Does Israel get taken over again?

iamlamad

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Your "ten ethnic groups" were individual kingdoms of provincial territories led by individual kings, and were the predecessors of today's European countries. They were a demonstrable literal fulfillment of the ten horns of Daniel 7.

I disagree. The ten kings are most certainly ten kings that exist TODAY. Because the 11th will follow and will become the Beast. Daniel make this fierce beast appear as the legs of iron in the image of Daniel two, but that is because chapter 7 was speaking of the same land areas as the Eastern leg of the image. IMHO these ten nations with kings are Muslim nations that surround Israel. Of course Iran, Iraq, Syria, Jordan, etc, were a part of Rome at one time.
 
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jgr

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I disagree. The ten kings are most certainly ten kings that exist TODAY. Because the 11th will follow and will become the Beast. Daniel make this fierce beast appear as the legs of iron in the image of Daniel two, but that is because chapter 7 was speaking of the same land areas as the Eastern leg of the image. IMHO these ten nations with kings are Muslim nations that surround Israel. Of course Iran, Iraq, Syria, Jordan, etc, were a part of Rome at one time.
Your prerogative. But why would you disagree with confirmed history?
 
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jgr

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The true church has gained MUCH knowledge of scripture since then.
The Reformers recognized antichrist with the benefit of the certainty of 20/20 historical hindsight.

What of similar certainty has today's true Church recognized?
 
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Biblewriter

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Your prerogative. But why would you disagree with confirmed history?
Give documented evidence of your ten "kings" of the ten "kingdoms," of the war in which the Pope defeated three of them, and of the rest of these ten "kings" submitting to the Pope.
 
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jgr

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Give documented evidence of your ten "kings" of the ten "kingdoms," of the war in which the Pope defeated three of them, and of the rest of these ten "kings" submitting to the Pope.

"And behold a fourth beast, . . . and it had ten horns." Daniel 7:7.


The ten horns represent the kingdoms (variously referred to as "barbarian," "Germanic," "Teutonic") which entered and established rule in the Western Roman Empire in the 5th century.


The Ten Horns, a Part of the Fourth Beast of Daniel 7

"The great invasions were not a war of the barbarians to defeat and subjugate the Roman Empire. Rather, the Germans sought to become part of the Empire and were fighting for concessions, in the form of land or money. The Roman Empire . . . became a sort of vacuum into which the Germans pushed their way. They came as settlers, as allies. . . . They did not defeat the Roman Empire in one cataclysmic battle; instead, they permeated the Roman world over the course of three centuries and transformed the fundamental nature of Roman civilization." Norman Cantor, Western Civilization: Its Genesis and Destiny, Vol. I, p. 243. Emphasis supplied.

"The city of Rome itself became no more than one of the many German kingdoms in western Europe. Although this by no means signified the death of the heritage of Roman culture or the end of the power of Rome in the East, the year 476 marked a fundamental turning point in the Empire." Ibid., p. 248.

"By the fifth century the Roman army, which had been the arbiter of imperial power, was actually made up of a number of barbarian tribes and adventurers. The vital center of the Empire was no longer Roman in any real sense. Thus the Roman Empire did not succumb to invasion; we can really assign no date to its 'fall.' We can only conclude that by the end of the fifth century the ancient city-state had lost its power; that a wealthy urban society had been replaced by a rural culture based on peasant, serf, and landlord; that the Roman army contained scarcely any men who were Roman in anything but name; and that the Roman emperor and Senate had become outworn and hollow forms. After 476 the facade was gone, and Italy was part of a German kingdom." Ibid., p. 252.


Germanic Peoples Which Took Over the Roman Empire

On the left you will find the name of the people group, the year they acquired dominion, and the territory they occupied. Additional comments are on the right. You will notice that we discuss more than ten groups. The first ten are the ones generally considered to be the ten referred to in the prophecy. The others are discussed also for your consideration and evaluation.



Alemanni
c. 260
Germany

The Alemanni were originally composed of fragments of several Germanic peoples, and they remained a loosely knit confederation of tribes. Although several tribes put their military forces under the joint command of two leaders for the duration of a campaign, the different peoples generally found it difficult to combine, and they had nothing that could be called a central government. The Romans were displaced from the Agri Decumates by the Alemanni c. 260. (The Agri Decumates is a name given by the ancient Roman historian Tacitus to the Black Forest and adjoining areas of southwestern Germany between the Rhine, Danube, and Main Rivers.) The Alemanni occupied that region, and late in the 5th century they expanded into Alsace and northern Switzerland, thus making those regions German speaking. In 496 they were conquered by Clovis and incorporated into his Frankish dominions. The people continued to exist, yet under Merovingian rule. Originally pagan, they were converted to Christianity by Columbanus in the early 7th century. As that was the Celtic, and not the Catholic, form of Christianity, they were referred to as "Arians" by the Catholics. Between the years 718 and 732, by the efforts of Boniface, a Catholic monk from England, the Alemanni were brought under papal control.

Suevi
411
NW Spain

Moved west across Gaul around the year 406. Considered to be Arian. Became Catholic around the year 555 (Some sources say 575). Absorbed into the Visigoth kingdom about 585.

Visigoths
415
Spain

Arian. Entered Roman territory around 395. Sacked Rome in 410. Established a large kingdom in Spain and Gaul in 415. Driven from Gaul in 508. Became Catholic in 587. In 621 they gained possession of the entire Spanish peninsula. Overthrown by the Moslems in 711.

Vandals
429
N. Africa

Arian. Entered Roman territory in 409, settling in Spain. Crossed into Africa in 429. Took Carthage in 439. Captured and sacked Rome in 455. Destroyed by Justinian's general, Belisarius, in 534..

Franks
429
France

First entered Roman territory in 358. In 486 Clovis destroyed the last vestige of Roman power in Gaul. They were pagan, but Clovis was converted to Catholicism in 496, the first of the barbarians to do so. Clovis established a powerful kingdom by conquering several other German kingdoms. In 561 the kingdom was divided into four parts, three of which, after 567, were off-and-on-again separately ruled: Neustria, Austrasia, and Burgundy.

Burgundians
443
Burgundy

First appeared in Roman territory in 412. Arian. It appears that the king converted to Catholicism about the year 520. The kingdom fell to the Franks in 532 or 534. Now a part of France.

Angles,
Saxons,
Jutes

c. 450
Britain

These groups were pagan until Catholicism, which, introduced in 597, was established by the Synod of Whitby in 664. The Anglo-Saxon kingdom was conquered by the Normans in 1066.

Heruli
476
Rome

The Heruli were German auxiliary troops in Rome who mutinied on August 23, 476, bringing to an end the Western Roman imperial line. Was it really a Herulian kingdom, or simply a Herulian king who played an important role in Western civilization? As a people group they hold no major significance; but their leader, Odoacer, stands out distinctly in history. They were Arian. When Odoacer was killed by Theodoric in 493, we hear no more about the Heruli.

Ostrogoths
493
Rome

Arrived in 456. Came to power in Rome in 493 when Theodoric killed Odoacer. Arian. Belisarius expelled them from Rome in 538.Their kingdom came to an end in 553.

Lombards
568
Italy

A Suevian group who moved into Italy in 568. Arian. The changeover to Catholicism took place between 588 and 662. They lasted as a kingdom until 774.

