Does God Want Man to be God?

ViaCrucis

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Just as expected. Those that have never done these things do not have the Holy Ghost, thus they will not answer the questions, for to answer
NO shows them for who they are, indoctrinated theologians!
Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; in My name shall they cast out devils, they shall speak with new tongues;............

And as I only asked you if you did, there was no boasting on my part. I only wanted to know with whom I was conversing. Now I know.

It looked a lot like boasting to me. Are you not using the things you mentioned as somehow evidence of your own rightness while trying to present me as false? Are you not, right here, telling me that I don't have the Holy Spirit? Even though, St. Paul says that all who have believed the Gospel through faith have been sealed with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13), and St. Peter in the Acts of the Apostles says that whoever is baptized is forgiven and receives the gift of the Spirit (Acts 2:38); and thus the evidence of the Spirit is not in these things, but in the word and promises of God received in faith.

You are pointing to yourself, not to the word and promise of God. And so you are trusting in false works and your own hubris. In order that you might quench the Spirit, deny the word, and seek out false teachers who tell you only what you want to hear.

You will not find here a spitting match where I try and prove my own spiritual superiority--for I do not have it. I am powerless and weak, a fool full of folly, a naked sinner, a mere beggar. I have nothing to boast of. So I will boast only in Christ and His cross. But, because of the confidence which I have in God's word, I will speak that word, and pray that you stop grieving and quenching the Holy Spirit, but that you come and know Him as He makes His home in you through God's Word and Sacraments. For the Spirit Himself, according to the promise of Christ, shall draw you and point you to Christ--not to yourself.

So I repeat what I have been saying, for I am nothing but Christ is everything, come to Christ, abide in Christ, hear His word and abide there. Repent. For Christ has assuredly declared to be with us even unto the end of the age. The promise is to His Church, come and be reconciled, come to where the word is preached, come and hear, listen, for "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ" (Romans 10:17). The Good Shepherd speaks, and His sheep know His voice, come and hear the Good Shepherd, return to the sheepfold of Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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oikonomia

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Just as expected. Those that have never done these things do not have the Holy Ghost, thus they will not answer the questions, for to answer
NO shows them for who they are, indoctrinated theologians!
Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; in My name shall they cast out devils, they shall speak with new tongues;............

And as I only asked you if you did, there was no boasting on my part. I only wanted to know with whom I was conversing. Now I know.
Samson you sound very confident that you are able to be a guide to the unlearned.

I experienced some Pentacostal things like being involved in casting out demons years ago.
I also did what I was told was speaking in tongues. But I have my doubts now if what I was taught to do was really genuine.

Having said that, I am not anti-tongues. And I do believe the genuine experience is had by some.

I found something more useful, I think. That is pray-reading the word - reading and praying over and with the Bible.

Thanks for sharing your past experience.
Do you get anything from the videos of Derek Prince on deliverance?
I think some of them are quite helpful.
 
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oikonomia

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Tell me. Do you pray in tongues often? Cast out any unclean spirits? Been sent By Him to do His will?
Works of power can be at some times misleading. The temptation to assume one is very spiritually mature because he or she has peformed works of power has been the ruination of many Christians.

Many a powerful preacher who partook in some work of power (even if legityimate) fell hard at the temptation of the Devil.
"YOU are really mighty in the hands of God! Surely YOU have arrived at a fully mature person of God. Try this situation on for size."

The stories of A. A. Allen and Kathrine Kulhman I believe are stories of people who started out genuine. But gradually the lure of power working got corrupted. Don't let you have cast out a demon or two go to your head. You better humble yourself twice as much asking for God's mercy for every work of power you perceive you participated in.

My person expeience is that the most embarressing spiritual failures I had were those soon accompanying assumptions that I had power from God to effect other's lives in supernatural display.

It is good that a strong faithed Christian can chase out a demon. It is better that a group of Christians are mature in life that demons dare not hang around that group. You'll notice that where there are Pentacostal things in abundance there are also bothersome encreased instances of demon activity. I think where they see Christians assuming they are mighty they all the more go to harrass and lead astray into pride. I am serious.

Don't let them do it to you Samson. And read carefully the story of Samson again before the Lord.
 
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oikonomia

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Not the same as being God.
Don't you think we should be careful not to underestimate the extent of salvation?

