Does God Want Man to be God?

[oikonomia]

That post was very long and all over the place. Not sure if it's intentional, but you give the impression that you really don't want anyone to reply to you because they wouldn't even know where to begin.

I want replies.
I am just very verbose sometimes.

Yeah, satan works to keep man from God, but that's irrelevant to the fact that he's constantly working to make man worship himself as God, to worship other men as God, to worship anything else but God.

This is short and to the point. And I agree.

So, like I said, it doesn't make sense for God to desire man to be God.

Okay. Let me ask you this at least.

Does God desire that some overcome and sit on the throne with Christ?
"He who overcomes, to him I will give to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat with My Father on His throne." (Rev. 3:21)
Is that something God wants or that some power grab of presumptous men?

Allow me again. Does God want His overcoming saints to reign with Christ over the nations?
"And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations and he will shepherd them as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces, as I also have received from My Father." (Rev. 2:27)
This also is not a power grab of men desiring worhip but the reward of Christ that we be like Him.

Yes, Christ in us is significant. Doesn't make us God.

Yes, we cannot be the uncreated Godhead.
But God's eternal purpose is to dispense His life into man that we live God, God live in and through us.

This we should encrease our realization of if we intend to receive the whole counsel of God.

Yes, He wants us to be His children. Doesn't make us God.

This is why I asked if we can say we are intended by Him to be of the [for lack of a better word] species of God.

The children of cats are cats.
The children of gerbils are gerbils.
The children of whales are whales.
The children of dolphins are dolphins
And the children of human beings are human beings.

Now we are the children of God. And it is not yet manifested what we will be.
We know that if He is manifested we will be like Him for we will see Him even as He is.

In the same way as above - the children of God are what . . . ?
In a real sense we cannot deny that God's children are of the "species" of thier begetting parent.
Men made the children of God are in some real sense God.
Do you see?

 

[oikonomia]

Here's the Deal, I Refer to Jesus as my LORD and Savior...I'm aware that he's GOD the SON but we bring glory to Jesus that the father might be glorified. Have a Good Night and GOD Bless.

It is indeed true that the many NT references are to God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ in the New Testament.
And I would happily acknowledge we see far more references to the Lord Jesus and God the Father.

But this is because the Triune God is on a journey, so to speak, out from Himself INTO humanity.
The Father is the Source.
The Son is the Course or the Channel.
And the Holy Spirit is the Flow, the Transmission.

The goal is that God would dispense Himself into man.
God the Father is like the power plant in the distance and the source of the electricity.
God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ is like the cables connecting the power source to the homes.
And God the Holy Spirit is the flow, the transmission of the power from the source through the cables INTO the homes.

The Triune God in what He is can never be seperated from what He is doing.

But in this dispensing of God into man, Yes, the greater number of verses refer to God the Father and the Lord Jesus.

 

[oikonomia]

In Romans 7:25-8:2, Paul contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin and contrasted the Law of the Spirit of Life with the law of sin and death, so he equated the Law of God with Law of the Spirit of Life.

No, this is not adaquate.
In Romans 7 and 8 there are these distinct laws.

1.) The law of God above and outside of man.
2.) The law of the man's mind who wants to keep the law of God.
3.) The law of sin and death in man's fallen body forbidding man to fulfill his desire of the law of his mind TO keep the law of God.
4.) The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus which is the stronger and the strongEST law empowering man to fulfill the law of God by regulating his life as he walks by the Spirit.

No, the law of God or the law of Moses is not the law of the Spirit of life.
The walkink by the law of the indwelling Spirit enables the redeemed man to learn to fulfill the just requirement of the law of God.

He does so, (for this is a law of a living Person's life) by freeing from the law of sin and death pulling man down every time, dragging him down to not be able to fulfill the law of his mind to keep the law of God.

"For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death.
For the law [of God] being impossible in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son [with whom is the law of His life] in the likeness of the flesh of sin and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh.

That the righteous requirement of the law [of God] might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to th eflesh, bur according to the spirit." (Rom. 8:2-4)

You see withing the regenerated man is the Spirit of Christ who is joined with his human spirit to become ONE mingled spirit.
"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit." (1 Cor. 6:17)

God is actually made one part of our being in regeneration.
The Spirit of God (Christ) (the Spirit of Christ) witnesses and leads in a joint matter with our regenerated human spirit that we have an organic relationship in life with the Father as child.

"For as many are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
For you have not received a spirit of slavery to fear again, but you have received a spirit of sonship in which we cry, Abba Father.
The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are the children of God." (vs. 14-16)

Why do you want to make the law of the Spirit of life the law of Moses?
Is that what you are proposing there?

 

[oikonomia]

Furthermore, it says that there is now therefore no condemnation for those who abide in Christ, and in 1 John 2:6, those who abide in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked, which was in obedience to God’s law.

The life of Christ has its law of His life.
If we learn to abide in Him - He lives again.

So God’s law is His instructions for how to abide in Christ though following his example.

I think we should not think to imitate Christ is to try of our own power to be like Him.
This is like the poodle imitating the walking of a man by kind of walking on its hind legs.