Frisians
Native,
A portion
of the Netherlands

Sources conflict with each other as to whether their territory was ever under Roman jurisdiction. If it was, the Romans, not the Frisians, were the invaders. This is not an example of a barbarian group migrating into Roman territory. It is also questioned whether or not they ever formed a self-contained political, cultural, or ethnic unit which might be called a "kingdom." Descendants of this people group still exist there today. The Frisians were pagan until forced to become Catholic in 750.

Thuringians
by A.D. 500
Germany

They first appeared sometime after c. 350. They were conquered by the Huns near the middle of the 5th century. But by the beginning of the 6th century the Thuringians had an extensive kingdom from the Elbe to the Danube, outside the territory proper of the old Roman Empire. In 531 they were attacked by the Franks and the Saxons. The northern part of their kingdom was taken by the Saxons, and the southern part became Frankish territory. If occupying territory within the boundaries of the old Roman Empire is a qualification for being one of the ten horns, the Thuringians probably would not qualify. Some maps of the Roman Empire, however, do include what might have been the southern portion of Thuringia.

Bavarians
639
Bavaria-Austria

Appear to have come on the scene too late to be one of the orginal ten horns. Possibly Catholic by the time they achieved independence. Incorporated into Charlemagne's dominions in 788.


Noteworthy Names:

Alaric, king of the Visigoths (395-410)
Clovis, king of the Franks (481-511)
Genseric, king of the Vandals (428-477)
Odoacer, king of the Heruli (476-493)
Theodoric, king of the Ostrogoths (493-526)


Religion of the Germanic Kingdoms:

Much to the dismay of the Catholics, most of the Germanic kingdoms adopted the Arian form of Christianity.

"When the Germanic peoples entered the Roman Empire and
founded successor-kingdoms in the western part, most had been
Arian Christians for more than a century." Wikipedia article: Arianism

The Franks and Anglo-Saxons were the notable exceptions, converting directly from paganism to Catholicism.

Here is how Encyclopaedia Brittanica describes the situation:

"In all these cases the Germans embraced the Arian form of Christianity;
none of the major Germanic people became officially Catholic until the
conversion of the Franks under Clovis (496) and of the Burgundians
under Sigismund. The reason for their adoption of Arianism rather
than Catholicism is very obscure. Unhappily, the books produced
by the Arian Germans have all disappeared with the exception of
the fragments of Ulfilas' Bible, some leaves of an anonymous Gothic
commentary on St. John's Gospel, and a fragment of a church calendar
written in Gothic. It is clear, however, that their theology depended on a
literal interpretation of the Scriptures." Encyclopaedia Brittanica: Germans, Ancient.

Here it is from another source:

"From 476 to 521 the world was almost entirely under the sway of Arians.
All the barbarians, Visigoths, Ostrogoths, and Vandals professed
Arianism. Not that they could appreciate the intricate subtleties of
the Greek language or the technical terms which separated those
who held the Creed of Nicaea from the followers of Arius, but
because they had received their Christianity from Arian missionaries,
and perhaps because they disdained to worship with the despised
Roman provincials." F. J. Foakes-Jackson, "The New West and Gregory
the Great," in the composite work An Outline of Christianity (New York:
Bethlehem Publishers, 1926), Vol. 2, p. 150.

Of all the Germanic kingdoms, the Vandals, Heruli, and Ostrogoths posed the greatest hindrance to the development of the papacy. Their defeat allowed for unchallenged
papal supremacy in 538.
After that, all the Arian kingdoms were
eventually forced to become Catholic.
 
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jgr

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Give documented evidence of your ten "kings" of the ten "kingdoms," of the war in which the Pope defeated three of them, and of the rest of these ten "kings" submitting to the Pope.

Divided Nations
or
The Ten Divisions of Western Rome

The Alemanni
“They inflicted severe wounds on the rich provinces of Gaul; they were the first who removed the veil that covered the feeble majesty of Italy. A numerous body of the Alemanni penetrated across the Danube and through the Rheatian Alps into the plains of Lombardy, advanced as far as Ravenna, and displayed the victorious banners of barbarians almost in sight of Rome [cir. A.D. 260].” And then, “laden with spoil, they retired into Germany; and their retreat was esteemed as a victory by the unwarlike Romans.” Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Edward Gibbon, chap. 10, pars. 26, 27.

More information is available in chapters 9 and 10 of the same book by Gibbon.

The Franks
The Franks were very closely connected to the Alemanni.
“About the year 240 A.D., a new confederacy was formed under the name of Franks, by the old inhabitants of the Lower Rhine and the Weser. The love of liberty was the ruling passion of these Germans; the enjoyment of it, their best treasure; the word that expressed that enjoyment, the most pleasing to their ear. They deserved, they assumed, they maintained, the honourable epithet of Franks, or Freemen, which concealed, though it did not extinguish, the peculiar names of the several States of the confederacy.
The Rhine, though dignified with the title of safeguard of the provinces, was an imperfect barrier against the daring spirit of enterprise with which the Franks were actuated. Their rapid devastations stretched from the river to the foot of the Pyrenees; nor were they stopped by those mountains. Spain, which had never dreaded, was unable to resist, the inroads of the Germans. During twelve years [A.D. 256-268], the greatest part of the reign of Gallienus, that opulent country was the theatre of unequal and destructive hostilities. Tarragona, the flourishing capital of a peaceful province, was sacked and almost destroyed...When the exhausted country no longer supplied a variety of plunder, the Franks seized on some vessels in the ports of Spain, and transported themselves into Mauritania. The distant province was astonished with the fury of these barbarians, who seemed to fall from a new world, as their name, manners, and complexion were equally unknown on the coast of Africa.” Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Edward Gibbon, chap. 10, pars. 22, 24.

Speaking of the Alemanni and the Franks
The Alemanni were established in the modern countries of Alsace and Lorraine; the Franks occupied the island of the Batavians, together with an extensive district of Brabant... chap. 19, par. 20.

Further information found in chapters 12, 14, 19, 26, 31, 36 of Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. ‘Italy and Her Invaders’ Vol. 1, part 1, chap. 3, par. 6.

The Suevi, Vandals, Burgundians
The Burgundians actually settled first with the Suevi and Vandals continuing to move on. The Suevi and Vandals had disagreements, war was waged, and the Suevi eventually settled where Portugal now is, with the Vandals finally moving on to conquer the northern parts of Africa.
“The victorious confederates pursued their march, and on the last day of the year [406], in a season when the waters of the Rhine were most probably frozen, they entered, without opposition, the defenceless provinces of Gaul. This memorable passage of the Suevi, the Vandals, the Alani (about 417 A.D. they sought refuge under the banner of the Vandals) and the Burgundians, who never afterward retreated, may be considered as the fall of the Roman Empire in the countries beyond the Alps; and the barriers which had so long separated the savage and the civilized nations of the earth, were from that fatal moment levelled with the ground.” Decline and Fall, Gibbon, chap. 30, pars. 15-19.

“In the southeast of Gaul, the Burgundians, after many wars and some reverses, established themselves, with the consent of the Romans, in the district then called Sapaudia and now Savoy. Their territory was somewhat more extensive than the province which was the cradle of the present royal house of Italy, since it stretched northward beyond the lake of Neufchatel, and southward as far as Grenoble....The lands they divided by lot, each one receiving half the estate of the Roman host or hospes.” Italy and Her Invaders, book 2, chap. 3, par. 14.