I understand your caution to not be blasphemous. But in that caution is there a similar concern that Christians not UNDER-estimate the extent of salvation ?

The son of a camel is of the species of camel.
The son of a grizzly bear is of the species of grissly bear.
The son of a human being is of the species of human being.

Are the sons of God not of the species of God?

Let's put it another way. Is the body of "Strong in Him" "Strong in Him"?
Or is the body of"Strong in Him " someone else and someone else's body?

My aim is not to me mischievous.
My aim is Christians learn not to under eststimate this "He is able to save us to the uttermost" in order to MATCH Him.
We are, after all, to be brought to a place where we can MARRY the God-man the Lord Jesus.
So we must be as He is even as Eve was taken out of Adam and brought back to join Adam as wife.

"Because we are members of His Body. For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall be one flesh. This mystery is great, but I speak with regard to Christ and the church." (Eph. 5:30-32)

The one became two. And then the two became one.
 
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Strong in Him

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Don't you think we should be careful not to underestimate the extent of salvation?

I understand your caution to not be blasphemous. But in that caution is there a similar concern that Christians not UNDER-estimate the extent of salvation ?
I don't think so.
I am a child of God, now.
I have every spiritual blessing in Christ, now.
When I die, I will be made perfect, whole, complete. I will be with God for eternity, and serve, and worship him.
I will never BE him. HE is, Almighty God, and always will be - eternal, the source of life, the focus of all worship.
Not me.

The church is the bride of Christ.
That still does not make us God.
 
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Samson2021

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Even though, St. Paul says that all who have believed the Gospel through faith have been sealed with the Holy Spirit (
There are examples of people who were baptized and believed that had not yet received the Holy Ghost. He chooses us, we do not choose
Him. The infilling of the Holy Ghost is something a person will never forget as it is an experience and will cause you to speak things that
you have no idea what your saying. The believer that has received the Holy Ghost is no longer an actual believer, as they are now a knower.
They received by faith but now know and there is no doubt. My intention was not to offend but rather to challenge you as to whether you
fit the category of a true believer according to the words of Jesus Himself. He said they would speak in unknown tongues, cast out devils,
lay their hands on the sick etc..... These things are works that are given to the believer to do to verify for them who they are in Him.
The believer is to be like Jesus was in that they do nothing they do not hear or see the Father doing. They are instructed to be the
messenger to the one who is going to be healed for example, a casting out of an unclean spirit really isn't a big deal for they have to obey
those who have the Holy Ghost in them, they have no choice. If one is revealed to you then you simply tell it to get out in the name
of Jesus and it will go. These are not signs of one being more spiritual than another, they are simply signs given to the knower to confirm
their election.
Works of power can be at some times misleading. The temptation to assume one is very spiritually mature because he or she has peformed works of power has been the ruination of many Christians.
See the above comments to understand my position. With the exception of casting out an unclean spirit, everything I have done was
done according to what the Father told me specifically to do. I didn't choose to do anything on my own. But I certainly didn't mind
doing anything He asked of me.
Example, how would I know that someone needed a healing that I did not even know? He said "Go pray for Him" eventually (5 min)
I did and within 6 months I learned the man had a bad heart that was restored and inoperable cancer that was gone on his last exam.
Example 2 a young girl with a small child kicked out of her home by boyfriend. She was praying that he would feel what she felt.
I was on my way home from work when He said "Go tell this woman to make a list of the things she needs to set up her new home
that I am preparing for her." Keep in mind that I did not know the person nor had I ever even seen her, much less what the problem
was until after meeting with her. She made a list and came to my house with a neighbor, one of her friends, the following morning.
We prayed for her to receive what the Lord had promised she would get for her new home and child. Within 2 weeks she had all
of it and much, much more. It was something to watch and be involved in. To hear people say they had been praying about getting
rid of beds, washers, dryers etc... so they could stop paying storage fees etc... Some things had to be given to others as the overflow
she was unable to use. This kind of example is not gonna be found in the bible, but as the Lord is my witness it happened. And I have
3 other witnesses that know what I said would happen before it did, and who told me it would.
It ain't about me and never was, it's all about Him and what He is gonna do. He just allows us to be messengers of good news in the
examples I stated.
 
