Does going against John Calvin mean going against God?

[Saint Steven]

It's the only way they can do it. If ECT and predestination (no free will) is more sacred to you than the idea that God is love and loves all equally, then you'll find it easy to discard the latter if it becomes an obstacle to your preferred doctrines. Calvanists know, like anyone else, that the idea of predestination to hell is not a loving action but instead of giving this up they choose (oddly, as they have no free will) instead to abandon the simple biblical truth that God loves all and is not willing that any should perish.

Yes, I agree.
And this view represents the ultimate in religious bigotry, snobbery and prejudice.
That God WILLINGLY chose the vast majority for unspeakable eternal torture as the consequence for his not choosing them to be saved. What sort of god would do such a thing? A monstrous evil to falsely accuse God of.

 

[Hmm]

And this view represents the ultimate in religious bigotry, snobbery and prejudice

I think because I've read a number of testimonies of ex-Calvanists on Reddit where they describe the severe intellectual and moral dilemma that arose out their Calvanist beliefs - God loves some and hates others before they were even born etc etc - which only ended once they were exposed to more enlightened/sane views of God, I mainly see it as a question of education and experience.

That God WILLINGLY chose the vast majority for unspeakable eternal torture as the consequence for his not choosing them to be saved. What sort of god would do such a thing? A monstrous evil to falsely accuse God of.

Yes, it is a monstrous image that, in the case of the ex-Calvanists I mentioned above, they tried to keep in abeyance but they could only do this for so long and at an ever-increasing cost to their mental well-being - they only found mental peace once they learnt enough to have the confidence to reject such an image and the knowledge and experience to embrace a more loving, just and rational God. A calmer God!

 

[Derf]

But if he was in the right, why did he flee Egypt?

Acts 9:25 (KJV) Then the disciples took him by night, and let [him] down by the wall in a basket.

If Paul was in the right, why did he flee Damascus?

 

[Saint Steven]

Acts 9:25 (KJV) Then the disciples took him by night, and let [him] down by the wall in a basket.

If Paul was in the right, why did he flee Damascus?

Touché. - lol
They were planning to kill him. Not likely he could reason with them.
Does that apply to Moses though? Murder is murder, and rightly punished by law.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Was it ok for the Israelites to kill the Canaanites?

Good question.

Are you aware there are two distinctive covenants in the bible?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

WWAD?

What would Abraham do? - lol

Inspires a question: Will christianity ever move past the cross? Death is there, but where's the Resurrection?

 

[Saint Steven]

Inspires a question: Will christianity ever move past the cross? Death is there, but where's the Resurrection?

Ultimate Redemption (UR) to the rescue. - lol
Where, O death, is your victory? (1 Corinthians 15:54-56)

 

[Derf]

Good question.

Are you aware there are two distinctive covenants in the bible?

Probably more than 2.

 

[Derf]

Touché. - lol
They were planning to kill him. Not likely he could reason with them.
Does that apply to Moses though? Murder is murder, and rightly punished by law.

Self defense, or third-person defense is NOT murder. But can you imagine what would have happened to a slave in, say, 1830, who defended a fellow slave in mortal danger by killing the foreman on a plantation?

 

[Saint Steven]

Self defense, or third-person defense is NOT murder. But can you imagine what would have happened to a slave in, say, 1830, who defended a fellow slave in mortal danger by killing the foreman on a plantation?

Since Moses fled the country, it seems he didn't think he had a case. Even though he lived in the palace.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Probably more than 2.

So there's your answer. If you don't want to discuss it, then neither do I. lol.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Ultimate Redemption (UR) to the rescue. - lol
Where, O death, is your victory? (1 Corinthians 15:54-56)

This reply is not a surprise.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Which is the antithesis of libertarian freewill, because when our theology removes the ability to do otherwise everything gets boiled down to the will of the only being who can make choices freely. Unless like many Calvinists you also believed that God doesn’t possess libertarian freedom in himself.

I'm having a bit of a hard time finding cogency in your comment here. Not only is it inaccurate, but it is irrelevant to my comment to which you react.
Mark Quayle said: ↑
They will be undone. Terrified. They will acknowledge the obvious, because they cannot do otherwise.
When I see out of the corner of my eye a snake, frog or a mouse moving, I might have an automatic reaction before good sense and 'freewill' takes over. But if I am guilty before God, and am suddenly thrust before his terrifying gaze in his full glory, power and purity, which puts the horror of what I have done in full light, and know full well, without need to consider it, that justice is about to happen upon me, 'freewill' will have little to do with my reaction.