“....conquered from the Romans the whole valley of the Rhone, in which they henceforth settled.” Encyclopedia Britannica, art. Germany, part 2, Confederation of Tribes, par. 2.

“....the whole of the Saone and the Lower Rhone from Dijon to the Mediterranean, and included the western half of Switzerland.” Middle ages, chap. 1, part 1, sec. 9, note 8.

“And in 476, when the last vestige of the Western Empire vanished, the Burgundian kingdom included all of Switzerland that lies west of that part of the Rhine that flows from the south into the lake of Constance.” The Empires of Prophecy, A. T. Jones, pg 612.

“The Vandals and the Suevi went on to Spain.” “At length the barbarians, satiated with carnage and rapine, and afflicted by the contagious evils which they themselves had introduced, fixed their permanent seats in the depopulated country. The ancient Galicia, whose limits included the kingdom of Old Castile, was divided between the Suevi and the Vandals.” Decline and Fall, Gibbon, chap. 31, par. 36. Galicia is now situated to the north of Portugal.

“Thus the kingdom of the Vandals was permanently fixed in Africa, where it remained as long as it was a kingdom at all, and as long as the Vandals were a nation.” Empires of Prophecy, A. T. Jones, pg 619.

“....the Vandals, as we know, ruled Africa from Carthage;....the Burgundians were settled in the valley of the Rhone, and their chief capital was Lyons; The Suevi held the greater part of southern and western Spain, and their capital was Astorga.” Italy and Her Invaders, book 3, chap. 4, par. 7.

Speaking of the Suevi, “held the kingdom of Galicia....small part of the peninsula which now forms Portugal.” Encyclopedia Britannica, art. Germany, Confederation of Tribes, par. 2.

The Visigoths
Speaking of the Visigoths, “His victorious Goths, forty-three years after they had passed the Danube, were established [A.D. 419], according to the faith of treaties, in the possession of the second Aquitaine, a maritime province between the Garonne and the Loire, under the civil and ecclesiastical jurisdiction of Bordeaux....The Gothic limits were enlarged by the additional gift of some neighbouring dioceses; and the successors of Alaric fixed their royal residence at Toulouse, which included five populous quarters, or cities, within the spacious circuit of its walls.”
Speaking of Euric and the Visigoths, “He passed the Pyrenees at the head of a numerous army, subdued the cities of Saragossa and Pampeluna, vanquished in battle the martial nobles of the Tarragonese province, carried his victorious arms into the heart of Lusitania, and permited the Suevi to hold the kingdom of Galicia under the Gothic monarchy of Spain. The efforts of Euric were not less vigorous or less successful in Gaul; and throughout the country that extends from the Pyrenees to the Rhone and the Loire, Berry and Auvergne were the only cities, or dioceses, which refused to acknowledge him as their master.”
Later the Visigoths yielded to the Franks “the greater part of their Gallic possession; but their loss was amply compensated by the easy conquest and secure enjoyment of the provinces of Spain. From the monarchy of the Goths, which soon involved the Suevic kingdom of Galicia, the modern Spaniards still derive some national vanity.” Decline and Fall, Gibbon, chaps. 30, pars. 23-25; 31, pars. 7-39; 36, par. 22; 38, par. 29.

The Angles and Saxons, or, Anglo-Saxons
“Hengist and Horsa, who, according to the Anglo-Saxon historians, landed in the year 449 on the shore which is called Ypwinesfleet, were personages of more than common sort. ‘They were the sons of Wihtgils; Wihtgils, son of Witta, Witta of Wecta, Wecta of Woden.’ So says the Anglo-Saxon chronicle, and adds, ‘From this Woden sprung all our royal families.’ These descendants, in the third generation from the great Saxon divinity, came over in three boats. They came by invitation of Wyrtgeone – Vortigern – king of the Britons. The king gave them land in the southeast of the country, on condition that they should fight against the Picts; and they did fight, and had the victory wheresoever they came. And then they sent for the Angles, and told them of the worthlessness of the people and the excellences of the land. This is the Saxon narrative.” History of England, Knight, chap. 5, par. 6.

“The work for which the mercenaries had been hired was quickly done, and the Picts are said to have been scattered to the winds in a battle fought on the eastern coast of Britain. But danger from the Pict was hardly over when danger came from the Jutes themselves. Their fellow pirates must have flocked from the Channel to their settlement in Thanet; the inlet between Thanet and the mainland was crossed, and the Englishmen won their first victory over the Britons in forcing their passage of the Medway at the village of Aylesford. A second defeat at the passage of the Cray drove the British forces in terror upon London; but the ground was soon won back again, and it was not till 465 that a series of petty conflicts which had gone on along the shores of Thanet made way for a decisive struggle at Wippedsfleet. Here, however, the overthrow was so terrible that from this moment all hope of saving northern Kent seems to have been abandoned, and it was only on its southern shore that the Britons held their ground. Ten years later, in 475, the long contest was over, and with the fall of Lymme, whose broken walls look, from the slope to which they cling, over the great flat of Romney Marsh, the work of the first English conqueror was done.” Larger History of England, Green, chap. 1, par. 18.

“And from that time until now, the history of the Angles and Saxons – the Anglo-Saxons – is but the history of England – Angle-land.” The Empires of Prophecy, Jones, pg 651.

The Ostrogoths
The Ostrogoths came under the power of the Huns when Attila was ruling, Decline and Fall chap. 26, par. 12. It wasn’t until the death of Attila, in 453, that they reclaimed their independence. This also lead to the war against Ellak and the Huns, with the Huns being defeated and Ellak also dying in battle. After the victory over the Huns by the Ostrogoths and Gepidae, the remnant of the Huns went back to Scythia in the southern parts of Russia.

Further information on this point see Decline and Fall, Gibbon, chap. 35, par. 16. Italy and Her Invaders, book 3, chap. 1, par. 3. Encyclopedia Britannica, art. Goths, par. 14.

“Such triumphs, however, were productive only of fame, and the invincible Ostrogoths were reduced to extreme distress by the want of clothing and food. They unanimously resolved to desert their Pannonian encampments, and boldly to advance into the warm and wealthy neighbourhood of the Byzantine court, which already maintained in pride and luxury so many bands of confederate Goths. After proving by some acts of hostility that they could be dangerous, or at least troublesome, enemies, the Ostrogoths sold at a high price their reconciliation and fidelity, accepted a donative of lands and money, and were trusted with the defence of the Lower Danube, under the command of Theodoric, who succeeded, after his father’s death [A.D. 475], to the hereditary throne of the Amali.” Decline and Fall, Gibbon, chap. 39, par. 2, and note.

“Although Gibbon says they “resolved to desert their Pannonian encampments,” it must not be understood that this is spoken of the whole nation, but rather the principle warriors; nor that these renounced either their claim or their possessions there; because the history that follows shows that the Ostrogoths dwelt in Pannonia, and that their superior power was exercised and greatfully acknowledged over all that province during the whole fifty-one years (A.D. 475-526) of the reign of Theodoric.
This was so even after the seat of the kingdom had been removed to Italy, as it was, in A.D. 489.” The Empires of Prophecy, Jones, pg 660.