Our "imitating" Him is by allowing Him to live through us.
We walk by the Spirit.
We learn to remain, abide, linger in His presence turning our mind to Christ with and in our human spirit.

This is the aviding "lawlessness" in First John.
EveryTHING that is begotten of God overcomes the world.

The THING which has been begotten of God is the regenerated human spirit the kernel and nucleus of man.
Because it has been made alive and joined to the Lord as one spirit (1 Cor. 6:17) it is that part that overcomes the world.

"For everything that has been begotten of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that overcomes the world - our faith." (1 John 5:4)

I believe and it is my experience that the "everything" there is the regenerated human spirit which we must learn to turn our minds to.
There is the faith that is victorious. Sure defeat awaits us of we do not learn to abide in the Spirit with our spirit.

We need to be strengthened INTO that inner realm. Paul, also like John, pioneering in this walk petitioned that we would be STRENTHENED into the inner man.

"For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father, . . . That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be STRENGTHENED with power though His Spirit into the inner man., . . . " (Eph. 3:14,16)


The inner man, I believe, surely means that "everything" that has been begotten of God which also overcomes the world.
We as Christians, must be energized into that realm, strengthened into the sphere, setting the mind on the mingled spirit.
There the faith enables us to overcome.

And learning to remain and abide there Christ spreads out into all of our heart, making His home more and more.

". . . to be strengthened into the inner man, that Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith" (vs.16b,17)

Furthermore, in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Law of God, in John 16:13, the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth, and in Psalms 119:142, the Law of God is truth.

While Paul wrote much of the NT, he did not pioneer his own doctrine, but rather what he taught was based on what was taught in the OT. Likewise Jesus taught how to abide in him by spending his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Law of God by word and by example.

Surely Paul received his revelation directly from Christ and God.
He was not taught it by man.
He did not receive his apostleship from man.

It pleased God to reveal His Son IN Paul.
The Judiazers tried to bring the Galatian churches back into the slavery of Law keeping as the Old Testament saints tried and failed to do.

Paul pioneered the walk by the Spirit, the abiding in the living indwelling Victor the Son of God.
It pleased God to reveal His Son to Paul in Paul first. Then to reveal His Son in Paul to the world and especially the church.

"But when it pleased God, who set me apart from my mother's womb and called me by His grace, To reveal His Son in me that I might announce Him as the gospel among the Gentiles, immediately I did not confer with flesh and blood, Neither did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, . . . " (Gal. 1:15-17a)

It was no long he that lived, but Christ that lived within him. (Gal. 2:20)
This must be the common enjoyment of all Christians - living in a union with Christ within- Christ being REVEALED in us.

 

[oikonomia]

While Paul wrote much of the NT, he did not pioneer his own doctrine, but rather what he taught was based on what was taught in the OT. Likewise Jesus taught how to abide in him by spending his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Law of God by word and by example.

What does it mean to you for Paul to say that we are not under law but under grace? (Romans 6:14)

 

[oikonomia]

I want to pause and thank everyone for their thoughtful and valuable contributions.
I am sorry I tend to be verbose and wordy.
I think for the most part we are edifying each other and building up each other's faith in spite of some variations on understandings.

This is a win / win scenario imo.

 

[Samson2021]

So that, indeed, the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. One God. Holy Trinity.

This is what has been confessed and believed by Jesus' Church since the beginning. For the Scriptures bear witness to these things, as shown already. And the ancient fathers, heirs of the apostles' teaching, have demonstrated in their writings, and which the Church has formally put down in confession and creed in order to clearly articulate truth against the error of heretics.

Interesting that you should use the word Heretic here, in that the heretics were either excommunicated or banished from the church, or killed
by the very same people who espoused a Trinity doctrine as ultimate truth. Indeed the Catholics in the dark ages along with the Spanish
inquisition always sought out those that taught of a Son who became a God and you too can follow his steps to become like Him.
But this teaching upset their apple cart in that they wanted themselves to be over the people and be intermediators between Jesus and
his converts. Lords over the people, truly on display for all to see today especially in the catholic realm.
Born again individuals belong to Jesus Christ, not to any man. But in those days if you thought that way you were sentenced to death
for heresy by the very people who claimed to be Gods emissaries on earth.
Not a very good example of humility, mercy, godliness, kindness, and love. Indeed just the opposite.

The truth of sonship for man to become what the Lord Jesus is is fact. He was born of a woman as a child who grew in wisdom
and favor with God,
and once His life was laid down as the Lamb of God He was glorified to the state of eternal life and a life giving Spirit, Thus a God.
We are to follow Him to become like Him and be filled with all the fullness of God just as He.
So to answer the original question does God want man to become God? Yes!!!!!!! Although man can never be the Only true God and neither
could Jesus, but all can be life giving Spirits that have eternal life. God called Him a Son and He calls us sons.
"I shall be to Him a Father and He shall be to me a Son."

