Does God Want Man to be God?

[friend of]

Thank you for your insight.

 

[ViaCrucis]

It's a relatively new translation. I think it's quite romantic in its language all throughout and it's a pleasure to read. I wouldn't consider it a bible to do serious study from, but it's a nice change of pace.

Everything I've heard about the "Passion Translation" has been enough to make me extremely wary of it. Everything I've heard points to it being a sectarian translation without any scholarship supporting it.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[friend of]

Everything I've heard about the "Passion Translation" has been enough to make me extremely wary of it. Everything I've heard points to it being a sectarian translation without any scholarship supporting it.

-CryptoLutheran

I'd take it over The Message any day

 

[Know Body]

The prayer after Psalm 113 in today's evening prayer

Lord Jesus, Word of God, surrendering the brightness of your glory you became man so that we may be raised from the dust to share your very being. May there be innumerable children of the Church to offer homage to your name from the rising of the sun to its setting.​

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[oikonomia]

The prayer after Psalm 113 in today's evening prayer

Lord Jesus, Word of God, surrendering the brightness of your glory you became man so that we may be raised from the dust to share your very being. May there be innumerable children of the Church to offer homage to your name from the rising of the sun to its setting.​

​

​

Amen. I'll have to go back and enjoy Psalm 113.

Your priase touches touches the recurring light - God seeks to build Himself into man. And God seeks to build man into God.
For God to create the world seemed easier. For Him to build Himself into man and man into God, requires all of His wisdom, longsuffering, patience, love, . . . it requires much more of HIm. But He does it. And the "multifarious wisdom" is displayed in eternity.

We're on the way.

 

[Justin_Mary]

I found this is the Carmelite rule for friars

The contemplative dimension of Carmelite life allows us to recognize God's action in creation and in history. This free gift challenges us to commit ourselves to the working out of God's plan for the world. The authentic contemplative journey allows us to discover our own frailty, our weakness, our poverty; in a word, the nothingness of human nature - reminding us that all is grace. Through this experience, we grow in solidarity with those who live in situations of deprivation and injustice As we allow ourselves to be challenged by the poor and by the oppressed, we are gradually transformed, and we begin to see the world with God's eyes and to love the world with his heart. With God, we hear the cry of the poor, and we strive to share the Divine solicitude, concern, and compassion for the poorest and the least​

 

[Samson2021]

Identify any time when the Son was not subject to His Father?
If the subjection in First Corinthians 15:28 is sudden and unprecidented then WHEN during the entire life and ministry of Christ, was He NOT subjected to the Father?

The point is that if the Son is in subjection to God the Father then the Son is not the ONLY TRUE GOD, but a Son of God that became a God.
He was PERFECTED by the things He suffered and that perfecting brought with it the BECOMING of a LIFE GIVING SPIRIT. God already was.

That is your reasoning because you think some rivalry or competition exists in the Three of the Triune God.
God expresses Himself as perfect authority.
And God expresses Himself as perfect submission to authority also

There is no rivalry for the Son and the Father are in agreement that the Fathers will is the only will that should be fulfilled. That should be obvious
from the accounting in the garden of Gethsemane when He took the sin of the world unto Himself.
Triune God is nothing more than Mithraistic Iranian pollution of Christianity, as well as the Hindu concept which polluted Christianity
at the council of Nicaea. During that period 325 AD Constantine the Roman Emperor had a religious problem with Christians and Mithraists.
The conclusion that was offered up by the Catholic Church of the day was to incorporate Mithraistic ideas and traditions into a new
Christianity and call their festivals some form of MAS. Christ-MAS was one of those traditions that carried on and this is where the
celebrating of the birth of Jesus and the date started. It coincided with the winter equinox which in Mithraistic tradition was celebrated
by the giving of gifts and other such parties and sexual debauchery for the entire week of the winter equinox. Mithra=Sun God
Satan got a1900 yr head start on all of us in these particular doctrines.
It effectively made God a deviate with multiple personalities and it erased the existence of Jesus as a MAN. Trinity asserts that Jesus is YAHWEH,
rather than the Son of YAHWEH. It denies that Jesus Christ is an independent being with an existence separate from His Father. That He has been reabsorbed into the great goo just as the Hindus Nirvana, and if Jesus cannot exist as an independant Son of God then neither can you.