“He reduced under a strong and regular government, the unprofitable countries of Rhaeetia, Noricum, Dalmatia, and Pannonia, from the source of the Danube and the territory of the Bavarians, to the petty kingdom erected by the Gepidae on the ruins of Sirmium....The Alemanni were protected, an inroad of the Burgundians was severely chastised, the conquest of Arles and Marseilles opened a free communication with the Visigoths, who revered him as their national protector, and as the guardian of his grandchild, the infant son f Alaric [II].”
“His domestic alliances – a wife, two daughters, a sister, and a niece – united the family of Theodoric with the kings of the Franks, the Burgundians, the Visigoths, the Vandals, and the Thuringians, and contributed to maintain harmony, or at least the balance, of the great republic of the West.... The Gothic sovereignty was established from sicily to the Danube; from Sirmium, or Belgrade, to the Atlantic Ocean; and the Greeks themselves have acknowledged that Theodoric reigned over the fairest portion of the Western Empire.” Decline and Fall, Gibbon, chap. 39, pars. 10, 11.

Further information, Decline and Fall, Gibbon, chaps. 26, par. 12; 34, par. 5; 35, par. 4, 7, 9, 11, 15, 16.

The Lombards
“On the Danube above Vienna, and as best we can make out, possessing, for a while at least, both banks of the river, were seated the Lombards, who regained their independence at the death of Attila, A.D. 453. Some time afterward, at the command of the daughter of the king of the Lombards, a brother of the king of the Heruli was assassinated while a royal guest at the Lombard palace, apparently as a suitor for the hand of the Lombard princess. This brought on a war, and the Heruli were successful on imposing upon the Lombards “a tribute, the price of blood.” We know not to a certainty how long the tribute was paid. We only know that the success of the Heruli made them insolent, and that their insolence was paid for by their ruin.” The Empires of Prophecy, Jones, pg 665.

“The assassination of a royal guest was executed in the presence, and by the command, of the king’s daughter, who had been provoked by some words of insult, and disappointed by his diminutive stature; and a tribute, the price of blood, was imposed on the Lombards by his brother, the king of the Heruli. Adversity revived a sense of moderation and justice, and the insolence of conquest was chastised by the signal defeat and irreparable dispersion of the Heruli, who were seated in the southern provinces of Poland.” Decline and Fall, Gibbon, chap. 42, par. 2.

“This expedition carried the main body of the Lombards beyond the Danube for a while, but the exploit only the more firmly established their power, which was afterward displayed in the extirpation of the Gepidae. Later, A.D. 526-536, they took entire possession of Normicum and Pannonia, which they held till A.D. 566.
In A.D. 567 the Lombards, under their great king, Alboin, removed from Pannonia to Italy. And, ‘whatever might be the grounds of his security, Alboin neither expected nor encountered a Roman army in the field. He ascended the Julian Alps, and looked down with contempt and desire on the fruitful plains to which his victory [ A.D. 568-570] communicated the perpetual appellation of Lombardy....From the Trentine Hills to the gates of Ravenna and Rome, the inland regions of Italy became, without a battle or a siege, the lasting patrimony of the Lombards....Delighted with the situation of a city which was endeared to his pride by the difficulty of the purchase, the prince of the Lombards disdained the ancient glories of Milan; and Pavia, during some ages, was respected as the capital of the kingdom of Italy.’
So wide-spread in Italy was the Lombard rule, that Lombardy ‘was, indeed, for a time the name for Italy itself.’ From that time to this the history of the Lombards is but the history of Italy; and Lombardy is still ‘ the name of the finest province’ of that country, which, itself, might almost be called the key of history.” The Empires of Prophecy, Jones, pg 666.

Further information see, Decline and Fall, Gibbon, chaps. 5, par. 8; 35, par. 16; 39, par. 2, 10 note; 36, par. 29; 45, pars. 5-7, 14, 15. Outlines of Universal History, sec. 180. Dr. George Weber was professor and director of the High School of Heidelberg, Germany.

The Heruli
“....the confederates of Italy would not have elected him for their general, unless the exploits of Odoacer had established a high opinion of his courage and capacity. Their military acclamations saluted him with the title of king [Aug. 23, A.D. 476]; but he abstained, during his whole reign, from the use of the purple and diadem....Royalty was familiar to the barbarians, and the submissive people of Italy was prepared to obey, without a murmur, the authority which he should condescend to exercise as the vicegerent of the emperor of the West. But Odoacer had resolved to abolish that useless and expensive office....Augustulus....signified his resignation to the Senate....An epistle was addressed, by their unanimous decree, to the emperor Zeno, the son-in-law and successor of Leo, who had lately been restored, after a short rebellion, to the Byzantine throne. They solemnly disclaim the necessity, or even the wish, of continuing any longer the imperial succession in Italy....they consent that the seat of universal empire shall be transferred from Rome to Constantinople....”
“Odoacer was the first barbarian who reigned in Italy over a people who had once asserted their just superiority above the rest of mankind.” Decline and Fall, Gibbon, chap. 36, pars. 28-33.

Further study see, Decline and Fall, Gibbon, chaps. 10, pars. 10, 37, 38; 25, par. 31; 35 par. 9; 34 par. 12; 36 par. 12, 28; chap. 33 last sentence.

All information plus sources, can be found in ‘The Empires of Prophecy’ A. T. Jones, pgs. 599-696. To my knowledge this book is out of print and out of circulation, and near impossible to find.

The ten divisions of Rome
1. Alemanni - Germany. 6. Visigoths - Spain.
2. Franks - France. 7. Anglo-Saxons - England.
3. Burgundians - Switzerland. 8. Ostrogoths - Exterminated.
4. Suevi - Portugal. 9. Lombards - Italy.
5. Vandals - Exterminated. 10. Heruli - Exterminated.
History shows that the Western Roman Empire divided into ten separate kingdoms, Alemanni, Franks, Burgundians, Suevi, Vandals, Visigoths, Anglo-Saxons, Ostrogoths, Lombards, and the Heruli; this is the order that they came into prominence in the western empire. History is also unmistakable as to who uprooted the three exterminated kingdoms. It can be attributed to one power only and this power is the little horn of Daniel 7, which is synonymous with the beast from the sea in Revelation 13 and the power that enforces the mark of the beast, the Papal Church of Rome
 
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jgr

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Give documented evidence of your ten "kings" of the ten "kingdoms," of the war in which the Pope defeated three of them, and of the rest of these ten "kings" submitting to the Pope.

476 AD – The end of the Western Roman Empire



Encyclopedia Britannica, Odoacer was “…first barbarian king of Italy. The date on which he assumed power, 476, is traditionally considered the end of the Western Roman Empire.” (Encyclopedia Britannica, 2009)



Microsoft Encarta Online Encyclopedia, Odoacer was a “Gothic chieftain who received his military training in the Roman army and became the first Germanic ruler of Italy. When Romulus Augustulus became emperor of the Western Roman Empire in AD 475, Odoacer led an uprising of the German troops in the Roman army and deposed the new emperor in 476. This event is usually said to have marked the end of the Roman Empire in the west…” (Microsoft Encarta Online Encyclopedia, 2009)



Ten horns represent the Ten Kingdoms into which the Roman Empire was divided when it fell apart.



