Job8

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So - - - if Jesus means He will resurrect His bride church "immediately after the tribulation of those days" > Matthew 24:29-31 < then this is good, if this is what Jesus means.
Matthew 24 has nothing to do with the Bride of Christ -- the Church. Yet too many Christians fall into that trap. Indeed the Church was not even a reality at that time, and the apostles were focused on Israel and the future of Israel when the Olivet Discourse was presented.
 
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Job8

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Let me ask you this. Do you think "the rapture" and the resurrection are two separate events? Or are they the same event?
Technically it should be called The Resurrection/Rapture of the Saints. It all occurs at the same time, and in a nanosecond.
 
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Biblewriter

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The pretrib doctrine has become one of the most divisive among Christians.

If you dare to reveal the source of the doctrine, you will be condemned by those who cannot let go of it.

At one time Benjamin Newton and John Darby worked together as leaders of the Plymouth Brethren.
After Darby adopted the "Secret Rapture" doctrine of the Irvingites and divided scripture into that for the Jews and that for the Church, Newton could not accept Darby's new doctrine and came under personal attack by Darby. That same spirit is alive and well on this forum and in churches throughout our nation.

A local Baptist pastor had to start part of his training all over again with another pastor, after his supervising pastor learned he did not hold the pretrib viewpoint. He was attacked in the same way that Darby attacked Newton.

If you really want the truth take a look at the following, but be prepared to be called a liar by those who are promoting the doctrine John Darby brought to America about the time of the Civil War.



http://www.leftbehindorledastray.com/

.

The fact that this claim is blatantly false has been repeatedly proved in this forum, but it keeps popping up.
 
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com7fy8

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Matthew 24 has nothing to do with the Bride of Christ -- the Church. Yet too many Christians fall into that trap. Indeed the Church was not even a reality at that time, and the apostles were focused on Israel and the future of Israel when the Olivet Discourse was presented.
But it is talking about times when the church will be a reality. And I notice how there isn't anything in that chapter which says that none of it is about the church. It does say what Jesus will do with His "elect" . . . not His "Jews". But ones insist that it is talking about Jews, though He says "elect". So, do you have a source . . . in scripture . . . or do you accept sources elsewhere?
 
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com7fy8

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Why don't you compare Matthew 24 with John 14? That should be good for starters.
I just read them both. And they have many good things to say.

Among others, it is clear that Jesus will come back.

And Jesus gives us His own peace > John 14:27. And He has sent the Holy Spirit.

His peace in the Holy Spirit is almighty in power to "guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus" > Philippians 4:6-7.

So, whether we go through a tribulation or not, Jesus has guaranteed us His own peace which is able to keep our hearts and minds, no matter what Satanic people do. And Paul says we are "called in one body" to be ruled in God's peace. He does not say there will be a bride body and another body > "there is neither Jew nor Greek" in Jesus < Galatians 4:28.
And He says that when the end times things are getting active, those in "Judea" will need to flee into the mountains. But He does not say what others in other parts of Israel or the world need to do . . . He only mentions "Judea". And I suppose there will be members of His church bride who are living or visiting in Judea, at that time. So, this could apply to certain members of His bride, if they are "in Judea", at that time.

He also says there will be two in a field, and one will be taken. He does not say two on a mountain, but in a field. So, I suppose He is talking about two different times, or different areas and not only "in Judea". Or, though He says to flee, ones will not flee, but ones will be taken. He does not go into detail about this. And it seems to me that the Bible doesn't. But I see a lot which can help us to be ready.

If there are people who were Jews and they have trusted in Jesus, where "there is neither Jew nor Greek", I understand they will be in the bride church of Jesus. And ones of the bride of Jesus, then, could be "in Judea".

So, maybe instead of trying to sort through and make sense of what I notice, you could just share what you get by comparing Matthew 24 with John 14 :)
 
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Job8

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So, maybe instead of trying to sort through and make sense of what I notice, you could just share what you get by comparing Matthew 24 with John 14
OK so let's focus on the key issue -- the Rapture. Please note the contrast, and then ask yourself "Why"? Is it not because these are two separate groups separated by time and circumstance?

THE LORD JESUS CHRIST COMES PERSONALLY FOR HIS SAINTS AT THE RAPTURE
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (John 14:3).