 

[Trusting in Him]

I believe that we are clearly meant to be partakers of the divine nature, by the indewelling of God's holy spirit, but that does not imply that we can be compared to God. Our imparted wisdom comes from the indewelling of His Holy Spirit, which we learn from the bible is because the Holy Spirit is The Spirit of Wisdom. Jesus, Himself tells us that without Him we can do nothing, He also chooses those who truely accept Him as Lord and Master of our lives to be His bride and the bible tells us that the bride is to be under the authority of her Husband. We should not think more of ourselves more that we ought, for the bible tells us that is the route to pride and pride come before a fall.

 

[oikonomia]

The truth of sonship for man to become what the Lord Jesus is is fact. He was born of a woman as a child who grew in wisdom
and favor with God, and once His life was laid down as the Lamb of God He was glorified to the state of eternal life and a life giving Spirit, Thus a God. We are to follow Him to become like Him and be filled with all the fullness of God just as He.
So to answer the original question does God want man to become God? Yes!!!!!!! Although man can never be the Only true God and neither
could Jesus, but all can be life giving Spirits that have eternal life. God called Him a Son and He calls us sons.
"I shall be to Him a Father and He shall be to me a Son."

It sounds to me like you believe that because Jesus is our Savior He cannot be the one true God Himself.
Is this a fair interpretation of your belief?

It sounds to me like you believe that because we are to be like Him, it follows that He cannot be the one true God Himself.
Is this a fair representation of your thoughts?

My God and Savior is the man who died and rose and is the Elder Brother of all who receive Him as Lord.

 

[oikonomia]

I believe that we are clearly meant to be partakers of the divine nature, by the indewelling of God's holy spirit, but that does not imply that we can be compared to God. Our imparted wisdom comes from the indewelling of His Holy Spirit, which we learn from the bible is because the Holy Spirit is The Spirit of Wisdom. Jesus, Himself tells us that without Him we can do nothing, He also chooses those who truely accept Him as Lord and Master of our lives to be His bride and the bible tells us that the bride is to be under the authority of her Husband. We should not think more of ourselves more that we ought, for the bible tells us that is the route to pride and pride come before a fall.

Thankyou.

 

[Samson2021]

It sounds to me like you believe that because Jesus is our Savior He cannot be the one true God Himself.
Is this a fair interpretation of your belief?

It sounds to me like you believe that because we are to be like Him, it follows that He cannot be the one true God Himself.
Is this a fair representation of your thoughts?

My God and Savior is the man who died and rose and is the Elder Brother of all who receive Him as Lord.

You would be correct in that His GOD and Father was the ONLY True God.
Rev 3:14 In Jesus' own words. ".........."These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true WITNESS, The BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD."

How does the One true God refer to Himself as the faithful witness of Himself as He already said if He bore witness of Himself it would
not be true. John 5:31. So His witness was of the One and only true God He spoke of in John 17:3, and the PLAN or WORD that God was
sending to the world through Him. Sonship through the Son. The Gospel.

Furthermore, He refers to Himself as the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD. He does not lie so try to explain how the beginning of the CREATION of God is the same Only True God.

Jesus was the first man to receive life within himself from His Father, thus the first ever to be born again. He was the only begotten of
the Father both in bodily form and in the Spirit. And as He was begotten of the Father He cannot be the Father. He was the first example
of the word=plan that was from the beginning, which would grow through sufferings and correcting into the very image of His Father,
a self sustained, eternal, life giving Spirit.
The first to be begotten in Spirit by the Father and the last first. The first Lamb of God and the last Lamb of God as there is no need
for another, nor is there any name in heaven or earth by which a man must be saved. Thus the first and the last by 2 different measures.

As the beginning of the creation of God it is God who is the Saviour of ALL men, but as the Lamb of God, which God Himself provided,
Jesus is also our Saviour in that He loved us enough to lay down His life for us, His friends.

Numbers 23:19 God is NOT A MAN..................... Jesus was! Again, God cannot die as He always has had life within Himself,
Jesus did DIE as this was the will of the Father from before the foundation of the world. Are we really to not consider Abraham and Isaac
as an allegory to God and Jesus. Isn't it plain enough that Abraham sacrificing Himself was nothing, but the sacrifice of the
one that He loved the most, Isaac, was a horrid thought but He was willing to do it because God asked, and He had faith that God could
raise Him from the dead. God in like fashion crucified His only begotten Son whom He loved dearly, for our sin. He did not crucify Himself,
but rather that which He Loved more.
"The Father LOVETH the Son and hath given all things into His hands." Again, one is not given what one already possesses.

You should do a word study on the word LOGOS. Translated into 38 different english words in the NASB and 25 different
words in the KJV.

Vines expository Dictionary says LOGOS is "the expression of thought, as embodying a concept or idea."
Britannica- reason, plan, word.

Jesus preached the WORD(plan) to anyone that would listen, and that WORD(plan) was Sonship within the Kingdom of God. He was a living,
flesh example of Gods plan, reason, word. And became the first to complete the PLAN at His glorification as He was declared to be a God
by His Father. Heb 1:8 But unto the Son He (God) saith Thy throne O God is forever and ever........... This completed the first Son and the
pattern of the "WORD was GOD" in that He became a God. Just not the ONLY true God of which there can never be but ONE.

We are to follow His example in order to come to the same reward. This is the PLAN- Sonship. Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation
of the creature(creation) waits for the manifestation of the sons of God. A work still in progress.