Edward Gibbon (1737 – 1794), the English historian, says the ten kingdoms were: “The Alemanni, the Franks, the Burgundians, the Vandals, the Suevi, the Visigoths, the Saxons, the Ostrogoths, the Lombards and the Heruli”. (see, M. H. Brown, The Sure Word of Prophecy, pp. 54, 55).



George Stanley Faber (1773 – 1854), an Anglican theologian and prolific author, “The history of the little horn …is the Papacy—Yet it cannot be the temporal kingdom of the Papacy; but must be that spiritual kingdom of the Bishop of Rome…grew at length into a catholic spiritual empire, …—It was to arise during the period that the Roman empire was divided into ten kingdoms… but after the saints had been given by the secular power into its hand, it was to become an universal ecclesiastical tyrant…” (Faber, 1806, p. xxviii)



Richard Bennett, a former Roman Catholic Priest, and, the President and founder of Berean Beacon Ministries, “The barbarian invasions of the Western Roman Empire helped immeasurably to build the whole structure of papal Rome. The ten barbarian kingdoms that were a serious threat were the Alamanni, Franks, Visigoths, Burgundians, Suevi, Anglo-Saxons, Lombards, Heruli, Vandals, and the Ostrogoths1.



Albert Barnes, “Even the Romanists themselves admit that the Roman Empire was, by means of the incursions of the northern nations, dismembered into ten kingdoms (Calmet on Revelation 13:1; and he refers likewise to Berangaud, Bossuet, and DuPin. See Newton, p. 209); and Machiavelli (History of Florence) with no design of furnishing an illustration of this prophecy, and probably with no recollection of it, has mentioned these names: 1. The Ostrogoths in Moesia; 2. The Visigoths in Pannonia; 3. The Sueves and Alans in Gascoign and Spain; 4. The Vandals in Africa; 5. The Franks in France; 6. The Burgundians in Burgundy; 7. The Heruli and Turingi in Italy; 8. The Saxons and Angles in Britain; 9. The Huns in Hungary; 10. The Lombards at first upon the Danube, afterwards in Italy. (Albert Barnes, Notes on the Book of Daniel, p. 322)



The Roman Historian Macchiavelli, cites 10 tribes among whom the Roman Empire was divided after the fall of Romulus Augustulus, the last Roman Emperor: the Lombards, the Franks, the Burgundians, the Ostrogoths, the Visigoths, the Vandals, the Heruli, the Suevi, the Huns, and the Saxons: ten in all. (H. Grattan Guinness, The Divine Program of the Worlds History, p. 318)



Thomas Newton, “Antichrist, then (as the Fathers delight to call him), or the little horn, is to be sought among the ten kingdoms of the Western Roman Empire”. (Thomas Newton, Dissertations on the Prophecies, pp. 239, 240)



Paul Randall, Reform Baptist pastor, “The little horn of Daniel 7, verse 8, which was arising among these 10 horns, or kingdoms, developed into a dominating spiritual and political kingdom among the 10 nations of Europe after the fall of the Pagan Roman Empire, and it eventually became the Papal System..2”

Pope Pius IX, Apostolic Letter Cum Catholica Ecclesia, “It is, therefore, by a particular decree of Divine Providence that, at the fall of the Roman Empire and its partition into separate kingdoms, the Roman Pontiff, whom Christ made the head and center of his entire Church, acquired civil power”. (Pope Pius IX, Apostolic Letter Cum Catholica Ecclesia, March 26, 1860).


The Heruli, the Vandals, and the Ostrogoths were the three tribes uprooted



Lars Brownworth, an author and former United States history and political science teacher at The Stony Brook School, and the author of Lost to the West: The Forgotten Byzantone Empire That Rescued Western Civilization (New York: Random House, 2009), “I would agree that the Vandals, Heruli, and Otrogoths all disappeared (or were ‘uprooted’), although I would argue that the Roman empire didn’t break into 10 kingdoms, just the Western half did. The eastern half continued as one political unit till 1453 (or at least 1204). You could of course also argue that all ten nations have since disappeared…In any case the Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths were the first three tribes to disappear after the fall of the western empire and its division into Germanic kingdoms3.

Robert Browning (1914 – 1997), a Scottish Byzantinist and university professor in his recent book Justinian and Theodora, describes in depth the overthrow of the Heruli with the conquest of Odoacer’s kingdom in Italy in 479 A.D. (Robert Browning, Justinian and Theodora (New York: Thames & Hudson, 1987), pp. 24-25. Browning then writes of what happened in 534, in the struggle between Justinian’s general Belisarius and the Vandals: “After a swift reconnaissance, Belisarius attacked the Vandal camp. Gelimer did not attempt to defend it, but fled westward into Numidia. The rest of his army followed their king’s example, abandoning their families and all their possessions. The Vandal force no longer existed. Indeed, the Vandals as a people vanished from the face of the earth (Robert Browning, Justinian and Theodora (New York: Thames & Hudson, 1987), p. 98. Browning later describes the re-taking of Rome from the Ostrogoths in the spring of 538 (p. 111), and states that shortly thereafter, “the Ostrogothic kingdom had ceased to exist” (p. 114).



Katharine Scherman, historian and American author of non-fiction describes the aftermath of this re-conquest, and its implications for both the papacy and the Ostrogoths, “The Church, with the shadow of the ancient authority behind it, was the only symbol left of imperial Rome, and its bishop, the Pope, was the city’s only recourse for leadership and protection. . . .”.The Roman Empire in Europe would be replaced by the spiritual empire, which came to be temporal as well, whose reigning seigneur was the bishop of Rome. “As for the Ostrogoths, with the defeat and dethronement of their leader and the destruction of their army, they passed out of Italian history; in fact, out of history altogether” (Katharine Scherman, The Birth of France: Warriors, Bishops, and Long-haired Kings, (New York: Random House, 1987), pp. 164-165).



Rev. E. B. Elliott, M.A., says: “I might cite three that were eradicated from before the Pope out of the list first given; viz., the Heruli under Odoacer, the Vandals, and the Ostrogoths. (“Horoe Apocalypticoe,” Vol. III, p. 168, Note 1. London: 1862)



Rev. Bertrand L. Conway, “Historically it was the Heruli (493 AD), Vandals (534 AD) and Ostrogoths (538 AD) who severly weakened the old, divided (476 AD) Roman Empire. But the bishop of Rome did not formerly reach his worldly high position until 538 AD when he subdued the Ostrogoths.” (Rev. Bertrand L. Conway, The Question Box Answers)



Lars Brownworth, an author and former United States history and political science teacher at The Stony Brook School, in his book, Lost to the West: The Forgotten Byzantone Empire That Rescued Western Civilization (New York: Random House, 2009), p. 89 states that Vandals that they, “virtually disappeared from history” after their defeat by Belisarius in North Africa in 534 and came to an abrupt and completely unexpected end.