CHRIST SENDS HIS ANGELS TO GATHER THE ELECT AT HIS SECOND COMING
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matthew 24:31).
 
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com7fy8

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CHRIST SENDS HIS ANGELS TO GATHER THE ELECT AT HIS SECOND COMING
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matthew 24:31).
What you say is clear; I offer I understand how you are relating these scriptures to support pre-trib > you seem to be saying that there will be a pre-trib Rapture in which Jesus Himself, without His gathering angels, will receive ones to Himself; but in the after-tribulation gathering, He will have angels gathering the "elect" . . . if I understand you right. But I can see there is more than one way ones can understand the combining of these scriptures.

Pre-tribbers may have been taught that we will just vanish from the earth, without anyone seeing Jesus so they can know what became of us. But I do not know of scripture which clearly says this or means this. But if ones have been taught to assume this, Job8, then they can be groomed to assume that each of your quotes must be talking about different events. But their interpretation could be based on context of what they have been taught to assume, if no scripture actually spells this out.

In comparing your quotes, I consider > subject to evaluation, since it is me :amen: >

About Matthew 24:29-31 >

Yes, Jesus will send His angels to gather His "elect". But just before Jesus says this, He does say, "they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven". "And", Jesus says, He will send His angels . . . after He has first come and they have seen Him, it looks to me.

I understand, then, that the order will be that Jesus will appear, then the angels will gather His "elect" to Him who will be there to then receive the "elect" to Himself. So, I can see that both quotes can be talking about different aspects of the same event. One says Jesus will receive us to Himself. And the other can mean He will use His holy angels to gather us to Him so He can receive us to Himself. And Hebrews 1:14 says the angels are "ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation". It will be good how Jesus includes His holy angels so they have joy in ministering for us to be gathered to Jesus . . . after all the angels have done.

Now, this I can see without trying to use these scriptures to prove or disprove pre- or post-trib. But both scriptures certainly can fit with what Matthew 24 says will happen post-trib.

Also, not to be only trying to prove who is right about beliefs, I see from this how Jesus shares honor with those who serve Him. So, He gives to His angles the honor of gathering His "elect"; the angels have been loyal and faithful to Him; so Jesus has them sharing in this special gathering. Jesus does not do things all by Himself. And He includes us, also, as family in doing His special blessing.
 
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4x4toy

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When Jesus comes back and we meet him in the sky , where is he headed to ? Back to Heaven or on the way to the Mount of Olives to bring the New Jerusalem and destroy his enemies ? I've heard different opinions .. Will that begin the 1000 reign where we live transformed then the great and final judgment ?
 
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Job8

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But just before Jesus says this, He does say, "they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven".
The reference to *clouds* is not condensed water-vapor. These are clouds of saints and angels. And when He comes with those clouds, He is greeted with UNIVERSAL MOURNING.

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7).

On the other hand, the Resurrection/Rapture denotes THE JOY OF THE RIGHTEOUS, hence it is called the Blessed Hope. So Christ must first come FOR His saints at the Rapture before He can come WITH His saints at His Second Coming.
 
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jerry kelso

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I think this is one verse that destroys the pre-trib rapture doctrine, but there are others. Maybe if this one bothers you enough to ask the question, seeing them all together will bother you enough to change your mind.

Let me ask you this. Do you think "the rapture" and the resurrection are two separate events? Or are they the same event?

lastseven,

1. The rapture of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is composed of the dead in Christ and Christ bringing them from heaven and meeting the living earthly people from the earth in the clouds. This rapture is a resurrection of which Paul showed what was a mystery 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 to the old testament people for they had no knowledge of the church.

2. The second resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 are only those who are a part of the blessed dead of Revelation 14:13 who didn't take the mark of the beast and were martyred and are seen in Heaven in Revelation 15:1-2 which is before the 7 vials are poured out Revelation 16:1. This is the last of any believers resurrected.
The souls under the altar were martyrs from the first half of the tribulation that were told to wait for those who were later be killed for Christ and that was the blessed dead.

3. The seals, trumpets and vials are consecutive one after the other.
So the rapture of Revelation 20:4-6 are only the dead in Christ and Christ is not bringing them back from Heaven to meet living saints for the living saints are already in Heaven and coming out of Heaven with his saints including those resurrected dead of Revelation 15:1-2 and 20:4-6 which are the same. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is not the same as Revelation 15:1-2 and 20:4-6.