NO one comes to the Son except the Father draw Him. In your doctrine they are one and the same, or different aspects of the same being.
This is a false concept.

.John 6:45.....And they shall all be taught of God. Therefore every man that hath heard, and learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Matt 11:27 "All things are delivered unto me of MY FATHER: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man
the Father, save the Son, and He to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him."

Your version: the Son reveals Himself by acting as the Father, then reveals Himself as the Father. Thus a split personality.
There is no confusion in Matt 11:27 there are 2 different entities, a Father and a Son, both of which are eternal Spirits,
that cannot die.

Lastly if your God is Jesus then you do not know the Father as of yet, for Jesus said His Father was His God AS WELL AS OURS. John 20:17

 

[ViaCrucis]

Interesting that you should use the word Heretic here, in that the heretics were either excommunicated or banished from the church, or killed
by the very same people who espoused a Trinity doctrine as ultimate truth. Indeed the Catholics in the dark ages along with the Spanish
inquisition always sought out those that taught of a Son who became a God and you too can follow his steps to become like Him.
But this teaching upset their apple cart in that they wanted themselves to be over the people and be intermediators between Jesus and
his converts. Lords over the people, truly on display for all to see today especially in the catholic realm.
Born again individuals belong to Jesus Christ, not to any man. But in those days if you thought that way you were sentenced to death
for heresy by the very people who claimed to be Gods emissaries on earth.
Not a very good example of humility, mercy, godliness, kindness, and love. Indeed just the opposite.

The truth of sonship for man to become what the Lord Jesus is is fact. He was born of a woman as a child who grew in wisdom
and favor with God,
and once His life was laid down as the Lamb of God He was glorified to the state of eternal life and a life giving Spirit, Thus a God.
We are to follow Him to become like Him and be filled with all the fullness of God just as He.
So to answer the original question does God want man to become God? Yes!!!!!!! Although man can never be the Only true God and neither
could Jesus, but all can be life giving Spirits that have eternal life. God called Him a Son and He calls us sons.
"I shall be to Him a Father and He shall be to me a Son."

The word "heretic" is a biblical term. That in the middle ages the political powers of Europe frequently made being a heretic a capital offense, and that heretics were unjustly persecuted, doesn't change the core meaning of the term and its valid use in the context of theological conversation.

As I see it, this is just an attempt at poisoning the well.

Further, I acknowledge my own culpability in engaging in debate on this subject already, which I probably shouldn't have done as this isn't the place for that debate to take place. I don't know where else on CF such debate would be permissible to continue at this time, but it isn't here.

If there is, I would be more than happy to continue this side-discussion on that subject there.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[oikonomia]

You would be correct in that His GOD and Father was the ONLY True God.
Rev 3:14 In Jesus' own words. ".........."These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true WITNESS, The BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD."

There in Revelation 3:14 it is not the beginning of the old creation but the beginning of the new creation in resurrection.

"And He is the Head of the Body, the church; He is the beginning, the Firstborn from the dead, that He might have the preeminence in all things." (Colossians 1:18)

How does the One true God refer to Himself as the faithful witness of Himself as He already said if He bore witness of Himself it would
not be true. John 5:31.

He does so because God is on a kind of journey or process of dispensing Himself into man.
On the way from the Source, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (co-eternal) are steps along the way.

In Colossians 1:15 Christ is the FIrstborn of the old creation which is headed by very good man not mingled and united with God.
But in Colossians 1:18 Christ is the beginning, the Firstborn Son of God in resurrection. He is the beginning of the new creation which is headed by man mingled with God. This beginning corresponds to "the Amen, . . . the Beginning of the [new] creation of God."

Therefore Paul writes "that He Himself might have the preeminence in all things"(v.18b) in BOTH the old and the new creation.

So His witness was of the One and only true God He spoke of in John 17:3, and the PLAN or WORD that God was
sending to the world through Him. Sonship through the Son. The Gospel.

It is that but also that He is the Word that was God become flesh - (John 1:1,14)
God does not lie. So the Logos was God. This PLAN or a WORD. It is a "He" - a living One.

"He was in the beginning with God.
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not one thing came into being which has come into being.
In Him was life, and the life was the light of men." (John 1:2-4)

All throughout John chapter one this Logos is a living One with life. Him was the divine life and is the divine life.

Furthermore, He refers to Himself as the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD. He does not lie so try to explain how the beginning of the CREATION of God is the same Only True God.

Again. "the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God" in Revelation 3:14 is the NEW creation headed by the church His Body. Colossians 1:18 comnfirms this - "And He is the Head of the Body, the church; He is the BEGINNING, the Firstborn from the dead . . . ".

Jesus was the first man to receive life within himself from His Father, thus the first ever to be born again.

He became a man like us. But it was God who became a man.
Though He was a perfect man Samson2021, He did not live by that perfect human life.
He DENIED Himself, even though He was perfect, and lived by the Father who sent Him.

He sought not His own will but the will of His Father.
"Jesus said to them, My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work." (John 4:34)
This is God become a perfect man who nevertheless DENIED Himself to do the will of His Father.