Bishop Thomas Newton, speaking of the power that destroyed the three horns, says: “And the pope hath in a manner pointed himself out for the person by wearing the triple crown. (Dissertations on the Prophecies,” p. 220. London). (In former days crowns of conquered kings were placed on the head of the conqueror),



Dr. George Dawe, Professor Emeritus of Systematic Theology, Union Presbyterian Seminary identifies these uprooted horns as the kingdoms of the Heruli, the Vandals and the Ostrogoths, between the years 493-553. (Outlines of Prophecy, p15)



  1. W. Previté-Orton: Another historical work described the demise of the Vandals in the words, they “disappearedas a mist” (C. W. Previté-Orton, Shorter Cambridge Medieval History, 4th edition, University Press 1953, Volume 1, p. 189).


Encyclopedia Britannica, vol. 5 – The kingdom of the Heruli in Italy disappeared from history during the sixth century A.D. The most recent edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica, describes the aftermath of their defeat by the third-century Roman Emperor, Claudius II: “From then until the mid-6th century, when they vanished from history, their fortunes varied.”(Encyclopedia Britannica, vol. 5 (Chicago: Encyclopedia Britannica Inc, 2002), p. 893.)



Thomas Hodgkin, British historian, in his history, Italy and Her Invaders, Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1899, Volume 4, page 250, declared that Catholic soldiers “dug the grave of the Gothic monarchy.”



Encyclopedia Americana, vol. 3, the Ostrogoths were the last of the three to be destroyed. “In 535 Belisairus recovered Sicily, and in 536 all Italy south of Rome fell to him. He entered Rome in December 536, withstanding the enemy’s siege until it was raised in March 538.” “Belisarius,”. (Encyclopedia Americana, vol. 3 (Danbury, CT: Grolier Inc, 2006), p. 502.)



George Finlay, the Scottish historian, “There are few instances in history of a nation disappearing so rapidly and so completely as the Vandals of Africa.” (History of Greece, George Finlay, Vol. I, p. 232.)



Nelson’s Encyclopedia, “In 533 the Byzantine general, Belisarius, landed in Africa. The Vandals were several times defeated, and Carthage was entered on Sept. 15, 533; …As a nation, the Vandals soon ceased to exist.”–Nelson’s Encyclopedia, Vol. XII, art. “Vandals.”



John Clark Ridpath (1840-1900), historian, an American educator, and editor, speaking of the final defeat of the Goths in [538], He says that there was “inflicted on the barbarians a defeat so decisive as to refix the status of Italy. The greater part of the Gothic army perished either by the sword or in attempting to cross the river…As for the Goths, they either retired to their native seats beyond the mountains or were absorbed by the Italians.” (Ridpath’s History of the World, Vol. IV, pp. 408-417)



Gunner (1851), referring to the year A.D. 538, writes, “in that year the Ostrogoths were overthrown by Belesarius, the Greek general under Justinian, for the express purpose of establishing the Papal church, and of carrying into effect the ‘Justinian Code of Laws,’ which invested the Pope with supreme authority, and constituted him head of the Eastern churches, with power to punish and pardon at will, whomsoever he might choose.” (p. 108)



Christian Assemblies International, a Pentecostal evangelical Christian church, “Three horns plucked up before the little horn appeared: we believe those three horns to be successor kingdoms to the fallen Roman Empire, namely the Vandals, Herulii and Ostrogoths3.”



The little horn did uproot three of the ten kingdoms



Niccolo Machiavelli, (Historian) relates how the popes were behind the removal of the Arian tribes. “Nearly all the wars which the northern barbarians carried on in Italy, it may be here remarked, were occasioned by the pontiffs; and the hordes, with which the country was inundated, were generally called in by them. The same mode of proceeding still continued, and kept Italy weak and unsettled. (History of Florence, p. 13. Washington and London: Universal Classics Library, 1901.)



John Clark Ridpath (1840-1900), an American educator, historian, and editor, “The first kingdom established by the barbarians in Italy was that of the Heruli.” Ridpath, the historian gives the date of the overthrow of the Heruli as 493 A .D . They were overthrown by the Goths under Theodoric by what he called a divine commission from Zeno, the emperor of Eastern Rome. The fact that the Heruli and Ostrogoths were both Arian in belief did not restrain the scheming pontiff from using the one to destroy the other when the outcome resulted in his advancement in power. (See History of the World, by Ridpath, Vol. 4, chap. 74, and Gibbon’s Roman Empire, chapters 39 and 40.)



John Henry Cardinal Newman, D. D., says: “Odoacer was sinking before Theodoric, and the Pope was changing one Arian master for another. (An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, Part II, p. 320. London: 1878).



Edward Gibbon, “They were also Arians, so the Bishop of Rome [the Pope] implored Justinian to uproot the Ostrogoths. Justinian, in turn, implored the Franks to help him in his holy enterprise: When Justinian first meditated the conquest of Italy, he sent ambassadors to the kings of the Franks, and adjured them, by the common ties of alliance and religion, to join in the holy enterprise against the Arians. (Edward Gibbon, The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, volume 4 [chapter 41, paragraph 32] (New York: Harper & Brothers), p. 175.)



Note: Most historians agree that the decimation of the Ostrogoths in Italy marked the beginning of the Middle Ages. Notice the comment by George Finlay: With the conquest of Rome by Belisarius, the history of the ancient city may be considered as terminating; and with his defense against Witiges [A. D. 538], commences the history of the Middle Ages. (George Finlay, Greece Under the Romans, p. 295)





The Little horn of Daniel 7 is papacy



John Gill, Baptist preacher, “The fourth and last beast is the Roman empire, said to have ten horns; now among these rises up a little horn, different from them, and which plucks up three of them;…Now this horn cannot be Antiochus Epiphanes, as Grotius, Junius, and others have thought; for not a single person or king is meant by a horn, but a kingdom or state, and a succession of rulers and governors in it; as by the other ten horns are meant ten kingdoms (ver. 24). And besides, this little horn is a part of the fourth, and not of the third beast, to whom Antiochus belonged; and was to rise, not in the third, but in the fourth monarchy, not in the Grecian, but in the Roman empire; ..and as there is no other that has appeared in the Roman empire but antichrist, or the Pope of Rome, to whom the characters agree as to him”



Isaac Newton, “But it [the Papacy] was a kingdom of a different kind from the other ten kingdoms [referred to in Daniel 7:7, 8]. . . . And such a seer, prophet, and king is the Church of Rome [referring to the little horn of Daniel 7]. (Sir Isaac Newton, Observations on the Prophecies, p. 75)
 
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jgr

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Give documented evidence of your ten "kings" of the ten "kingdoms," of the war in which the Pope defeated three of them, and of the rest of these ten "kings" submitting to the Pope.

The Ten Horns, the Little Horn, and the Three Uprooted Horns

The identification of the ten horns of Daniel 7 is firmly established in history. In his excellent work Horae Apocalypticae, the historian Elliott provided two lists of the ten nations into which the Western Roman Empire disintegrated. His second list stated these ten to be the Alemanni, Anglo-Saxons, Franks, Burgundians, Visigoths, Suevi, Ostrogoths, Heruli, Bavarians and the Vandals. In his first list Elliott had substituted the Lombards for the Bavarians. A study of Gibbon’s classic Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire indicates that the Lombards hold the rightful place in the ten. (See Uriah Smith, Daniel and Revelation, Signs Publishing Company, Melbourne, pp. 135, 136).

