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Does it hurt your heart to know?

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Bipolargirl, Mar 25, 2019.

  1. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    The fire eternal and those already immortal angels we can wonder may continue there, but Christ said human souls there "perish", and to fear God because he can "destroy both body and soul"....

    So, you see, the "second death" for human souls that have not gained eternal life...likely means exactly what the words sound like to our ears. An eternal punishment, irreversible, final death.

    Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

    Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death--the lake of fire.

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
     
  2. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    Many will turn, and none will be judged by what they did not know, but fairly instead. Romans c2, v6-16; 4:15; 5:13

    Christ even brought the gospel to the dead, the " spirits in prison " (1rst Peter 3). Some think this may include every soul not having heard the gospel. To reject Him is to reject Love itself. Someone rejecting Love itself cannot be good to have in eternal life. You'd honestly not want them there at that point once some have rejected the very heart of what is Good, Love itself.

    Those who do want to love others generally (that feel all people should be loved) may be very ready to hear the actual real words of Christ, instead of the misperception, the wrong version they have.

    God is love. Those who dont love don't know God. Those who do love their neighbors, love people in general, they may be good soil to hear the actual real words Christ said, so unexpected and amazing. God resists the proud, but gives Grace to the humble.
     
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  3. Kerensa

    Kerensa Well-Known Member

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    Ummm, no. Christian universalism acknowledges that there IS a problem and that God is powerful enough AND good enough to solve it completely by saving and freeing ALL through Christ. I'm not going to keep on and on arguing about it, but once you do manage to break free of the fear that you'll go to eternal torment if you don't believe in eternal torment, there are plenty of resources out there to explain it in much more detail. :)

    (Just to re-emphasise, this is Christian universalism — i.e. everyone will ultimately be saved through Christ. That's totally different from any notions of "all paths lead to heaven" or "it doesn't matter what you do in your life, since you're going to be saved anyway" — completely different. Again, it helps to read up on it.)
     
  4. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    There is no getting out of the lake of Fire at the end.

    11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

    5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

    6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

    If your name is not written in the Lamb's book of Life, then your fate is to be doomed to the eternal second death,

    The Glory of the New Jerusalem
    22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the [m]glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it.

    27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

    All the liars and unholy, unsanctified defilers. the abominations, wont be getting in to the Master's house, they remain in the lake of fire.
     
  5. Messerve

    Messerve Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps my Jude reference was a little too controversial to support my argument. I was referencing commentaries to get a better understanding of that passage, but commentaries aren't the Bible of course. The Sodom and Gomorrah reference may have been using the fire that consumed Sodom and Gomorrah as a way of describing God's wrath and the fire of hell, not that the fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah was eternal, because it obviously isn't there now. Here is what one commentary said:

    As here used, it cannot mean that the fires which consumed Sodom and Gomorrah were literally eternal, or were kept always burning, for that was not true. The expression seems to denote, in this connection, two things:

    (1)That the destruction of the cities of the plain, with their inhabitants, was as entire and perpetual as if the fires had been always burning - the consumption was absolute and enduring - the sinners were wholly cut off, and the cities forever rendered desolate; and,


    (2)that, in its nature and duration, this was a striking emblem of the destruction which will come upon the ungodly. I do not see that the apostle here means to affirm that those particular sinners who dwelt in Sodom would be punished forever, for his expressions do not directly affirm that, and his argument does not demand it; but still the “image” in his mind, in the destruction of those cities, was clearly that of the utter desolation and ruin of which this was the emblem; of the perpetual destruction of the wicked, like that of the cities of the plain. If this had not been the case, there was no reason why he should have used the word “eternal” - meaning here “perpetual” - since, if in his mind there was no image of future punishment, all that the argument would have demanded was the simple statement that they were cut off by fire.


    The passage, then, cannot be used to prove that the particular dwellers in Sodom will be punished forever - whatever may be the truth on that point; but that there is a place of eternal punishment, of which that was a striking emblem. The meaning is, that the case was one which furnished a demonstration of the fact that God will punish sin; that this was an example of the punishment which God sometimes inflicts on sinners in this world, and a type of that eternal punishment which will be inflicted in the next.


    God is infinite, eternal and perfect and our sins against Him are infinitely evil consequently, so just to make sure we're on the same page, an eternal "death" would actually be deserved. The whole reason Jesus was the one who had to die, was because no death of an earthly being would have ever been perfect enough to satisfy the impending wrath of God. Only Jesus, being God in flesh, could do that. That points to the infinite evil of our sins and is extraordinarily humbling to realize that He would do that for us. So, all that just to say the viewpoint of eternal punishment is not "garbage" as you so poetically put it.

