof." Zechariah 8:5


"No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed." Isaiah 65:20

So if there's death, there's sin. Correct?

 

[jerry kelso]

Wow. You really haven't read your entire Bible have you? Look, I'll make it easy for you.

Ephesians 2
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people

It doesn't get much clearer than that.

lastseven,

1. Ephesians 2:12; That at the time ye were with out Christ being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenant of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.

2. In the old testament gentiles were proselyted into judaism into the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenant of promise because the gentiles had no covenant themselves such as Israel and that is why they had to be proselyted into Judaism.
Today, the church is jews and gentiles alike and gentiles are not proselyted into Judaism.
Jews and gentiles both have the same covenant called the New Covenant of which the church is comprised of.
You don't have a clue about context and wording and obviously about history.

3. Citizens spiritually together in the church has nothing to do with the Nation of Israel's calling being separate from the church in the physical KOH at the Head of the Nations. Isaiah 2:2-4.

4. Once again you have no clue of context or history about the unconditional covenants of Abraham and David that pertain specifically to the nation of physical, spiritual Israel and not physical, spiritual gentiles.

5. The Abrahamic and Davidic covenants that pertain to Israel are both unconditional but conditional on obedience. Isaiah 66:7-9 shows that part of Israel will be birthed before the actual travail of Jacob's trouble and that will be the 144,000 and that they will be a nation born in one day at the end of the tribulation when there nation is almost annihilated and that Zion will travail and bring forth her children verses 9-21 which is about the KOH.

6. So once again you are misrepresenting the meaning of words because of misunderstanding the context. Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

Well, you know, given the fact that there are five other examples in the new testament that also say we are resurrected on the last day, there's no reason to think "rise at the end of days" isn't talking about the same thing. Of course if you've stricken those verses from your Bible then I guess you can change Daniel 12 to mean whatever you want also.

lastseven,

I have stricken no words and from most of what I've seen you seem to use a different version from KJV. Now I am not a KJV only but sometimes the translations leave out certain important things and waters down the true translations.
Rise at the end of the days is not what it says. It says STAND IN THY LOT AT THE END OF THE DAYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This means Daniel has a specific position and purpose at the end of days. It has nothing to do with being resurrected bodily.
You need to quit pigeon hole the word of God. STAND IN THY LOT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING RESURRECTED PHYSICALLY OR SPIRITUALLY. THAT IS PERFECTLY CLEAR. JERRY KELSO

 

[-57]

I already told you what I believe. When Jesus said he would resurrect us on the last day, he meant exactly what he said, and exactly what's written. It's you who seems to want to change the wording.

OK, You have your view...stop forcing it on people.

 

[-57]

So if there's death, there's sin. Correct?

Yup. It kinda shows you that Satan isn't responsible for all of our sins. Even when he is removed mankind still is a bunch of sinners.

 

[LastSeven]

lastseven,

I have stricken no words and from most of what I've seen you seem to use a different version from KJV. Now I am not a KJV only but sometimes the translations leave out certain important things and waters down the true translations.
Rise at the end of the days is not what it says. It says STAND IN THY LOT AT THE END OF THE DAYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This means Daniel has a specific position and purpose at the end of days. It has nothing to do with being resurrected bodily.
You need to quit pigeon hole the word of God. STAND IN THY LOT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING RESURRECTED PHYSICALLY OR SPIRITUALLY. THAT IS PERFECTLY CLEAR. JERRY KELSO

And yet you continue to ignore all the other references I posted.

 

[LastSeven]

Yup. It kinda shows you that Satan isn't responsible for all of our sins. Even when he is removed mankind still is a bunch of sinners.

Whether or not we need Satan to sin is not the point. The point is, do you expect the thousand year reign to be paradise on earth, or do you expect it to be the same as it is today?

 

[LastSeven]

OK, You have your view...stop forcing it on people.

?? What do you mean "stop forcing it on people"?? We're having a discussion are we not? Did you not ask me to tell you my view?

You can step away from this conversation if you want. That's what most people do when they have no way to explain the scriptures that contradict their beliefs. Up to you.