If, as the Reformers contended, the little horn represented the Papacy, then history must testify to this fact. In 538 the emperor of the Eastern Roman Empire, Justinian, bestowed the title of Universal Bishop upon Pope Vigilius. The popes, by an act of self-appropriation, had long before taken the religio-political title of Pontifex Maximus after Emperor Gratian ceased to use that imperial title in 375. History must also testify to the identity of the three horns (kingdoms) that would be uprooted at the time of the rise of the papal power.

We have noted that the Ostrogoths, Vandals and Heruli have vanished from Europe, leaving no trace in the twenty-first century. (See chapter entitled, "The Little Horn Among the Ten Horns.") But when did this loss of entity take place? Amazingly all three vanished shortly after the time in which they had reached the zenith of their power. Their decline in each case was dramatic, unexpected and sudden. This prophecy thus is a most compelling one.

Odovacar, the Heruli leader, had, only sixty-two years before 538, unseated the last emperor of the Western Roman Empire in 476.This led to the fall of that mighty empire. At this pinnacle of power Odovacar had extended his nation into a domain where Emperor Zeno of the Eastern Roman Empire would tolerate no more usurpation of Imperial power by the Heruli.

Emperor Zeno commissioned Theodoric, the king of the Ostrogoths, to deal with this Herulian affront to the Empire. Theodoric needed no urging from Zeno for he, too, was envious of Odovacar’s success. Zeno’s command was motivated by a second consideration. The Ostrogoths then occupied territory close to Constantinople and the Emperor hoped that by this military distraction he could ease the pressure he received from the powerful Ostrogoths. The conquest began in 487 and after fifty years the Heruli were quelled, never again to rise as a nation. The first of the three horns had been uprooted. "[By] mid 6th century they [Heruli] vanished from history" (Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1990 edition, art. Heruli).

Justinian became Emperor of the Eastern Roman Empire in 527. A man of religious inclinations, he instituted "holy" wars against the Vandals and the Ostrogoths, the latter of which were then in control of Rome. Procopius, Justinian’s campaign historian revealed that Justinian’s motivation was to "protect the Christians." By Christians he meant Catholics. He was protecting the Catholic faith against Arian invaders. The Arians taught that Christ was altogether human and not divine.

The Vandals were a teutonic race related to the Burgundians and Goths. In 439 the Vandals captured Carthage, the third most significant city in the Roman Empire, and held it until 533. The Vandals in the fifth century became the leading maritime power in the Mediterranean. In 455 their king, Gaiseric, conquered Rome and appropriated its wealth to himself. With the exception of one king, Hilderic, the Vandal rulers were Arians. When Hilderic’s cousin, Gelimer, imprisoned him, Justinian found an excuse to attack. Under Justinian’s general, Belisarius, the Vandals were overthrown in 536. "After this," the Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1963 edition, Vol. 22, p. 973, reports, "the Vandals disappeared from history." The second horn had been uprooted just two years prior to Pope Vigilius exercising the title of Universal Bishop which Emperor Justinian had accorded by the words creating him "head of all the holy churches." Another historical work described the demise of the Vandals in the words, they "disappeared as a mist" (C. W. Previté-Orton, Shorter Cambridge Medieval History, 4th edition, University Press 1953, Volume 1, p. 189).

But a third horn, the Ostrogoths, held a stranglehold on Italy, the conquest of which they had made at the behest of the Emperor Zeno in destruction of the Heruli tribe. In 538 Justinian’s forces evicted the Ostrogoths from Rome. They were

extinct before 554. (Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1990 edition, art. Goths)

The destroyers of the Heruli, Vandals and the Ostrogoths thought they were carrying out their own purposes. But in reality they were fulfilling the word God had given through His prophets, a word proclaimed at a time when none of these nations existed, a millennium prior to their prophesied demise.

It is little wonder that the apostle Peter wrote, as the date for his martyrdom approached:

We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (2 Peter 1:19—21)

Thomas Hodgkin in his history, Italy and Her Invaders, Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1899, Volume 4, page 250, rightly declared that Catholic soldiers "dug the grave of the Gothic monarchy." The last of the three uprooted horns had met its demise, never to rise again. The way was now open for the Papacy to rule western Europe. The 1260 year period of Papal rule had commenced.

In the destruction of the Ostrogoth kingdom we see God’s foreknowledge displayed, for all the advantages at first appeared to be on the side of the Ostrogoths, the army of Justinian being ripe for annihilation. Procopius in his History, Vol. 5, chapter 16, page 11, recorded that Emperor Justinian’s army, led by Belisarius, received scant opposition as they marched virtually unopposed into Rome in 536. But his army boasted no more than 5000. The Ostrogoths counter-attacked with 150,000 and laid siege to Rome. With a thirty-to-one superiority in forces the Ostrogoths appeared to possess every advantage.

But God had foreseen the fearful tactical error the forces of the Ostrogoths were to make. Reasoning that if they blocked the fourteen aqueducts which provided Rome’s water supply they would soon force Belisarius into surrender, the Ostrogoths had not counted the environmental consequences of their action. As Andrews University Professor of Church History, Dr. Mervyn Maxwell reported,

The torrents that poured from the broken aqueducts created a quagmire that bred malarial mosquitoes and caused epidemics. The large Gothic army was so grievously reduced by disease that in March 538 Belisarius with his small force was able to defeat it handily. (God Cares, Pacific Press, Boise, Idaho, 1981, Volume a, page 146)

That which no man could have foreseen, the God of heaven knew
 
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iamlamad

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The Reformers recognized antichrist with the benefit of the certainty of 20/20 historical hindsight.

What of similar certainty has today's true Church recognized?
Today's church believes in the future, which is the basis of prophecy.
What would prophecy be called if it was about the past? Oh, a history book!

People have been trying to fit Revelation into the history books since it was written/ All have failed, because the trumpets and vials are FUTURE events. The book that was in the hand of the Father still has two seals remaining before it can even be opened.
 
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keras

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I read those lengthy post of historical peoples and events. They are interesting to historians and not much to anyone else.
Because what happened in the past can be [with a few tweaks] made to look like Bible prophecy fulfilled, this in no way means that it is. For two reasons:
1/ Paul said that what happened in the past was symbolic of what will happen in the future. He was referring to the Israelite dramas, but the principle stands.
2/ Revelation is a Book about the end times, the last few years of this Church age, the context of Revelation 17 is surely not that of the Middle ages!

Preterist beliefs mean that basically, we have no future. And even if a preterist has to agree that Jesus is yet to Return, a sudden appearance back to earth, without all that is prophesied to happen before that glorious event, is contradictory to a large amount of scripture.
 
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jgr

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Today's church believes in the future, which is the basis of prophecy.
What would prophecy be called if it was about the past? Oh, a history book!

People have been trying to fit Revelation into the history books since it was written/ All have failed, because the trumpets and vials are FUTURE events. The book that was in the hand of the Father still has two seals remaining before it can even be opened.
Of course there is much that is future; that is indisputable. But does that mean that we abandon the truths of the past? Does not understanding the truths of the past add legitimacy to what we believe about the future?
 
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Of course there is much that is future; that is indisputable. But does that mean that we abandon the truths of the past? Does not understanding the truths of the past add legitimacy to what we believe about the future?
Agreed. But if we wish to take a prophecy and say it was fulfilled, it must fit perfectly. For example, no one ever, not even one person has ever shown the world when the 7 trumpet judgments came, and then followed by the 7 vials. No one. Not ever.
 