    You didn't really address Matthew 25:46. I should have just pointed out the whole parable of Matthew 25: 31-46. The phrase "eternal punishment" is mentioned twice. It follows right after the parable you referenced where it talks about "weeping and gnashing of teeth". Actually, if you read that whole chapter, it appear to be teaching in parables the progression of Jesus' return and those who aren't ready for it. First the Ten Virgins parable = people aren't ready when the time comes. Second, the '"Talents parable" = utter dismay described as weeping and gnashing of teeth. And then the "Goats and Sheep" parable which ends with eternal punishment for the goats. So you're point that the weeping and gnashing of teeth is temporary, may be true, but doesn't mean we should ignore the "eternal punishment" parable right after it. Instead, it would seem to follow that the eternal punishment follows the weeping and gnashing of teeth - that part is probably at the judgment itself as you say.

    Souls are not limited to physical bodies. I suppose you don't believe that souls are actually eternal. If they are, then an eternal destruction wouldn't be anything like destruction in the physical world. You can't compare our concept of destruction on earth with the eternal kind of destruction. None of us really know what that is like, and the description of it being a "second death" or "eternal punishment" or the idea of an eternally burning fire is just to give us an idea what it's like. There are tons of places in Scripture where we are not told flat out what something is. It's frustrating, but apparently God has chosen not to make everything black and white for us for a reason. Maybe so we actually grow through seeking to understand?

    Actually Revelations 20:10 mentions that the false prophet will also be thrown into that "lake of burning sulfur" and he is a human being. As I said before, there are places outside Revelations that mentioned people ultimately facing the same ending as Satan and his angels. So if being tormented in the lake of sulfur forever and ever is the "end" for Satan, it will be for the unrighteous, too.

    It's also worth mentioning that the same word that was used for "eternal" when referring to eternal life was the word used for "eternal punishment" in Matthew 25.

    This isn't something to divide over. You are arguing something different than Kerensa, actually, from what I understand. My main fear about your position is that it makes Jesus' work on the cross diminished to something any righteous person could have done. If our sins aren't infinitely evil in God's eyes, then why send Jesus to die? Wouldn't a prophet or a Levitical priest have been good enough? Apparently not. So if our sins are infinitely evil, then the idea of eternal suffering seems sufficient.

    I can see where you get your argument from, as there are Scriptures that refer to final destruction as something that is once and done. But there are also places that refer to it as eternal, and you can't easily argue them away.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2019
  6. Messerve

    Messerve Well-Known Member

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    Okay, I am more familiar with just plain Universalism. They have churches, too, and my neighbor died convinced he was going to Heaven just because God is good and He'd be willing to overlook the small fact that he had lived a life of total unrepentance.

    I still don't think you can get around the passages which do describe the destruction of the unrighteous. I mean, there are plenty of warnings about it and despite God's overwhelming love, I don't think everyone will be saved by any means. The whole concept of the camel going through the eye of a needle and Jesus saying few will enter by the narrow gate and many will take the wide path to destruction would seem to be nonsense, then. But I will read about your position more. I'm sure I'll have this conversation again.
     
  7. Messerve

    Messerve Well-Known Member

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    Can you point out a specific place where Jesus said loving your neighbor opened you up to receive the Gospel? He may have said that, but I'm not sure where you're referring to.

    Jesus may have proclaimed the Gospel to those who had died in the thousands of years before, but that doesn't really imply that all those souls repented, either. Maybe they did, but I don't think it's provable either.

    Loving others may open you up to the Gospel perhaps, but I honestly don't see that in the world around me... I see a lot of people with "love" and "respect" for others, but they are wholly against the Gospel and actually hate Christians and Christianity and think it's absolute foolishness to believe Jesus was God. They love you to your face and mock you behind your back. Actually, I would even argue these people are harder to reach with the Gospel sometimes, because they already consider themselves good people and don't see why they should ask forgiveness for anything.

    Now, the humble, I agree they may be good soil. I believe pride is probably the greatest barrier to the Gospel. Love, not so much, but humility for sure.
     
  8. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    That God is love and those that don't love don't know God (you may already know) is from 1rst John, which should be read through fully of course. What do we know about the good soils though? To me, the full chapter of Mark 4 NIV is needed.
    Here we are going to learn much about how faith grows, and what we are to do.

    1 Again Jesus began to teach by the lake. The crowd that gathered around him was so large that he got into a boat and sat in it out on the lake, while all the people were along the shore at the water’s edge. 2 He taught them many things by parables, and in his teaching said: 3 “Listen! A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants, so that they did not bear grain. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up, grew and produced a crop, some multiplying thirty, some sixty, some a hundred times.”