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oikonomia

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I don't think so.
I am a child of God, now.
I have every spiritual blessing in Christ, now.
That is wonderful. And in the same chapter Paul speaks of something TO come yet - "the economy of the fullness of the times, to head up all things in Christ . . . " (v.10). While He is working out the dispensing of His life into us He is moving all things and the universe to "the fullness of the times."

As you know the fullness is viewed in the last two chapters of the Bible - Revelation 21, 22.
He heads up all things in Christ. And Christ is the head over all things "to the church". (Eph. 1:22)

This means what He is is being transmitted down from Him as the Head TO His Body.
As He is God-man as the Head, He has a transmission "to the church" of this mingling of divinity and humanity.
When I die, I will be made perfect, whole, complete. I will be with God for eternity, and serve, and worship him.
I will never BE him. HE is, Almighty God, and always will be - eternal, the source of life, the focus of all worship.
Not me.

The church is the bride of Christ.
That still does not make us God.
Yes, God is the Source of the eternal life.
His Godhead is a non-communicable attribute.

Time will tell what "the fullness of the times" will reveal. Won't it?
 
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oikonomia

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There are examples of people who were baptized and believed that had not yet received the Holy Ghost.
How do you feel about the passage which says that no one can say Jesus is Lord EXCEPT . . . in the Holy Spirit?

"Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking in the Spirit of God says, Jesus is accursed; and no one can say, Jesus is Lord! except in the Holy Spirit." (1 Cor. 12:3)

I believe that in Acts 8:4-25 the Samarian believers, who surely must have confessed Jesus was Lord, had not had the Pentacostal type outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon them. The awaiting for the apostles to lay hands on them, I think, was a matter of God confirming that they were of the same Body of Christ. Being Samarians, the early Jewish Christians probably needed some help to realize both they and the Samaritan Jesus believers were of one universal church.
 
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YahuahSaves

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I can't believe this thread is still going lol.
This lie has been around from the beginning.

Genesis 3
3 The serpent was the shrewdest of all the wild animals the Lord God had made. One day he asked the woman, “Did God really say you must not eat the fruit from any of the trees in the garden?”

2 “Of course we may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,” the woman replied. 3 “It’s only the fruit from the tree in the middle of the garden that we are not allowed to eat. God said, ‘You must not eat it or even touch it; if you do, you will die.’”

4 “You won’t die!” the serpent replied to the woman. 5 “God knows that your eyes will be opened as soon as you eat it, and you will be like God, knowing both good and evil.”

6 The woman was convinced. She saw that the tree was beautiful and its fruit looked delicious, and she wanted the wisdom it would give her. So she took some of the fruit and ate it.

John 8:44

44 For you are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies.
 
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oikonomia

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I would rather underestimate than overestimate. The latter is pride.
I respect your caution. But the other risk is a false humility dumbing down "so great a salvation."

What is there to be proud of?
The salvation is totally of God and not of us.

It is He who lives always (unto eternity) to intercede for us. (Hebrews 7:25)
How else could so great a salvation be carried out?
All the glory goes to Him, the Triune God.
 
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Samson2021

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How do you feel about the passage which says that no one can say Jesus is Lord EXCEPT . . . in the Holy Spirit?

"Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking in the Spirit of God says, Jesus is accursed; and no one can say, Jesus is Lord! except in the Holy Spirit." (1 Cor. 12:3)

I believe that in Acts 8:4-25 the Samarian believers, who surely must have confessed Jesus was Lord, had not had the Pentacostal type outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon them.

I would agree, However; I truly believe that the passage above should be clarified by saying they who have the Holy Ghost actually mean it
when they say Jesus is Lord.
If I gave anybody on the street $20 to say Jesus is Lord I'd probably get close to 100% takers, but did any of them actually believe that is
the truth of the matter. No. But they'd do it for the money or whatever else might be offered.
Only one who is baptized in the Holy Ghost, thus born again, and knows His voice, is capable of saying it and knowing its true.
Even the false teachers would say that in order to infiltrate and lead astray babes in Christ.

Just a perspective.
 
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oikonomia

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I can't believe this thread is still going lol.
This lie has been around from the beginning.
Where is the lie?
God's Godhead is absolutely non-cummunicable.
Are you trying to insist that this thread advances otherwise?
Be fair now and check again the OP, the very first post of the discussion.