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Let's start with Daniel 7.
Let's start by you showing is when in history the 7 trumpets were sounded, followed by the 7 vials. If this is history, it should be easy to spot.

For example, when did the nuclear exchange of the first three trumpets happen? Remember Chernobyl and wormwood? How could anyone miss such an event or series of events that would pollute 1/3 of the sea and 1/3 of the fresh water?
 
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jgr

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They are interesting to historians and not much to anyone else.

You have expressed our affliction quite succinctly. We've abandoned our historic roots. We claim to be Protestants, but have lost sight of what we were protesting. We've ceased to seek and acknowledge prophetic fulfillment, and have denied it with speculation, presumption, and conjecture.

If the true Church of the late Medieval period had believed as you do, there would have been no Reformers or Reformation, and this forum would not exist today.
 
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jgr

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Let's start by you showing is when in history the 7 trumpets were sounded, followed by the 7 vials. If this is history, it should be easy to spot.

For example, when did the nuclear exchange of the first three trumpets happen? Remember Chernobyl and wormwood? How could anyone miss such an event or series of events that would pollute 1/3 of the sea and 1/3 of the fresh water?
None of that is in Daniel 7.
 
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jgr said in post #256:

There is no mention in Daniel 7 of the seven heads on the beast in Revelation 17.

That's right.

But note that Daniel 7 can still refer to four of those seven heads.

For the seven heads of Revelation's "beast" in its empire aspect (Revelation 17:3, Revelation 13:1) represent seven empires (Revelation 17:9-10): Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and (possibly) Islam. The first five had fallen by the time of the apostle John in the first century AD: "five are fallen" (Revelation 17:10, Revelation 1:1b-2). The sixth (Rome) existed at the time of John: "one is" (Revelation 17:10). The seventh (possibly Islam) had not come by the time of John: "the other is not yet come" (Revelation 17:10). The empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will be a different, still-future, eighth head (Revelation 17:11), which will be a revival of one of five empires which had fallen by the time of the apostle John (Revelation 17:8,10-11). It will be a revival of the empire of Babylon. The Antichrist will transform the present-day, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq) into the capital of his world empire, only to see his city of Babylon destroyed at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Isaiah 13).

Before the Second Coming, when the world is brought into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and the Antichrist, during the future Antichrist's literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist will build their main temple in the city of Babylon. For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times.

The Antichrist may claim to be Nebuchadnezzar returned, and so reinstitute the system which Nebuchadnezzar set up whereby everyone had to worship an image or be killed (Daniel 3, Revelation 13:15). The Antichrist may also claim to be, at the same time, the return of Nimrod (the founder of Babylon: Genesis 10:8-10), and Hammurabi, and Asoka, and other famous rulers of the past. For he may claim that he has had many different "past lives" as various "enlightened" rulers.

Besides building a main temple in Babylon, the Antichrist will also sit (at least one time) in a future, third Jewish temple building in Jerusalem, and declare himself God there (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). The Antichrist could also sit (at least one time) in other religions' holiest shrines, and declare himself to be God there as well. For example, he could also sit in Islam's Kaaba in Mecca, in the Sikhs' Golden Temple in Amritsar, in Catholicism's St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, etc.

jgr said in post #256:

There is no mention in Daniel 7 of the seven heads on the beast in Revelation 17.

Regarding Daniel 7, note that there the first 3 beasts (Daniel 7:3-6) can represent the ancient empires of Babylon (lion), Medo-Persia (bear), and Greece (leopard). The 4th beast, or 4th "king"/"kingdom" (Daniel 7:17,23), represents the ancient Roman empire. And the 10 horns/kings which come out of it (Daniel 7:7,24) could represent 10 major kingdoms/nations today which came out the former territory of the Roman empire, which consisted not only of Western Europe, but also the Middle East and North Africa. These 10 nations could be Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria, and Syria. The 10 part-iron/part-clay toes of Daniel 2:42 could represent the same thing as the 10 horns of Daniel 7:7. The Europeans could be the iron and the Arabs and Turks could be the clay. In Daniel 2:43, the inability of the iron to mix with the clay could represent how, for example, there are many Turks living in Germany, but they remain separated in ghettoes within German cities. Similarly, there are many Arab Algerians living in France, but they remain separated in ghettoes within French cities.

But despite this social separation, which could endure indefinitely, the people of Western Europe on the one hand, and the people of the Middle East and North Africa on the other, could still one day put aside their political separation and become united into one federation. For Daniel 2:42 refers to the 10 as a singular "kingdom". The person who will bring this about could be the future Antichrist.

The arising of the "little" horn (Daniel 7:8, Daniel 8:9), which is "diverse" from the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24), could mean that the future Antichrist will arise from a little country. And the little horn arising from "among" the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:8) could mean that the Antichrist's country's territory used to be part of the Roman empire. And before that, it was part of one of the 4 Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded the Greek empire of Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). The territory of these 4 kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from the little country of Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

The Antichrist could start out by claiming to be a Baathist. After becoming the leader of Lebanon, he could peacefully gain control of a Baathist federation of 3 of the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24): Egypt, "toward the south" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9), and Iraq and Syria, "toward the east" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9). This federation could also include the minor nation of a United Palestine, that is, a defeated Israel, "the pleasant land" (Daniel 8:9).

This Baathist federation could be put together in our future by an Iraqi Baathist General who could completely defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), but who could then mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:19) shortly before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45). Years later, when the Antichrist gains control of all 10 of the major nations, he could appoint kings over them (Revelation 17:12) who will defer to him (Revelation 17:13), like how when Napoleon gained control of different nations, he appointed kings over them who would defer to him.

jgr said in post #256:

There is no mention in Daniel 7 of the woman in Revelation 17.

But note that Daniel 7 does refer to the ten kings who will destroy the woman.

For Revelation's symbolic woman "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents all of fallen mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3) and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). And the 10 kings of the future Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the nations (Revelation 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number 6 in English gematria), at the time of the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Revelation 16:17) of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31). They could do this under the direction of Lucifer/Satan (Isaiah 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

Near the very end of the future Tribulation, Lucifer (employing the ancient lies of Gnosticism) could say to the Antichrist and his 10 kings something like: "Our great battle against the evil, tyrant god YHWH is about to begin [Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19], a battle which we will win, and so we will be able to escape YHWH's prison house, this material universe, and return to the wholly-spiritual Pleroma [i.e. Heaven]. So let us now destroy this prison cell, this foul planet, and let us, as it were, burn up all the gewgaws which we have hung upon our cell walls. Let us burn up all our great cities, all our magnificent systems. Let us break all our chains of attachment to this vile, physical realm, that we might more freely ascend back to our rightful place in the Pleroma [cf. Isaiah 14:13-14]".

Of course this will be a lie. For at His Second Coming, Jesus Christ (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will completely defeat all the unsaved armies of the world, arrayed against YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19-21). And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the Bottomless Pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-6, Isaiah 14:15), a time period commonly called the Millennium. During that time, Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:35, Isaiah 51:3). And after the Millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), God will create a New Heaven (a new 1st heaven, a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a New Earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with saved humanity on the New Earth (Revelation 21:2-4).
 
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