4. John 17:15 was talking about the disciples in their day because he knew they would be persecuted like him and would be martyred outside of John and they were.
Matthew 10:16-20 was in the context of the KOH that Christ was offering to the jewish nation at that time that they rejected in Matthew 10:1-15. But the disciples were not persecuted in the manner of these verses for the most part in the 60's A.D. before Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 A.D.

5. Verses 21-23 is prophetic to the time of the KOH in the future concerning the jewish nation being persecuted and restored.

6. These verses prove that the KOH will have the jewish nation at the head of the nations and not the church of today.

7. It also proves that the spiritual jew being gentiles as well is only true spiritually but not physically and not taking their place in the KOH.

8. The last day was an old testament doctrine of the resurrection John 11:24, Hebrews 6:2.

9. Jesus knew the jews would reject him for it was prophesied they would and he knew they would Isaiah 53:18; John 1:11.

10. There will be a last day of jews killed that will not take the mark of the beast and will be raptured before the Wrath of God on the beast kingdom Revelation 15:1-2; Revelation 16:1.

11. So there is no resurrection of dead in Christ coming from Heaven with Christ and living believers coming from earth and meeting them in the sky as a post trib rapture as is shown in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

12. The resurrection of the dead in Revelation 15:1-2 and Revelation 20:4-6 are the same but is separate from 1 Thessalonians 15:-17 according to the context of the scriptures and plain scriptures and by comparison. Jerry kelso
 
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LastSeven

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lastseven,

1. The rapture of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is composed of the dead in Christ and Christ bringing them from heaven and meeting the living earthly people from the earth in the clouds. This rapture is a resurrection of which Paul showed what was a mystery 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 to the old testament people for they had no knowledge of the church.

2. The second resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 are only those who are a part of the blessed dead of Revelation 14:13 who didn't take the mark of the beast and were martyred and are seen in Heaven in Revelation 15:1-2 which is before the 7 vials are poured out Revelation 16:1. This is the last of any believers resurrected.
The souls under the altar were martyrs from the first half of the tribulation that were told to wait for those who were later be killed for Christ and that was the blessed dead.

3. The seals, trumpets and vials are consecutive one after the other.
So the rapture of Revelation 20:4-6 are only the dead in Christ and Christ is not bringing them back from Heaven to meet living saints for the living saints are already in Heaven and coming out of Heaven with his saints including those resurrected dead of Revelation 15:1-2 and 20:4-6 which are the same. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is not the same as Revelation 15:1-2 and 20:4-6.

4. John 17:15 was talking about the disciples in their day because he knew they would be persecuted like him and would be martyred outside of John and they were.
Matthew 10:16-20 was in the context of the KOH that Christ was offering to the jewish nation at that time that they rejected in Matthew 10:1-15. But the disciples were not persecuted in the manner of these verses for the most part in the 60's A.D. before Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 A.D.

5. Verses 21-23 is prophetic to the time of the KOH in the future concerning the jewish nation being persecuted and restored.

6. These verses prove that the KOH will have the jewish nation at the head of the nations and not the church of today.

7. It also proves that the spiritual jew being gentiles as well is only true spiritually but not physically and not taking their place in the KOH.

8. The last day was an old testament doctrine of the resurrection John 11:24, Hebrews 6:2.

9. Jesus knew the jews would reject him for it was prophesied they would and he knew they would Isaiah 53:18; John 1:11.

10. There will be a last day of jews killed that will not take the mark of the beast and will be raptured before the Wrath of God on the beast kingdom Revelation 15:1-2; Revelation 16:1.

11. So there is no resurrection of dead in Christ coming from Heaven with Christ and living believers coming from earth and meeting them in the sky as a post trib rapture as is shown in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

12. The resurrection of the dead in Revelation 15:1-2 and Revelation 20:4-6 are the same but is separate from 1 Thessalonians 15:-17 according to the context of the scriptures and plain scriptures and by comparison. Jerry kelso
Sounds like you're forgetting about the resurrection of the wicked.
 