Why then does God speak to Israel telling them to COMMAND Hm concerning His sons and the works of His hands?

Simple. He is asking them a question that they might understand His plan. That being the bringing forth of a group of firstfruits
collectively called sons of God. Who will be like Jesus, PERFECTED. What comes after that you would not understand yet.

"......Ask me of things to come concerning My sons, command ye me.....

1 Tim 2:5 There is ONE GOD, and ONE MEDIATOR between GOD and MEN, the MAN Christ Jesus.

Problem with this doctrine is it completely eliminates the Man Jesus who was born of the flesh thus flesh, not God. "What is born of the flesh is flesh and what is born of the Spirit is Spirit". His being proclaimed as a God did not occur until after His resurrection.
He was a begotten Son in the flesh, who was begotten again in the Spirit at Jordan. After completing the will of His Father thus being
perfected, He became a life giving Spirit. Prior to that glorification He was not able to baptize in the Holy Spirit of God. Now He is the
only source for life from death as His Father, and ours, has given Him that position.
When you exclude the fleshly man Jesus and simply say He always was God eliminates the possibility, that you to can become what
He BECAME. A son of God pronounced to be a God and GIVEN all power in heaven and earth.

Hebrews 1:8-9 But unto the Son(Jesus) He(God) saith Thy throne O God(Jesus) is forever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the scepter of thy
kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness and hated iniquity therefore GOD, EVEN THY GOD hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness
above thy fellows.

Surely you will not come back at this and try to tell me God anointed Himself. And if you are blind to this simple truth then I bow out
for obviously you cannot hear me. And we both know what the Bible says about that.

 

[oikonomia]

The point is that if the Son is in subjection to God the Father then the Son is not the ONLY TRUE GOD, but a Son of God that became a God.
He was PERFECTED by the things He suffered and that perfecting brought with it the BECOMING of a LIFE GIVING SPIRIT. God already was.

The incarnation, perfect living, being perfected trhough the things in which He uffered, redemptive death, and resurrection are all steps the Triune God passed through in order that He could dispense Himself into us.

The Spirit is the eternal Spirit. But after the above process the man God became and the achievements, attainments, obtainments He passed through were compounded into the eternal Spirit - "the last Adam became [therefore] a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45). That is God the Spirit.

Genesis 18 ALREADY previewed that God can express Himself as a man. He appeared with two other angles who came as men and had lunch with Abraham. You should be astounded at Moses's faithfulness in recording what happened.

"And Jehovah appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre as he was sitting at the entrance of his tent in the heat of the day.
And he lifted up his eyes and lookedm and there were three MEN standing opposite him." (Gen. 18:1,2) In the course of the meal Jehovah (one of the men) heard Sarah laugh in her heart by His omniscience and pointed it out. "And Jehovah said to Abraham, Why did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I indeed bear a child when am old? (v.13)

Two of the men went ahead down to Sodom. And Jehovah lingered further to speak mouth to mouth with Abraham , the friend of God.
"And the men turned from there and went toward Sodom, WHILE Abraham remained standing before JEHOVAH.(v.22)

How many angels came to Sodom? - "And the TWO angels came to Sodom in the evening." (19:1)
The next time we hear about Jehovah after the ordeal in Lot's house with the mob and the two men who went down to Sodom is that
JEHOVAH reigned judgment on Sodom from JEHOVAH out of heaven.

"Then Jehovah rained upon Sodom and upon Gamorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven." (19:27)
The first book of the Bible, Genesis, gives us a preview of God manifesting Himself as a man.
Then when the Word that was God as well as with God beame flesh. And before His resurrection He learned obedience through the things which He suffered. And He became the God imparting divine life giving Spirit to dispense the Triune God into His people.

 

[oikonomia]

There is no rivalry for the Son and the Father are in agreement that the Fathers will is the only will that should be fulfilled. That should be obvious from the accounting in the garden of Gethsemane when He took the sin of the world unto Himself.

Just as you should not say God cannot manifest Himself as a man having lunch with Abraham in Genesis 18 neither should you say God is not allowed to or cannot manifest Himself as the subjected, submissive, obedient unto death man our Lord Jesus.

What is on God's heart from before He created the universe was to have sons. THE Son of Man, the Firstborn from the dead is the God-man who is the Head of this desire of God's heart. Your view that God is not allowed renders Isaiah 9:6 a complete lie. It renders many plan verses as lies.
And it denies that Jesus was the faithful Witness that the Word became flesh and tabernacled amng us.

