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Does it hurt your heart to know?

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Bipolargirl, Mar 25, 2019.

  1. Bipolargirl

    Bipolargirl Wondering many things

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    *First, let me preface this by stating that I’m not sure I posted this in the correct area; if not, I’m sorry.*

    Does it ever break your heart to think of how many souls have not been, are not, and will not be saved?
    I sometimes think about it...and it makes me want to cry. And I know that God feels this pain more greatly than I ever could.
    While I would never pass judgment upon another’s salvation (I try not to even be presumptuous about my salvation though I have assurance) I know it is by a narrow gate we enter.
    Therefore, my question to you is: does it ever hurt your heart to know?
    Or is it silly for me to think and feel this way?
    Thank you all for your input!
     
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  2. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. (Isaiah 65:17)

    There's nothing wrong with having a little (or a lot of) compassion. One perspective that helps frame my mind is that I won't remember any of this when the New Heaven and New Earth come into effect.
     
  3. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

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    Judgment is coming for all of us.
     
  4. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? (1 Peter 4:17)
     
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  5. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

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    I'm sure you have a point but I don't know what it is.
     
  6. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    For those born again by the Holy Spirit, the Judgment is already here.

    So yeah, totally coming.
     
  7. Bipolargirl

    Bipolargirl Wondering many things

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    Yes, I know...I was just saying how it sometimes hurts my heart to see others who don’t care or don’t want salvation...if that makes sense.
     
  8. devin553344

    devin553344 Enlighten our lives dear Lord

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    Well usually you can't have empathy unless it's something you've experienced yourself. At least I think that's what they said in counseling sessions I had. Empathy is something you can gain from the Holy Spirit I believe.

    But I'm bipolar schizophrenic. And sometimes I cry for people and then later am like "What was wrong with me"? So Yeah, I'm a little complicated.
     
  9. Bipolargirl

    Bipolargirl Wondering many things

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    I am bipolar 1 and was also diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder...I completely understand how complicated it can be.
     
  10. Kerensa

    Kerensa Well-Known Member

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    Not at all, friend, since the doctrine of eternal damnation is simply NOT TRUE. Praise God! :clap:

    A couple of good sites with plenty of info:

    The Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Hope Beyond Hell
     
  11. Bipolargirl

    Bipolargirl Wondering many things

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    But what about people who get the mark of the beast? It states that they will be forever in the lake of fire. Jesus states that hell is a place with much gnashing of teeth.
     
  12. Kerensa

    Kerensa Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't say "forever" — that's a persistent mistranslation. Have a read of some of the info.

    Not wanting to debate with you or anyone, by the way — just wanting to assure you and anyone else who's disturbed by the traditional teachings about hell (who wouldn't be?!) that that's not God's plan or will at all. :glowingstar::glowingstar:
     
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  13. Loyce KG

    Loyce KG Everyone MUST hear the gospel of Christ!

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    Never thought about it that way though it's accurate. My heart breaks for those lost souls who have not believed yet or heard the gospel. That motivates me to share the gospel with every soul I meet on a daily basis. We plant, and water, God gives the increase.
    For me that's enough!

    Shalom
     
  14. Messerve

    Messerve Active Member

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    How about 2 Thessalonians 1? And Matthew 25? The unrighteous will be thrown into the same fire prepared for Satan and his angels.

    The Greek word for eternal in Matthew 25:46 is aiōnion which translates as "perpetual".

    Your "Hope Beyond Hell" link is quite interesting. I find the reference to Luke 12:57 especially interesting because it does not at all instruct us to "Judge for yourself what is right"! The context of that whole passage was about settling disputes out of court... Context is very important to interpreting Scriptures.