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jerry kelso

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Sounds like you're forgetting about the resurrection of the wicked.

lastseven,

1. The rapture of believers and the resurrection of believers are all the resurrections since Christ and the first fruits down to the tribulation saints who don't take the mark of the beast. This has nothing to do with the resurrection of the wicked.

2. Revelation 20:5 shows that the wicked will be resurrected 1000 years after the last resurrection of believers that concludes the first resurrection. It is called the first resurrection because of the out from among the wicked dead which means the first resurrection is composed only of believers though resurrected at different times in life.

3. The second resurrection is the only resurrection of the wicked. They are resurrected and judged at one time 1000 years after the end of the first resurrection of believers of Revelation 14:1-2 and Revelation 20:4-6 which are the same company.

4. The resurrection of the wicked being 1000 years later shows that the KOH for 1000 years is real and that the Satan is bound in the bottomless pit so not to deceive and then is loosed after for a season to deceive one more time those who were not true believers in the KOH's 1000 year reign but lived according to the civil law and they will be destroyed and then resurrected with the rest of the wicked at the GWTJ. This is right before the New Heaven and the New Earth of which the KOH, this earthly sphere will be in perfect harmony with the KOG where God is all in all. Jerry kelso
 
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LastSeven

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You'd better check again Jerry. The first resurrection is indeed only for believers, but the second resurrection is for both believers and non-believers.

Acts 24:15
and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Daniel 12:5
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
 
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jerry kelso

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You'd better check again Jerry. The first resurrection is indeed only for believers, but the second resurrection is for both believers and non-believers.

Acts 24:15
and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Daniel 12:5
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

lastseven,

1. It just mentions that there will be a resurrection for the righteous and for the wicked.
For the righteous will be everlasting life and the sinners shame and everlasting contempt.

2. If they were at the same time then Revelation 20:5 would be incorrect but it is not incorrect and you have no proof to back up your claim with any other scripture that is in harmony with that except your own perception and reasoning and understanding which is clearly wrong.

3. You need to learn context and how to reconcile the scriptures together properly instead of assuming because two separate things are mentioned (in this case resurrection of the righteous and wicked) are at the same time. Jerry Kelso
 
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LastSeven

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lastseven,

1. It just mentions that there will be a resurrection for the righteous and for the wicked.
For the righteous will be everlasting life and the sinners shame and everlasting contempt.

2. If they were at the same time then Revelation 20:5 would be incorrect but it is not incorrect and you have no proof to back up your claim with any other scripture that is in harmony with that except your own perception and reasoning and understanding which is clearly wrong.

3. You need to learn context and how to reconcile the scriptures together properly instead of assuming because two separate things are mentioned (in this case resurrection of the righteous and wicked) are at the same time. Jerry Kelso
Maybe you didn't notice the wording. Let me help you out.

Acts 24:15
and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

See that? A single resurrection of both. Plain English. If the author meant there were two separate resurrections for the righteous and the wicked, then he would've said so. Instead he said there is "a" resurrection of "both".
 
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BABerean2

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1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.



G3952

παρουσία
parousia
par-oo-see'-ah
From the present participle of G3918; a being near, that is, advent (often, return; specifically of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physical aspect: - coming, presence.

.
 
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jerry kelso

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Maybe you didn't notice the wording. Let me help you out.

Acts 24:15
and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

See that? A single resurrection of both. Plain English. If the author meant there were two separate resurrections for the righteous and the wicked, then he would've said so. Instead he said there is "a" resurrection of "both".

lastseven,

1. Acts 24:15; And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

2. This is the KJV and whatever you are using is the same meaning a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

3. It never says that both are at the same time and that is not the structural phrase either.

4. A resurrection of both means that there are two classes in a resurrection but it doesn't denote at the same time.

5. Also, if it were true then Revelation 15:1-2 and Revelation 20:4-6 would be wrong because all these people were martyred. There are no living beings being resurrected with them! That is plain english and it is context and this context has to harmonize with other scriptures.

6. The only way that you make it right is because you believe in a post trib rapture in which you have to build up a straw man from scriptures that are from your perception which is not biblical wording, context, comparison or in plain english or plain sight and that does not reconcile with other scriptures. Your assessment is a contradiction with all these so I am sorry but you are wrong and need to learn plain english. Jerry Kelso
 
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