"I can do nothing from Myself; as I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me." (John 5:30)
This is God become a perfect human being who NONETHELESS denied Himself to seek the will of the Father who sent Him.

"For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me." (John 6:38)
Again, Jesus, the man from heaven (1 Cor. 15:47) - "The first man is out of the earth, earthy; the second man is out of heaven."
The Lord out of heaven became a perfect man. Yet this perfect man DENIED His human perfection and instead sought the will of His Father.

This perfect man who is God become a man sought not the glory of Himself but the glory of the Father who sent Him.
His teaching was not His though He was a perfect man. His teaching was His Father's who sent Him. And He sought His Father's glory.

"Jesus therefore answered them and said, My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me, And if anyone resolves to do His will, He will know concerning the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself. He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who seeks the glory of Him who sent Him, this One is true, and unrighteousness is not in Him." (John 7:16-18)

Though He as God become a man was a perfect man, He spoke not His own words. He denied Himself and spoke the words of the Father who sent Him, even who was in Him.

"Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak from Myself, but the Father who abides in Me does His works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; but if not, believe because of the works themselves." (John 14:10,11)

On one occasion Jesus admitted that as a perfect man He has much He could judge and say. But He refrained because He denied Himself to judge and to speak the Father's words and judgments.

"I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true, and what I have heard from Him, these things I speak to the world. They did not understand that He was speaking to them of the Father." (John 8:26.27)

No one said the Bible is always easy to understand. It is rather mysterious.
But God became a perfect human being, which human being DENIED Himself to live by the indwelling Father.
When the Father SENT the Son, the Father CAME WITH the Son.

"And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, fpr I always do the things which are pleasing to Him." (John 8:29)

I do not think Jesus was born again in the same manner in which we fallen humans with a deadened spirit are born again.
HIs being born again was His resurrection with a glorified humanity.

He was the only begotten of
the Father both in bodily form and in the Spirit.

This "begotten" as God sent His only begotten Son, is a begetting without a beginning. This is an eternal begetting. For the Word was with God and the Word was God. As long as God was the only begotten Son was.

And as He was begotten of the Father He cannot be the Father.

To our limited minds we cannot imagine so.
But He is the incarnation of the Father.
If He has the name Prince of Peace it is because He IS that which He is called.
And if has the name Eternal Father it is because He IS that which He is called.
And if He has the name Mighty God it is because He IS the which He is called.

We are not required to be able to explain.
We are required to believe.
And there is only one true Mighty God and only one true Divine and Eternal Father.

Would you say He is only called "Prince of peace" yet He is not really "Prince of peace?"
If not than you should not imagine that He is called "Mighty God" but He is not "Mighty God."
And though it reels our limited minds - if He is called "Eternal Father" He must BE the "Eternal Father."

Other replies of mine perhaps latter.

He was the first example
of the word=plan that was from the beginning, which would grow through sufferings and correcting into the very image of His Father,
a self sustained, eternal, life giving Spirit.

This life giving Spirit is not many. There is only one the Third of the Father - Son - Holy Spirit.
You imply millions of individual "life giving Spirits".
It is not Jesus is a life giving Spirit PLUS this one and that one and that one are also ADDITIONAL "life giving Spirits."

The life giving Spirit is the true God who was processed through incarnation, perfect living, redemption, resurrection, ascension to become our life. "[A] life giving Spirit" in First Corinthians 15:45b is THE one and only life giving Spirit who is God-man become one.

The first to be begotten in Spirit by the Father and the last first. The first Lamb of God and the last Lamb of God as there is no need
for another, nor is there any name in heaven or earth by which a man must be saved. Thus the first and the last by 2 different measures.

Yes, there is no other name under heaven by which men must be saved.
This Lamb of God purchased the church with God become a man's blood.
In that sense Acts 20:28 is saying that God purchased the church of God "with His own blood."

"Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among whom the Holy Spirit has placed you as overseers to shepherd the church of God, which He obtained through His own blood." (Acts 20:28)

To be fair J.N Darby who schalorly translated both Hebrew and Greek to English, AND who believed in the Deity of Christ, thought it should read as "through the blood of His own." I would not think to argue Greek translation with Darby. But I agree with those who believe the best rendering is "through His own blood." That would amount to God becomming a man so that He could have blood.

This post is long enough.

 

[oikonomia]

Let me clarify something.

The Firstborn is used twice in Colossians.

1.) In 1:15 - "Who is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of all creation."

2.) In 1:18 - And He is the Head of the Body, the church; He is the beginning, the Firstborn from the dead . . . "

Some teachers like Arius thought verse 15 means the Son of God was the FIRST CREATED thing of God.
This is not so. The Son of God was UNCREATED. But because He became flesh, He of ALL created things has preeminence.

Because God became a man, and because MAN is without question a CREATED being (Genesis 1:26) the incarnation of the uncreated God clothing HImself in His own creation made Him "Firstborn of all creation."

In verse 18 He is FIrstborn in another sense. He is Firstborn Son of God from the dead uplifting, sanctifying, glorifying the human nature He took into death and resurrection. That is the NEW creation - the church of which the resurrected Christ is "the beginning".

Is Christ the UNCREATED Creator? Yes.
Is Christ the created creature also? Yes.