    If everyone ultimately goes to Heaven regardless of how they lived, then why did Jesus waste his breath with parables and teachings? What does the Great Commission have to do with anything? Just telling people "Hey, you're already saved doing what you're doing. So keep it up!" That doesn't sound like a reason for them to be persecuted : Hebrews 11:37

    An unsaved friend or relative dying never knowing Jesus is a horrible thing, I'm sure. I pray I don't experience that personally, but I'm sure I will some day. I'm know many Christians have. Have you ever talked to them about how they dealt with that? It should make as feel the urgency to share our faith more boldly, not to conjure up alternative theologies that make us feel better about God. That's twisting the Truth, not dealing with it.

    Teaching the reality of Hell is by no means a hindrance to the Gospel! If everyone is good as they are, then they will trample over Jesus and laugh about it. If they believe Hell is real, they will have a healthy fear of God - a fear that is justified concerning who God really is as taught in the Scriptures! They should be afraid of Him and His judgment to a degree. That's the impetus to get right with Him again and the only way to ever find real peace while on earth.

    I'm curious about all the joy you refer to... Is it joy, or more of a situation like "ignorance is bliss"? Denying the Truth can make us feel free and happy, but the paradox is that it is actually a prison far worse than those who suffer as slaves of Christ and await glory in Heaven, having proved themselves faithful.

    Who is this God you praise? I fear it's not the same God I know, who's Word is like a double-edged sword, judging the thoughts and attitudes of the heart! Does any of that even matter if we're going to heaven regardless? The whole Bible is a burden that we can gladly do away with, then.

    Why did Jesus even die on the cross? As a mere example of humility? Was that all? Were prophets not a good enough example that God himself had to show us what humility was like? Does humility have to be proven by dying in one of the most excruciatingly painful and humiliating ways imaginable? I don't think so. You could show it with a whole lot less than that!

    There are so many things wrong with Universalism and what you're teaching here is heresy, pure and simple.

    I pray that you find your way out of this beautiful fog and come face to face with the humbling brilliance of God's overwhelming perfection and universal sovereignty.
     
  15. Messerve

    Messerve Active Member

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    Well, the main point is we really don't know. There may be people we're fairly confident about, but we just don't know.

    So I take consolation in the fact that I really don't know anyone's heart. I can't say what their thoughts were or what decision they may have made just at the end. I believe the mind remains functioning for a very short time after the body has essentially died. So there may be the comprehension that one has died and the desperation of that could perhaps finally convince many people to make a plead to Jesus for their soul in those last seconds. I don't know... This is why it's so important to plant seeds. We simply don't know how the things we say may stick with a person for the rest of their life and perhaps come back to mind in those last moments.
     
  16. Kerensa

    Kerensa Well-Known Member

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    I have come face to face with just that, friend, even if only a little. I pray you do too. But we all will one day, don't worry.
     
  17. SarahsKnight

    SarahsKnight Jesus Christ is this Knight's truth.

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    Actually, He simply said that there would be gnashing of teeth (and admittedly in one of the four gospels at least He did also say "in that place there will be gnashing of teeth", though I don't remember the verse number of which gospel it was offhand, but I assume it is familiar to most), however not only did He never say at any point that the gnashing of teeth itself would last eternally, but it is also self-evident in other parts of the Bible where the expression is used is that the gnashing of teeth is used as an expression of anger rather than pain, which makes perfect sense why Jesus would use this phrase as indication of what the unsaved may or will feel at the time of judgment, not what they feel in any kind of afterlife. In fact, the unsaved will not see life ... period (John 3:36). There is actually very little evidence in Scripture that the unsaved also live forever as well as the saved do, albeit in some kind of misery or pain instead of bliss and safety, regardless of how much you may here of hell as some kind of Dante's Inferno deal from the pulpit. Nowhere in Scripture is it said that all men have immortal souls that live forever one way or another, even after death on Earth. In fact, 90% of the time any verse in the Bible speaks of the seeming ultimate fate of those who will not believe in Christ, terms such as destruction, perish, burned up, consumed, etc. are involved - and their plain meaning points to an utter end of life, a literal destruction, not a conscious eternity in pain. (It's not as though literal everlasting destruction as we conditionalist Christians see it is such a great thing, anyway, even as it may be more merciful than the sadistic notion of eternally ongoing conscious torture.)