Triune God is nothing more than Mithraistic Iranian pollution of Christianity, as well as the Hindu concept which polluted Christianity
at the council of Nicaea.

No, do not wave Nicaea around before us. Nicacea did not write into the Hebrews Bible that the child born is called the Mighty God and the Son given is called Eternal Father. Nicaea didn't write the the Word was with God and was God and became flesh and tqabernacled among us.

During that period 325 AD Constantine the Roman Emperor had a religious problem with Christians and Mithraists.
The conclusion that was offered up by the Catholic Church of the day was to incorporate Mithraistic ideas and traditions into a new
Christianity and call their festivals some form of MAS.

It is quit true that the RCC incorported many pre-Christian mystery cults of the pagans to make the gospel, what they thought. more palatable to the pagan masses. This history cannot be overstretched to blame what you do not believe on the leavening of the RCC.
You are overplaying that card hoping you can rationalize this to justify your unbelief in what the Bible says.

 

[oikonomia]

Christ-MAS was one of those traditions that carried on and this is where the
celebrating of the birth of Jesus and the date started.

Of course Saturnalia and the 25th of December were leaven added to the pure gospel.
You cannot overplay Christmas trees, Easter eggs, Mary worship, indulgences, Peter as Pope #1 and other corrupting leaven to deny that centuries earlier the prophet Isaiah prophsied of a child and son Who is God incarnate.

Nor can you blame Nicaea for God having lunch with Abraham or being Emmanual "God with us."

It coincided with the winter equinox which in Mithraistic tradition was celebrated
by the giving of gifts and other such parties and sexual debauchery for the entire week of the winter equinox. Mithra=Sun God
Satan got a1900 yr head start on all of us in these particular doctrines.

The disciple Thomas did not consult Mithraistic belief when he confessed that the risen Lord Jesus was his Lord and his God. (John 20:28)
Did you expect that I was going to be shocked to hear about Christmas's 25th of December being touted as the birthday of Jesus ?

It effectively made God a deviate with multiple personalities and it erased the existence of Jesus as a MAN. Trinity asserts that Jesus is YAHWEH,
rather than the Son of YAHWEH. It denies that Jesus Christ is an independent being with an existence separate from His Father. That He has been reabsorbed into the great goo just as the Hindus Nirvana, and if Jesus cannot exist as an independant Son of God then neither can you.

You are overplaying your knowledge hoping that you can deny the Scriptures.
The Trinity is not set for as a systematic dogma. The three-oneness of God is spoken in a matter of fact way indicating that the Christians
experienced this mystery.

I don't know how many times I must point out to you that the interchangeable titles Paul uses in Romans 8:9-11 show the Three Persons of the Godhead were distinct but not separated. They had no way to detect any separation. He was this INDWELLING one Triune God.

"But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.
Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him.
But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteosness.
And if the Spirit of the One who raiwed Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to our mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you."

This is not three or four indwelling Gods. This is ONE indwelling God imparting divine life to man.
And this one INDWELLING Spirit of God is Christ who is the Spirit of Christ who is the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead.

This is Paul speaking of their enjoyment and experience of the indwelling God who gives life.
Latter in church history sytematic creeds were stated to defend against people like you and Arius who deny that Jesus is God.

 

[oikonomia]

1 Tim 2:5 There is ONE GOD, and ONE MEDIATOR between GOD and MEN, the MAN Christ Jesus.

This verse does not say that the man Jesus is not God incarnate.
It says that He is the Mediator between God and man.

On the way to God dispensing Himself into man He became flesh accomplished a perfet living for our repemption and became a Grest High Priest who lives forever always to intercede for us. Since He is God-man He the Mediator between us and God.

Problem with this doctrine is it completely eliminates the Man Jesus who was born of the flesh thus flesh, not God. "What is born of the flesh is flesh and what is born of the Spirit is Spirit". His being proclaimed as a God did not occur until after His resurrection.

You have two errors here:
First error is that the contrast between flesh and spirit in John 3:6 means human flesh verses human spirit.
So the second spirit in John 3:6 is the (small s) human spirit. And the Agent that causes it to be born anew is the (capital S) Spirit Who is God.