If anyone denies that Christ is both Creator and creature they deny the incarnation of the Word who was God who became flesh to tabernacle among us. (John 1:1,14)

No one said the Bible is always easy to understand.

 

[IoanC]

This probably means to become holy as God is Holy, firstly. The the term 'theosis' ("becoming God") also seems to place man on the same level with God. It means that man can become through Grace what God is by Nature. But man cannot become God by Nature, in Essence. Man can only have attributes that are similar to God's; live in a similar way as Him. God's Nature/Essence is forever incommunicable, incomprehensible, cannot be shared.

 

[oikonomia]

The first to be begotten in Spirit by the Father and the last first. The first Lamb of God and the last Lamb of God as there is no need
for another, nor is there any name in heaven or earth by which a man must be saved. Thus the first and the last by 2 different measures.

Here you are trying to make Jesus Christ "the First and the Last" (Rev. 1:17) some OTHER the First and the Last than Jehovah God. (Isaiah 44:6; 48:12). Jehovah God says there "apart from Me there is no God." The "measure" is that of the God apart from whom no other is.

As the beginning of the creation of God it is God who is the Saviour of ALL men, but as the Lamb of God, which God Himself provided,
Jesus is also our Saviour in that He loved us enough to lay down His life for us, His friends.

Jehovah God tells all the ends of the earth to look to Him as world's God and Savior.
"And there is no other God besides Me; A righteous God and Savior." (Isa. 45:21)
"Turn to Me and be saved, All the ends of the earth. For I am God and there is no one else." (v. 22)

In the same breath this God and Savior says every knee will bow to Him and every tongue will confess.
"I have sworn by Myself; A word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness And will not return,
That every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue swear;
It shall be said if Me, Only in Jehovah is there righteounsness and strength." (vs.23,24a)

Concerning this Son of Man who died and became alive Who says He is the First and the Last (Rev. 1:17,18), the New Testament says -
"Therefore also God highly exulted Him and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
And every tongue should openly confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (Phil. 2:9-11)

This is the God-man whom Peter called "our God and Savior, Jesus Christ." (Second Peter 1:2)
"Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" (2 Pet. 1:8) is also "our God and Savior, Jesus Christ" ( v.2)

This One "our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" (v. 11) is also "our God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (v.2)
"For He received from God the Father honor and glory" (v.17) is also "our God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (v.2)

TItus 1:3 tells of "God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior."
Yet Jesus Christ is "our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ." ( Titus 2:13)

Numbers 23:19 God is NOT A MAN..................... Jesus was!

God had not incarnated to be a man, especially one who lies in Numbers 23:19.
However, in Genesis 18 Jehovah God came as a man and had a meal with Abraham. He was accomanied by two angels.

When God the Word (John 1:1) became flesh (v.14) no lie was found in His mouth and He Himself is forever "the truth" (John 14:6)
"Jesus said to him, I am the way, and the truth [or reality], and the life; no one comes to the Father execpt through Me."

Before this in verse 1 He said "Let not your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me." (John 14:1)
Is your heart troubled? Let it not be. But believe in the Lord Jesus Christ - the way and the truth and the life of God dispensed into man.

Again, God cannot die as He always has had life within Himself,

This is an important point of Him becomming a man that COULD die.
For Him death was meaningless, overcoming it in resurrection and bringing with Him its keys.
He became dead and is alive forever and ever, He who says as Jehovah said "I am the First and the Last, and the living One, and I became dead, and behold, I am living forever and ever . . . " (Rev. 1:17,18a)

Jesus did DIE as this was the will of the Father from before the foundation of the world. Are we really to not consider Abraham and Isaac
as an allegory to God and Jesus.

In the case of Abraham leading Isaac to be slain to be an offering, we see the typology of the Father and the Son. (Gen. 22:1-13).
How touching - the affectionate father offering his one and only son. There the Triune God of the Father and the Son are allegorized.
The son going in utter obedience to be slain as the lamb God would provide. Yet at the last instant the typology switches to Christ being seen as a ram with its horns stuck in the thicket to be the offering slain. This is the Son of God in incarnation, limited in His living among fallen man, signified by the bush of thorns and thickets. God's Son came in the likeness of the flesh of sin yet without sin.


That aspect of the relationship of the Son to the Father is also seen - the loving father offering his son and the son obeying though he could have resisted. The son then transferred in type to the ram with its horns stuck in the thorn bush. The Son of God was incarnated to live among fallen mankind to be that sinless offering for our eternal redemption. Praise God for "our God and Savior, Jesus Christ" our Lord.

Isn't it plain enough that Abraham sacrificing Himself was nothing, but the sacrifice of the
one that He loved the most, Isaac, was a horrid thought but He was willing to do it because God asked, and He had faith that God could
raise Him from the dead. God in like fashion crucified His only begotten Son whom He loved dearly, for our sin. He did not crucify Himself,
but rather that which He Loved more.

Let us come back to Philippians chapter two to see this obedient Son to the Father.
". . . Christ Jesus, Who existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal with God a treasure to be grasped."