    But you, Miss @Bipolargirl l, of course I understand your sentiments and feelings on this. Regardless of what you might believe the nature of hell or the ultimate fate of the unsaved to be, it is good to have a heart for Christ and sharing the Good News with others who may not yet understand and believe, to let them know that there is forgiveness of sins and our life on Earth isn't all there has to be. But have mercy on them as much as you can even as you speak tot hem about the Gospel or pray for their salvation, for remember, we who believe were ourselves once just like them. So we cannot judge, I personally feel. Only tell them about the same forgiveness and grace that we ourselves managed to find. :)
     
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  18. Messerve

    Messerve Active Member

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    Universal sovereignty isn't referring to universal salvation, just so you know. It's referring to His will being sovereign regardless of our will. Universalism is based on the will's of people who don't want to see anyone go to Hell - a very good goal, by the way. It's just that Universalism approaches this problem by essentially denying that there is a problem, whereas God clearly says there is a problem.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
  19. Messerve

    Messerve Active Member

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    There are actually a few places the Bible refers to the unrighteous as sharing in the eternal fire which is waiting for Satan and his angels. You can see some references in my post earlier.

    Hell is most definitely eternal. The gnashing of teeth will happen at the judgment, I'm sure. But why shouldn't it continue afterwards if these people will also be abiding in his wrath forever with no escape? Jude likens it to the fire that wiped out Sodom and Gomorrah, and describes it as an ongoing destruction. Essentially, if that fire that fell on those towns could somehow persist and be continuously burning and destroying those people. Check Jude 1:7
     
  20. SarahsKnight

    SarahsKnight Jesus Christ is this Knight's truth.

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    Except for that whole part where he didn't.

    He said they serve as an example of what will happen to the ungodly. The fact that the fire is eternal is irrelevant to proving what happens to the people who suffer it. Fire consumes, it destroys; it does not preserve in torture, nor does it say anywhere in Scripture that the fire of God will do so (in fact, dang near every time it is mentioned God's fire clearly consumed and destroyed men and cities. And if Sodom and Gomorrah were clearly burnt to ashes, and Jude says they serve as an example, the only logical conclusion is the ultimate fate of the ungodly is at least very similar to that. It is ridiculous to conclude eternal torture from this verse. If unsaved people who have died are totally alive and burning in hell right now or will in the future, then how the heck can they serve as an example to those still living on Earth who can make a choice for or against Christ? We can't SEE ANYONE burning in hell from here (and anyone who tries to claim that they have is lying out their behinds for personal reasons). However, if the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah are not here today, that is physical evidence enough that they were utterly destroyed, as well as the people living within. THAT serves as an example.

    There's no such thing as a process of destruction that never ends, such that the victim of it is never truly destroyed.

    If eternal conscious torment is true, then just say it. The only time in the entire Bible the words are mentioned is in Revelation 20:10; "tormented forever and ever" (close enough to eternal torment as is traditionally believed). And yet no mention even then of human being the victims of it - only Satan, the beast, and the false prophet. In fact, when the humans are mentioned in conjunction with the lake of fire later in that chapter, their fate is called the second death. Why of all times, if eternal conscious torment were true, does John utterly fail by the Holy Spirit's guidance to give it to us straight and say that they will live forever being tortured in fire? Why use words that plainly suggest if not outright say the opposite of living forever in torment? Why would you ever call it the second death if you do not actually die in that fire? Why would Jesus ever warn in Matthew 10:28 that the soul can be destroyed along with the body if the fire of Gehenna only preserves it in torment and pain without actually destroying it? It amazes me that Christians today still believe this garbage in the face of plain wording from Scripture.
     
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