    9 Then Jesus said, “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”

    10 When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. 11 He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12 so that,

    “ ‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
    and ever hearing but never understanding;
    otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’ ”

    13 Then Jesus said to them, “Don’t you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable? 14The farmer sows the word. 15Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them. 16Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy. 17But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 18Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word; 19but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful. 20 Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a crop—some thirty, some sixty, some a hundred times what was sown.”

    21He said to them, “Do you bring in a lamp to put it under a bowl or a bed? Instead, don’t you put it on its stand? 22For whatever is hidden is meant to be disclosed, and whatever is concealed is meant to be brought out into the open. 23If anyone has ears to hear, let them hear.”

    24“Consider carefully what you hear,” he continued. “With the measure you use, it will be measured to you—and even more. 25Whoever has will be given more; whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.”

    26 He also said, “This is what the kingdom of God is like. A man scatters seed on the ground. 27 Night and day, whether he sleeps or gets up, the seed sprouts and grows, though he does not know how. 28All by itself the soil produces grain—first the stalk, then the head, then the full kernel in the head. 29As soon as the grain is ripe, he puts the sickle to it, because the harvest has come.”

    30 Again he said, “What shall we say the kingdom of God is like, or what parable shall we use to describe it? 31It is like a mustard seed, which is the smallest of all seeds on earth. 32Yet when planted, it grows and becomes the largest of all garden plants, with such big branches that the birds can perch in its shade.”

    33With many similar parables Jesus spoke the word to them, as much as they could understand. 34He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when he was alone with his own disciples, he explained everything.

    [even the last passage of the chapter can help this same question in a key, central way--]

    35That day when evening came, he said to his disciples, “Let us go over to the other side.” 36Leaving the crowd behind, they took him along, just as he was, in the boat. There were also other boats with him. 37A furious squall came up, and the waves broke over the boat, so that it was nearly swamped. 38Jesus was in the stern, sleeping on a cushion. The disciples woke him and said to him, “Teacher, don’t you care if we drown?”

    39He got up, rebuked the wind and said to the waves, “Quiet! Be still!” Then the wind died down and it was completely calm.

    40He said to his disciples, “Why are you so afraid? Do you still have no faith?”

    41They were terrified and asked each other, “Who is this? Even the wind and the waves obey him!”

    ---------------
    Let's start from the end -- this is such a familiar moment in the gospels, Christ saying to his disciples: "Do you still have no faith?" or "Do you still not believe?" or "You of little faith " or "You unbelieving generation ...how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you?..."

    Why is it in verse 12 that some are blocked, blocking themselves, from His salvation (by what part of their attitude or way), so that --

    “ ‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
    and ever hearing but never understanding;
    otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’ ”

    ?

    We have another powerful instance that comes to me about this question: why some cannot be respond to the Good News, the saving Word, and the seed grow (or some are not yet all the way there at times....) -- from Mark chapter 8:

    1 During those days another large crowd gathered. Since they had nothing to eat, Jesus called his disciples to him and said, 2“I have compassion for these people; they have already been with me three days and have nothing to eat. 3If I send them home hungry, they will collapse on the way, because some of them have come a long distance.”

    4 His disciples answered, “But where in this remote place can anyone get enough bread to feed them?”

    5 “How many loaves do you have?” Jesus asked.

    “Seven,” they replied.

    6 He told the crowd to sit down on the ground. When he had taken the seven loaves and given thanks, he broke them and gave them to his disciples to distribute to the people, and they did so. 7 They had a few small fish as well; he gave thanks for them also and told the disciples to distribute them. 8 The people ate and were satisfied. Afterward the disciples picked up seven basketfuls of broken pieces that were left over.9 About four thousand were present. After he had sent them away, 10 he got into the boat with his disciples and went to the region of Dalmanutha.

    11 The Pharisees came and began to question Jesus. To test him, they asked him for a sign from heaven. 12 He sighed deeply and said, “Why does this generation ask for a sign? Truly I tell you, no sign will be given to it.” 13 Then he left them, got back into the boat and crossed to the other side.

    14 The disciples had forgotten to bring bread, except for one loaf they had with them in the boat. 15 “Be careful,” Jesus warned them. “Watch out for the yeast of the Pharisees and that of Herod.”

    16 They discussed this with one another and said, “It is because we have no bread.”

    17 Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked them: “Why are you talking about having no bread? Do you still not see or understand? Are your hearts hardened? 18 Do you have eyes but fail to see, and ears but fail to hear? And don’t you remember? 19 When I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many basketfuls of pieces did you pick up?”