The crucial point is He HAD something which He did not consider grasping to retain as a treasure - "existing in the form of God - equal with God". This is not a matter of Jesus Christ grasping in a covetous way to something He did NOT have. But rather it something that He DID have. The form of God and the equality with God.

He laid aside its glory and emptied Himself of the glory of what He had in order to become an obedient slave of a man even unto death on a cross. It is not Him putting away Him being God by essence. But putting away the ourward splendour and glory in order to accomplish His mission.

"Christ Jesus, Who existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal with God a treasure to be grasped, But emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave, becoming in the likeness of man, He humbled Himself, becoming obedient even unto death, and that the death of a cross." (Phil. 2:5b-8)

For this God the Father exalted this man who is God the Son and was a slave of obedience even unto the crucifixion. God the Father to whom every knee must bow and every tongue confess has given this resurrected Son of God the highest name and all in heaven, on earth, and under the earth (having died in the past) must openly confess He is Lord to the Father's glory.

"Therefore also God highly exlted Him amd bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, And every tongue should openly confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (vs.9-11) (Compare Isaiah 43:24,25)

Our God is the man the Lord Jesus.

"The Father LOVETH the Son and hath given all things into His hands." Again, one is not given what one already possesses.

Yes, Amen. This also.

You should do a word study on the word LOGOS. Translated into 38 different english words in the NASB and 25 different
words in the KJV.

It is clear that the Logos is a Person in John chapter 1. The same Person who was with God and was God.
This Logos is the Creator - "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not one things came into being which has come into being." (John 1:3).

This Word of life was handled by the hands of the apostles.
"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we beheld and OUR HANDS HANDLED, concering the Word of life." (1 John 1:1)

This Word of life, this Logos who became flesh and took up His habitation among us, was the divine and eternal life that was with the Father.
"(And the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and report to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us.)" (First John 1:2)

Vines expository Dictionary says LOGOS is "the expression of thought, as embodying a concept or idea."
Britannica- reason, plan, word.

That is fine. And this "expression of thought . . concept or idea" is God defined to us, a living Person.
"No one has ever seen God; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father He has declared Him." (John 1;18)

The Apostle John was bold. He knew full well that the Hebrew Bible said God appeared to various patriarchs and prophets.
Now in the new covenant age of God's incarnation through birth of the Word, John says this manifestation supercedes all the appearings of God in the Old Testament. Jesus, the Logos become flesh, defines God, manifests God, declares God. He imparts God as life.

This is part of the journey of God dispensing His life into man through grace.
"For of His fullness we all received, and grace upon grace." (v16)

The law of God was given but the grace of God CAME as a Person!
"For the law was GIVEN through Moses; grace and reality CAME through Jesus Christ." (v.17)

Jesus preached the WORD(plan) to anyone that would listen, and that WORD(plan) was Sonship within the Kingdom of God. He was a living,
flesh example of Gods plan, reason, word. And became the first to complete the PLAN at His glorification

As I said before - It appears that to you because Jesus was a living flesh example, to you - then He cannot therefore be God.
You think IF the one the other is not to be believed.
This is not how the Bible teaches Jesus.

as He was declared to be a God
by His Father. Heb 1:8 But unto the Son He (God) saith Thy throne O God is forever and ever........... This completed the first Son and the
pattern of the "WORD was GOD" in that He became a God. Just not the ONLY true God of which there can never be but ONE.

You are twisting Hebrews 1:8 to teach that the Son is not addressed as God. This is wrong.
In fact THAT He, the Son, is God, is immediately testified in the same section when the writer of Hebrews says Psalm 102:25-27.
That Psalm 102 is all about the Person being spoken about, God, the Son who is the uncreated eternal Creator of the universe.

" . . . Your God, has anointed You [the Son] with the oil of exultant joy above Your partners"; And, "You in the beginning, Lord, laid the foundation of the arth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands; They will perish, but You remain perpetually; and they all will become old like a garment, And like a mantle you will roll them up; like a garment they wiull also be changed; but You are the same, and Your years will not fail." (Hebrews 1: 10-12 QUOTING from Psalm 102:25-27)

The astounding impact of this is more impressive when you read aloud the entire Psalm 102 as all 28 verses.
The writer of Hebrews under inspiration is saying Psalm 102 is about this God the Son this one to whom is the address "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever."

The whole section also amounts to God having His God !
"But of the Son, "Your throne O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of uprighteness is the scepter of Your kingdom. . . therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of exulatant joy above Your partners."

We have already been told in verse 2 that through this Son God created the universe which is exactly what Hebrews 1:10-12 is re-affirming.
" . . . the Son, whom He appointed Heir of all things, through whom also He made the universe" (v.2)

We are to follow His example in order to come to the same reward. This is the PLAN- Sonship. Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation
of the creature(creation) waits for the manifestation of the sons of God. A work still in progress.

The plan is still in progress. But you go beyind the Bible. You believe BECAUSE He is the Firstborn Son with many brothers conformed to His image abd being manifested as the sons of God, therefore Christ the Son CANNOT Be God Himself.

And that is going coming short of all that the Bible teaches.

NO one comes to the Son except the Father draw Him. In your doctrine they are one and the same, or different aspects of the same being.
This is a false concept.