If there is a Calvinist who doesn't believe in God's own libertarian freewill, my guess is that either you or they have some definition for libertarian freewill that I don't, and/or you are misinterpreting something they might say, for eg like how I might say: "God does what he does, not as humans choose to do, but by his very nature. He needn't consider and choose, but for him, to choose is to do, just as to know is to do." This whole paragraph, by necessity of our small-sighted vocabulary and understanding, refers to God anthropomorphically.

 

[Mark Quayle]

That’s an important addition because (under Calvinism) lost sinners can’t accept Gods cynical “offer” of believing and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit without being regenerated first. Right?

Wrong. Calvinism doesn't believe God's offer is "cynical". It is genuine. If one was not to reject God's offer (as they all will do, apart from regeneration via the Spirit of God), but would accept the offer, they would be saved. By the way, what do you mean by gift of the Holy Spirit? —there
is a huge difference between 'receiving' the Spirit of God, and 'accepting' the Spirit of God. 'Receiving' need not be an act of the will of the receptacle.

Sinners according to Calvinists don’t believe in order to receive, instead the orders reversed. Sinners in the hands of an angry God can’t believe and they can’t love God until he believes in and loves them first. @Saint Steven doesn’t share your presupposition though, not so far as I’ve read.

What?? God believes in someone?? Here is an odd theology. God has faith in us? What —does the Bible teach that humanity has integrity and strength (apart from the work of God in them) which God respects? —And you say Calvinism believes this?

You are right, however, that Arminians have the order reversed from Calvinists, in that Calvinists say the regeneration comes first and salvific faith as a direct result of the Spirit of God living within the believer, with all the other results of regeneration and faith and the work of God —conviction, confession, repentance, obedience, works, joy etc.

 

[Mark Quayle]

According to Calvinism God hated sinful humanity an eternity before sinful humanity hated God, and now there’s no break in the deadlock until God behaves like God and shows his trademark mercy to the lost and incapacitated sinners.

As if time had anything to do with eternity, (my personal little theme, there, haha), but your construction is not how Calvinism thinks: You put things as if humanity was of and in itself a reality on the level that God is, for God to respect as such. I.e. you look at this all backwards, as do all Arminians. God MADE humanity, not even as a homogenous group, from which to choose the Elect and the Reprobate, but that he made each individual for his particular purpose. You say according to Calvinism he hated them before they existed. Just when do you think they existed? Do you think Calvinism teaches God stewed in his hatred for these his enemies for eons? —the question never even comes up! There is no such construction. It seems only a logical notion when one esteems humanity to have value in and of itself, quite apart from any considerations of God's use for them.

But God does what he does in his own way; there is no deadlock but in the minds of Arminian leaning, who consider man (if I were to extrapolate their logic) to be a intrinsic member of divinity.

Saint Steven’s faith, hope and doctrine is that God will behave like God and extend the opportunity for life, love and communion with Him, an opportunity that you believe he’s always denied to some and continues to deny going into forever.

No. It is not denied anyone. If they will ("whosoever will, may come") the mercy is there, they may receive it. But we won't; we all, even the elect, reject it unless God changes our hearts.

If however there’s absolutely zero chance at life or forgiveness for these people, then God has forestalled and ultimately withheld the deepest depth of his mercy, which leads to the charge that God’s been hateful, capricious and arbitrary in how he’s dealt with humankind.

"Chance" is only an illusion in the mind, to explain the unknown. God doesn't give chances. Opportunity, yes. Your construction (which you are claiming is Calvinism) is false. One poster here has an apt saying as his signature line, to the effect that to the Reformed, Calvinism is good news of God's mercy; but to the Arminian, it is capricious hatefulness. Calvinism teaches that nobody deserves God's mercy —hence, grace— Arminianism teaches that everybody deserves God's respect. God owes us nothing.

Calvinists being committed to their doctrines can’t agree with the above, nor can they refute the points since they follow logically from their own theology.

Ha! No, it doesn't follow logically from their own theology. You take only a part of the theology, neglecting the rest, and what you do take, you take from the false POV of the Arminian. No need to refute the absurd, a strawman at best.

 

[Saint Steven]

This reply is not a surprise.

Seemed as if you were purposely setting me up to make the point. - lol
Thanks. Hard to resist.