Genesis 3
3 The serpent was the shrewdest of all the wild animals the Lord God had made. One day he asked the woman, “Did God really say you must not eat the fruit from any of the trees in the garden?”
Is there anything written in this thread suggesting the serpent was not subtle?
The Devil still is subtle.

Now this serpent in Genesis 3 has in Revelation 12 is grown into a great red murderous dragon. And you know what? He is seen standing before the Woman of all of God's people on the earth, waiting to devour a certain component within her. That is within the woman and one with the woman are the overcomers. And particularly Satan is poised that this group of overcomers not be brought forth.

"And she was with child, and she cried out, travailing in birth and being in pain to bring forth.
And another sign was seen in heaven; and behold, there was a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, etc. etc. . . . and his tail drags awau the third part of the stars of heaven, and he csat them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bring forth, so that when she brings forh he might devour her child.

And she brought forth a son, a manchild, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne." (See Rev.12:2-5)

This child brought forth from the woman is a collective of overcomers. This is proved by the plural pronouns "they" and "their" and "them" verses 10.

"And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying. Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ. for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses THEM before our God day and night. And THEY overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of THEIR testimony, and THEY loved not their soul-life even unto death." (Rev. 12:10)

These overcomers are not proud. They owe their victory to the Lamb's redeeming blood, to the facts of the truth, and to loving Christ supremely even over their own martyred lives.

Concerning how God will reward and utilize them, it is not their proud power grab. But it is God's desire that what Christ does, THEY do also with Christ. This includes "shepherd all the nations with an iron rod" in the kingdom.

1.) What Christ God incarnate does - "And out of His mouth proceeds a sharp sword, that with it He might smite the nations; and He will shepherd them with an iron rod . . . " (Rev. 19:15)

2.) What Christ Who is God incarnate desires for this corporate group of overcomers - "And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations; and he will shepherd them with an iron rod as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces. even as I have received from My Father." (Rev. 2:26,27)

Do you think then what Christ desires FOR these overcomers they should NOT seek to please Him to be brought to such a co-reigning? I think what God desires is what we should consider normal course of His work. False humility could also be utilized by the enemy.

What the saving God desires for His Son in this case is also what He desires for those sons [plural] who overcome.
 
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oikonomia

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I would agree, However; I truly believe that the passage above should be clarified by saying they who have the Holy Ghost actually mean it
when they say Jesus is Lord.
If I gave anybody on the street $20 to say Jesus is Lord I'd probably get close to 100% takers, but did any of them actually believe that is
the truth of the matter. No. But they'd do it for the money or whatever else might be offered.
Only one who is baptized in the Holy Ghost, thus born again, and knows His voice, is capable of saying it and knowing its true.
Even the false teachers would say that in order to infiltrate and lead astray babes in Christ.

Just a perspective.

I am probably going to lean on steering our exchanges a little back towards my subject - Does God want man to be God?
Be careful about works of power.
Remember, Samson was mighty. But he could not overcome a silly little woman who pestered him to death.
In the end he slew more enemies by dying with them.

The sad story of the mighty, mighty powerful servant of God is really insightful.

My experience is that people do not so easily say "Jesus is Lord." Something in their conscience seems to warn them that
they are approaching an event horizon of some kind which will change their entire life.

Lifting up the name of the Lord in vain - now that is different.
 
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oikonomia

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What does anyone think about this petition of Jesus in John 17?

"Father, concerning that which You have given Me, I desire that they also may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory, which You hasve given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world." (John 17:24)

What do you think of that brothers?
 
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oikonomia

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When Jesus asked His Father - "I desire that they also may be with Me where I am . . . " I do not think He meant so much a physical location but a spiritual reality.

What is it to be with Him where He is ?

I think He means that those He is praying for would be in the reality of what He experienced.
That is such a oneness with the Father.

We would never ask this for ourselves. What do we do if Jesus Christ asks it of the Father on our behalf?
What shall we do? We must say "Amen Lord Jesus. Bring us in Lord. Only You can."

Let's check it one more time.


"Father, concerning that which You have given Me, I desire that they also may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory, which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world." (John 17:24)

Saints this is no small thing.
 