So it should be read like this: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
The fallen flesh can only beget more fallen flesh. The human spirit can be reborn by the Spirit who is Jehovah.

"But an hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truthfulnesss. for the Father also seeks such to worship Him. God is Spirit and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth." (John 4:23,24)

The construction is similar. Jehovah God the Father is Spirit and we must touch and worship God the Father in our human spirit.
The previous chapter tells us that our deadened human spirit can be reborn from the Spirit that God is.

Your second error is that Jesus Christ is revealed as God BOTH before and after His resurrection.
He took back to the eternal throne the humanity that He had become and lived and brought through death and resurrection.
He uplifted this humanity, glorfied it, deified it, and is for eternity the Firstborn Son of God in resurrection.

HIs Godhead we can never share. But His uplifted deified sonship is spearheaded by Him and He is not ashamed to call us brothers.

He was a begotten Son in the flesh, who was begotten again in the Spirit at Jordan. After completing the will of His Father thus being
perfected, He became a life giving Spirit. Prior to that glorification He was not able to baptize in the Holy Spirit of God. Now He is the
only source for life from death as His Father, and ours, has given Him that position.

Before Jesus Christ was conceived in the womb of Mary or born of out of her or the Holy Spirit came UPON Him at Jordon, God manifested Himself mysteriously as a man and had lunch with Abraham "the friend of God" in Genesis 18.

The CHILD born was already the incarnation of Jehovah the Mighty God.
The SON given was already the incarnation of Jehovah the Eternal Father.

When God became a man this man denied Himself and lived not by His perfect human life.
He denied Himself and lived by the Father.
He did not speak His own words, did not do His own work, did not seek His own glory, and made example to us.
Even His being baptized to be an example of submission to all righteousness. It is not that He needed washing from any sins.
He denied Himself all His life and lived a life of the cross until He actually DIED as a man on the cross.

This was God becoming a man yet not living by that human perfection but learning obedience by living totally by His Father.

"As the living Father has sent Me and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also shall live because of Me."(John 6:57)

Though God became a perfect man who could die, He did not live moment to moment by that, He DENIED Himself and lived by the Father Who sent Him. We have the unspeakable priviledge and unimaginable honor to walk in His steps. Though we be not God incarnate we can live BY Him in His resurrection as He lived by His Father - being perfected through the things which He suffered in this denial of Himself.

The vindication of this process that the Son of God went through is eternal.
In this age He has the highest name. In the age to come He has the highest name.
In the AGES of the AGES (eternity) His exultation is eternal.

The name of Jesus - "Far above every name that is named not only in this age but also in that which is to come." (Eph. 1:21)
"To Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus unto ALL THE GENERATIONS FOREVER AND EVER. AMEN." (Eph. 3:21)

It is IMPOSSIBLE to too highly exalt the Lord Jesus. And that unto all the generations for eternity.

 

[oikonomia]

When you exclude the fleshly man Jesus and simply say He always was God eliminates the possibility, that you to can become what
He BECAME. A son of God pronounced to be a God and GIVEN all power in heaven and earth.

I don't follow your argument.
But like Thomas, my God is the man the Lord Jesus.
He uplifted the created man and mingled God with humanty not just for Himself but for all the sons of God.

He is a man and with a glorifed body. He uplifted and sanctified this humanity and wears this deified humanity for eternity.
He will never put it away.

Hebrews 1:8-9 But unto the Son(Jesus) He(God) saith Thy throne O God(Jesus) is forever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness and hated iniquity therefore GOD, EVEN THY GOD hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

And if you believe that there are TWO Gods there, you are a polytheist.
Therefore God, Your God, O God the Son points to the mysterious Triune God.

And do not blame me for saying this is enjoyable, experiencable yet mysterious.
For Christ is "the mystery of God."
" . . . unto all the riches of the full assurance of understanding, unto the full knowledge of the mystery of God, Christ" (Col. 2:2)
" . . . that God would open to us a door for the word, to speak the mystery of Christ . . ." (Col. 4:3)

Surely you will not come back at this and try to tell me God anointed Himself. And if you are blind to this simple truth then I bow out
for obviously you cannot hear me. And we both know what the Bible says about that.

We both know that the Bible says that when Thomas called Jesus his Lord and his God, Jesus rebuked him NOT. Rather we both know that Jesus said that he believed because he saw. And blessed are those who have not seen yet believe.