    “Twelve,” they replied.

    20“And when I broke the seven loaves for the four thousand, how many basketfuls of pieces did you pick up?”

    They answered, “Seven.”

    21He said to them, “Do you still not understand?”

    ----------

    See that connection? : Those who do not believe -- why don't they?

    This happens, He tells us here in these words, if the heart is hard.

    In order to believe, we need our heart that are soft enough.


    The hard hearted cannot believe He would love us enough to do what He is said to have done for us.


    This tells us something about what soil a person is at the moment, in that those with hard hearts are not going to respond. Yes, as you affirmed it's needed to be humble, and here we see it's going to be needed at some point, sooner or later to have softer hearts. And we know this is a very central thing, from scripture. Because God Himself said it this way:

    "...25I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws."

    and
    Ezekiel 11:19; Ezekiel 36:26; Jeremiah 31:31–34


    So, you see, those who don't yet know the true gospel, but are showing hearts soft enough to want to love all people, and to feel all should be loved, to care about others, to really care, they are part way there already. Perhaps God has been preparing them. If they are humble, and then finally hear the accurate actual gospel, not the misrepresentation so many have, then, I think that they "may" be good soil (as I wrote above), that at least they are not so hard hearted that they would have no chance to believe at all.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2019
  9. sungaunga

    sungaunga Junior Member

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    How can it not hurt our hearts? It pains me deeply to know that some of my loved ones did not know Christ when they passed.
     
  10. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    We cannot presume to know what happened in their hearts right at the end, nor even after (!) -- see post #22 on some of that. See, there are some real unknowns often. We cannot be sure about the fates of other people, because we just don't have all the parts with perfect knowledge the way God does.
     
  11. Messerve

    Messerve Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm... I agree that love for others can definitely be a precursor to opening up to the Gospel. I think we do have to be careful not to forget that the Spirit plays a huge part in that, too.

    I know many people who seemed to have a genuine love for others and to my knowledge never accepted Jesus, even though they'd been to church many times before they died and knew Christians personally. So it really has to be the Spirit who gets a person to that point ultimately, because even having love for others isn't a guarantee they'll be saved. It's kind of like "cultural Christianity" where it's a way of life to take care of each other and call yourself a Christian. It makes a nice community, but on it's own it's still lacking something very important.

    Someone once pointed out the "Christian" culture of the 1950's in the US and expressed to me their fear that instead of a spiritual revival, the US would see a "moral revival" again which could actually leave us in a worst state in the following decades. We all know how hard it is to share our faith with those who already think they're good enough to go to heaven...

    Anyway, those are just some thoughts.
     
  12. rutty99

    rutty99 Newbie

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    I don't think it's silly at all. First of all, you feel what you feel, and it's ok to own it. Second, if you haven't already done so, I'd recommend bringing it to God in prayer. He wants to hear your thoughts and feelings on this, and he's not afraid of or offended by your concerns. Bring it to Him and ask Him in earnest to help you see as He sees.

    For me personally, yes, it does hurt my heart to think about it. But I also believe in God's goodness, and I have faith that His judgement is just and that no one will end up in eternal separation unless it is absolutely right that it should be that way. I take solace in God's goodness, and this helps me press through the sadness.
     
  13. DM25

    DM25 Well-Known Member

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    "Nothing wrong"? There is nothing right about having no compassion... God calls us to have compassion on the lost. Please don't understate that or think it's optional by saying there's simply "nothing wrong" when God tells us WE NEED to have compassion on the lost and this is a command from God himself. Which means praying for people, including our enemies, and telling them about the gospel, and loving them constantly...
     
  14. DM25

    DM25 Well-Known Member

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    I question where anyone's hearts are at if you don't feel sad for people who don't get saved honestly... OP it is clear you are saved and have love in your soul, these other people I don't know. How can anyone be fine with someone going to hell? We have to pray for others always, and feeling sadness for the lost is what every saved person should do. This is a basic fruit of faith and love.
     
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  15. Gracia Singh

    Gracia Singh Newbie Supporter

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    No, it is not silly. What we can do, at the very least, is pray for folks. If we can't share Christ vocally, and least let's ask Him to bring souls to Himself, hourly.
     
  16. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Goat Whisperer Supporter

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    Yes, it's sad thinking that my best friend who is by world standards a very good person will not be in heaven unless he repents and is born again between now and the time he dies.

    In heaven there will be no pain or sorrow so we will not miss these ones.

    Best we can do is share the gospel and pray that God would give them a new heart through the Holy Spirit.

    M-Bob
     
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