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ViaCrucis

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There are examples of people who were baptized and believed that had not yet received the Holy Ghost. He chooses us, we do not choose
Him. The infilling of the Holy Ghost is something a person will never forget as it is an experience and will cause you to speak things that
you have no idea what your saying. The believer that has received the Holy Ghost is no longer an actual believer, as they are now a knower.
They received by faith but now know and there is no doubt. My intention was not to offend but rather to challenge you as to whether you
fit the category of a true believer according to the words of Jesus Himself. He said they would speak in unknown tongues, cast out devils,
lay their hands on the sick etc..... These things are works that are given to the believer to do to verify for them who they are in Him.
The believer is to be like Jesus was in that they do nothing they do not hear or see the Father doing. They are instructed to be the
messenger to the one who is going to be healed for example, a casting out of an unclean spirit really isn't a big deal for they have to obey
those who have the Holy Ghost in them, they have no choice. If one is revealed to you then you simply tell it to get out in the name
of Jesus and it will go. These are not signs of one being more spiritual than another, they are simply signs given to the knower to confirm
their election.

Funny, my Bible never makes a distinction between "believers" and "knowers". It simply says that God is Faithful in keeping His promises, and that His promises are fulfilled through His word and His works.

Does Jesus say that only those who speak in tongues, drive out spirits, and drink poison have the Holy Spirit? Well, no, He sure doesn't. And no where in Scripture will you find anything even remotely like that. No where is it written that speaking with tongues is the evidence of having received the Holy Spirit, no where does it say that casting out devils is the evidence of having the Holy Spirit. No where. Not only is that found no where in Scripture, it's completely lacking in anything Christians have themselves believed, taught, and confessed over the last two thousand years.

Don't you find it the least bit suspicious how willing you are to believe something that the Scriptures don't say and which nobody in two thousand years of Christian history ever believed? Don't you consider it suspicious that the "Holy Spirit" would teach you things which were never taught and believed by the Apostles, or any Christians up until modern times, that God would teach you something completely new and different than what has always been believed and confessed?

What do you do with all the passages of Scripture which call you to abide in the teaching which has been given from the beginning? Time and again we read, for example in 2 Thessalonians 2:15, to hold firm to what has been received from the beginning, in Jude 1:3 to contend for the faith which has already been given to all the saints, in 1 Corinthians 15:3-11, that Paul preached what he himself had received, and that no one should believe any other gospel other than what had been preached from the beginning in Galatians 1:8 and 2 Corinthians 11:3-4.

We read that from the very beginning the Church operated in this way: They committed themselves to the apostles' teaching, to fellowship, to the breaking of bread, and to prayer (Acts 2:42).

Why would you teach things which the Apostles never taught? Believe things which have never been believed? And attribute to God your own personal feelings, experiences, and opinions rather than abide in the divinely inspired and divinely given truth which has been with us since the beginning?

Do not blame the Holy Spirit when you teach error, instead be corrected by the word of God. For it has been given for teaching, reproof, correction, and being trained in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16).

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Samson2021

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Does Jesus say that only those who speak in tongues, drive out spirits, and drink poison have the Holy Spirit? Well, no, He sure doesn't. And no where in Scripture will you find anything even remotely like that

Don't you find it the least bit suspicious how willing you are to believe something that the Scriptures don't say and which nobody in two thousand years of Christian history ever believed?

Why would you teach things which the Apostles never taught? Believe things which have never been believed?
Luke 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written
in heaven.

Luke 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou HAST HID THESE
THINGS FROM THE WISE AND PRUDENT,
and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

Red letters are His words.


Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; in My name shall they CAST OUT DEVILS; THEY SHALL SPEAK WITH NEW
TONGUES 18- They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick,
and they shall recover.


Looks like Jesus taught it.

I would ask if Jesus himself did all that you deny is taught by scripture? And you know the answer is yes and He had the Holy
Ghost.


The only example that I can think of is the Jews in Acts that attempted to cast out an unclean spirit that DID NOT have the
Holy Ghost and were utterly unsuccessful.
In fact the spirit actually said to those Jews in question "Jesus I know and Paul I know but who are you?" Why did He know Jesus
and Paul? The indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

The thing is that none of what Jesus taught that a believer would do is possible WITHOUT the Holy Ghost.

Believe what you wish I believe we are done here.


 
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