 

[Mark Quayle]

As we’ve exchanged before @Mark Quayle, and since I’ve read from most of the big name Calvinists, I know that the only reply they produce from here on out is to punt towards mystery and their own grand piety at having believed such sad things (e.g. moral incapacity to respond positively to God from birth.)

Even Arminianism rejects Pelagian doctrine —that man is capable of "responding positively to God" quite alone from the work of God. But here you are, calling even Arminianism, nevermind the things taught by the Word of God itself concerning the depravity of man, 'sad' that one would believe them. Are you Pelagian, not even needing "prevenient grace", to bring one's corrupt will to need Christ? If so, you "have whereof to boast".

"Punt"? You pose a strawman and then claim that 'the big name Calvinists' only reply to your strawman is to punt towards mystery? If indeed these big name Calvinists were responding to your logic, I can see them appealing to mystery, since you don't seem to understand anything else they say, or even to pay attention to their Biblical precepts and thinking, or to try to follow their logic. But my guess is that they never heard of you, and are not answering your extrapolations, but someone else, and a whole different line of thinking. (I would be curious to see an example where a big-name Calvinist has done this, in answer to your line of logic. —Perhaps you can provide me with a link.)

 

[prophecy_uk]

If John Calvin, had honesty, He would place himself on the ladder of God, ( remember Jacobs ladder?) and this is how it works, Israel had many teachers who deceived and murdered their warners from God ( those warners all spoke of the days coming of the Messiah and how these same deceivers would rise the people up against their own Messiah.) The warners of God had the Spirit and they had the sufferings of Christ in them, till they died, and the feeling of Christs sufferings to come, which they prophesied of.

Now Christ came to earth, and the rulers, Pharisees etc, did what leaders of the people do, teach lies and murder the good, then it was fulfilled that they are removed forever ( they just did not know it yet)

Now, we remember the testimony again, how the Apostles were in the same way all murdered for the testimony of Christ they held, the sufferings of Christ, the meekness, the humbleness, and the words which others hate you for.

If anyone on earth, could be honest, they put the order of the true testimonies ( they are in the word of God that cannot be added or taken from) and all who do not acknowledge that, that is what we are saved by, and not by themselves, or any words they think they can create, are not only incorrect, but are the very same antichrists that always were in this world, all along doing their master class of deceit and turning from the truth of God.


The Apostles are the only example, they are chosen by God, in the scriptures, how can anyone add or take from them and be thought of, as true?


All our own talk, own words, and anyone elses wise quoted words, give no belief in Christ, as all that Jesus spoke was the fulfilling of what He came to do,, it was finished, all that was left was the devil to go out and deceive the whole world, and his deceiver antichrists teaching what now?


1 Corinthians 4:11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Not meaning to write about anyone in the topic (because it’s usually unhelpful,) Calvinists are often guilty of arrogance and theatre. They’ve used their ugly, counter intuitive beliefs to exalt themselves over their fellow man, and most shamefully above Christians (usually in the form of their spiteful treatment of the much maligned Arminians.)

Or so it seems, from the POV of those who exalt themselves above the Gospel of Grace.

Those who admit to their inability to respond positively to God, apart from the work of God in them, are the most humble people I know.

No doubt, the confidence, purely in the will of God, and the work of God on their behalf, and in the knowledge that God will accomplish all he set out to do, and the happiness at the thought of God's happiness with his plan, and the confidence one gains from the truth, comes across as arrogance to those who claim self-ability, but know somewhere inside that they are not of themselves to be trusted with such a grand task.

 

[prophecy_uk]

Mark Quayle: "No doubt, the confidence, purely in the will of God, and the work of God on their behalf, and in the knowledge that God will accomplish all he set out to do, and the happiness at the thought of God's happiness with his plan, and the confidence one gains from the truth, comes across as arrogance to those who claim self-ability, but know somewhere inside that they are not of themselves to be trusted with such a grand task."


Anyone showing example in words, is truthful, or the work that Jesus was given by the Father to finish, bears witness of Him ?

That is how we know who is fake, who talks and does nothing, just like the Pharisees, who do not lift one finger to do anything good.

But all their works they do for to be seen of men.

That is why, it is told, we are cursed to trust in man..



John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

John 5:33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

Jeremiah 17:5 Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

Jeremiah 17:7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the Lord, and whose hope the Lord is.

Psalm 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
5 Happy is he that hath the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope is in the Lord his God:
6 Which made heaven, and earth, the sea, and all that therein is: which keepeth truth for ever:

Isaiah 2:22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of ?

Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
23 That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity.

Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.