I am one who believes though I have not seen. And I am indeed blessed to the uttermost.

We also both know that Jesus in resurrection declared that He was Jehovah the First and the Last in Revelation 1: 17. Compare to Isaiah 44:6; 48:12. You know that you have to twist the verse to deny that the man Jesus is Jehovah.

 

[Valletta]

You cannot overplay Christmas trees, Easter eggs, Mary worship, indulgences, Peter as Pope #1 and other corrupting leaven to deny that centuries earlier the prophet Isaiah prophsied of a child and son Who is God incarnate.

The Catholic Church teaches that the worship for God is for God alone--not for Mary of anyone else. Please don't put out misinformation on the Catholic Church. Pagans were there before Christianity so obviously many of the customs and symbols were used before. You will find the word "Christian" in the Bible and the time it was first used, that word was first used by pagans, that does not mean that if you call yourself a Christian you are corrupt and following pagans. Likewise the cross was used as a symbol by pagans, that does not mean that Jesus followed pagans by using that pagan symbol. If you knew Holy Scripture as did Jews at the time of Jesus you would recognize the parallel in words to Isaiah when Jesus renamed Simon as Rock and gave Simon the keys to the kingdom. As in Isaiah, the king gives the keys of the kingdom to his prime minister as a sign of authority. Those keys were give to Rock (Peter) and not to any other Apostle.

 

[oikonomia]

The Catholic Church teaches that the worship for God is for God alone--not for Mary of anyone else.

What characterizes Catholcism is mixture. If you dig down deep enough the truth is buried there.
This so that she can always claim certain things like you assert "the worship for God is for God alone."

Yes, mixed and buried down there you can also find the gospel.
And I lived in New York and once heard a large commation as a parade down the street.
To my suprise a statue of the Virgin Mother seemed to be the main cause of the celebration.

So it is hard to believe you that the Mary "Mother of God" is not totally worshipped and adored by myriads of Catholics.

Please don't put out misinformation on the Catholic Church. Pagans were there before Christianity so obviously many of the customs and symbols were used before.

I do not use a cross symbol for anything.
Incorporation of many religions to make a"Christian" version of this or that was the scheme used to allow the masses to come into the "Church" and feel that they were not realy giving up thier superstitions. They just now had a "Christian" version of it.

Most of the sects which were spawned off from the RCC, to one degree or another held to some of these practices.

You will find the word "Christian" in the Bible and the time it was first used, that word was first used by pagans, that does not mean that if you call yourself a Christian you are corrupt and following pagans.

I might admit that the term "pagan"might be problematic.
The Mother and Child theme has been found all over the world before the Christian church came into existence.

Hislop's said that its origin goes back to Nimrod and his mother. I think he had relations with her. These things I hate to go into.
But Mother and Child portait spread all over the world from pre-Christian centuries.

Everywhere it has been discovered. The RCC made it be Mary and Jesus. It is LEAVEN of a corrupting nature mixed into the fine meal of the Gospel.

Likewise the cross was used as a symbol by pagans, that does not mean that Jesus followed pagans by using that pagan symbol.

Yes, crosses are an old symbol.
And some Christians do not use crosses. And on some edifices of Christians you will not find a cross.

If you knew Holy Scripture as did Jews at the time of Jesus you would recognize the parallel in words to Isaiah when Jesus renamed Simon as Rock and gave Simon the keys to the kingdom. As in Isaiah, the king gives the keys of the kingdom to his prime minister as a sign of authority. Those keys were give to Rock (Peter) and not to any other Apostle.

I'll comment on this latter.

 

[Valletta]

What characterizes Catholcism is mixture. If you dig down deep enough the truth is buried there.
This so that she can always claim certain things like you assert "the worship for God is for God alone."

Yes, mixed and buried down there you can also find the gospel.
And I lived in New York and once heard a large commation as a parade down the street.
To my suprise a statue of the Virgin Mother seemed to be the main cause of the celebration.

So it is hard to believe you that the Mary "Mother of God" is not totally worshipped and adored by myriads of Catholics.

It's too bad you jump to such conclusions without taking the time to find out what the Catholic Church actually teaches. What is your religion?

 

[oikonomia]

It's too bad you jump to such conclusions without taking the time to find out what the Catholic Church actually teaches. What is your religion?

I am looking everyday to the Lord Jesus Christ for me to be saved from religion.