There is no falsehood in that the child born to us is called Mighty God and the Son given to us is called Eternal Father.
Nor is there falsehood that the Word which was with God, mysteriously and wonderfully WAS God.
Rather the blasphemy would be to say that this One did not become flesh. For God tells us through apostle - "And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us." (v.14)

My Lord and my God are the same one as was the Lord and God of Thomas.
When Thomas confessed finally that the Lord Jesus was also his God, Jesus did not rebuke, correct, adjust, or scold Thomas.
On the contrary. He said He was blessed to believe it. And those who have not seen and believe Jesus is Lord and God are blessed.

"Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!
Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed." (John 20:28,29)

What a blessedness it is to have not seen yet believe Jesus is my Lord and my God, as Thomas realized.

 

[Strong in Him]

Does God want man to be God?

My answer is yes but not in His Godhead. I mean there are attributes which God will not bestow upon His creatures.

He alone is an object of worship.
He alone is the Creator of universes.
Other noncommunicable attributes would probably be:

His omniscience.
His omnipotence.
His omipresents.
His alone becomming the Redeemer and Source of eternal redemption and eternal life.

There may be some more non-communicable attributes that someone else could mention.
But He created us in His image.
He created us according to His likeness.
He became a man.
And He became a life giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45 ) to impart Himself into us to conform us to His image (Romans 8:28,29).

Athanasius was on to something saying God became man so that man might become God.
That is, I believe he meant life, nature, expression, glory but not in the incommunicalbe attributes that are soley those of His Godhead.

Am I right?
" . . . we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him even as He is." (1 John 3:2).
It is not a power grab on our part. Rather it is something according to His purpose, His desire, His hearts pleasure and intention. (Eph. 1:5; Rom. 8:29)

Humans can never be God.
He is infinite, eternal, perfect etc.
We are finite, created, imperfect etc.

We were created by him, in his image - made to reflect him.
We sin and that image is marred. Those of us who have been born again and given new hearts, can be transformed, by the Spirit, into his image once again, 2 Corinthians 3:18.
We will also be with him one day, and forever.
But we will never be God.

 

[oikonomia]

We will also be with him one day, and forever.
But we will never be God.

The being "with him" is exceedingly organic.
It is more that than the "with him" of all the good angels who are forever "with him."

It is the "with him" of mingling.
God becomes us and we become God in life and nature and expression but not in His Godhead.

Satan, when he was [Lucifer] or the Daystar was surely with God - "with him."
But this highest creature did not have God living within him.
The sons of God are mingled in an organic incorporation with God.
This is something no angel or arch-angel ever had.

I would like to see how you would answer this.
If God wanted more creatures to be happy, glorious and "with him" as the good angels that remained "with him,"
instead of creating man, why didn't God simply make more glorious angels to be "with him?"

 

[oikonomia]

I would encourage Bible readers to read Genesis 1:26 once emphasizing the word THEM . . .

"And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let THEM have dominion over . . . etc. etc."

Another being previously had the dominion - the anointed Cherub, the Daystar who rebelled and became Satan.
He lost his position and God them created a new kind of creature from the dust of the earth - man.
INSTEAD of the fired and replaced Daystar with his perfect created wisdom and inherent beauty, God said "Let THEM [this dusty creature man] have dominion."

But this new being was placed before "the tree of life" which mean he was to take INTO himself the divine life of God.

No creature previous to Adam had been made to CONTAIN God as life mingled into his created human life.
This was something new in the universe. And of this new dusty being meant to be a vessel to contain God the Creator said -
" . . . and let THEM have dominion." That is THEM . . . instead of the old order where an angel had that kingship and dominion.

 

[Samson2021]

How does the One true God refer to Himself as the faithful witness of Himself as He already said if He bore witness of Himself it would
not be true. John 5:31.

He does so because God is on a kind of journey or process of dispensing Himself into man.
On the way from the Source, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (co-eternal) are steps along the way.

This doesn't answer the question. Deflection!

In Him was life, and the life was the light of men." (John 1:2-4)

And where did the life that was manifested in Him come from? His Father!

The whole section also amounts to God having His God !
"But of the Son, "Your throne O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of uprighteness is the scepter of Your kingdom. . . therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of exulatant joy above Your partners."

This verse merely supports my argument that the Son has a God, His Father! Thank you for providing it.


And that is going coming short of all that the Bible teaches.

How so??

"And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us." (v.14)

Agreed, but your understanding of the word LOGOS is that it was Jesus. Since it was translated into 38 different words in the NASB, and
25 in the KJV does not make it Jesus as a God prior to His glorification. And simply because the writers of our current versions of the bible
chose to leave that use of the word Logos as WORD capitalized doesn't mean it embodies diety, as ALL the Jewish and Greek manuscripts
were written in CAPS and without punctuation.
He was the first Son to be born again with the life within Himself and the Father IN HIM that made the PLAN of God manifest to those that
saw Him. The (plan was God) was a promise that the Son, once perfected would be a GOD, and that happened after His resurrection.
Like He said I ascend to MY GOD and your God, My Father and your Father. John 20:17