Does God Turn Away People Who Want to be Saved?

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Another distinction you missed is that there are two callings.

There is a general calling where the Gospel is preached, and the invitation is given.

However, there is also the "effectual call" that only the elect will respond to.

The perfect example would be found in Acts 13.

Paul and Barnabas had come to Antioch. There they preached. Acts 10:16-43.

The very next day, the entire town, rather as scripture says, the whole town turned out to hear them preach.

We don't know how many were there that day, but what we do know for sure is that there were some of the "elect" there.

And out of that crowd of who knows how many, only those who were "elect'/"ordained" believed. cf. Acts 10:48

Jesus is the one who says; 14 “For many are invited (called), but few are chosen.” And this comes right after and really part of: Parable of the Wedding Banquet in which: the king (God) sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

The point is God can invite people who can refuse to come, so not all who are invited go. This is all part of the time of the kingdom on earth (the period of time we are in). “The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son.”

We also have a person going to the feast (sounds like they at least partially accepted the invitation) and yet they refused to put on the wedding garment (this could be like refusing to be baptized) and thus were thrown out (sent to hell).

Paul preached to the Jews and God fearing gentiles: 38 “Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39 Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses. 40 Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you:

Now if they were not able to accept, then Paul is misleading them (lying to them) and yet we know some rejected:

46 Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.

Paul does not blame their lack of God given ability but their personal (free will) rejection.

Why would God waste His breath inviting (calling) people who cannot make the choice to come?

Does the fact that God does call some who refuse to go show His interest (Love) for them, yet no love is shown in the fact, you say: God does not provide them with the ability to accept?

Paul’s sermons, Christ’s parables, and what happened all seem to point to the fact every mature adult is being invited (called), yet some refuse of their own free will.

How do you explain Christ’s Love for the rich young ruler who refused Christ’s invitation (calling), when Christ knew the ruler did not have to potential to accept? Should Christ not have hated that hell bound sinful individual?

You did not mean Acts 10:48 but Acts 13: 48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Paul just got through saying this about the Jews in 46: “…do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life”, blaming the Jews for not obtaining eternal life.

This is not saying: “all those appointed to believe, believed”, but talks about the gift of eternal life going to those who believed. The “appointed for eternal life” are all those who believe and not the other way around where some are arbitrarily selected for eternal life and thus made to believe. If you are programed to believe what value is there in that type of believe/trust/love?

Now isn't that putting the cart before the horse?

You only become one of the "elect" once you accept and believe?

th

Right! Accepting of the invitation and the wedding garment makes you a guest of the King (God) and it also makes it not arbitrary or unfair/unjust/unloving on God’s part. All those at the wedding feast are the elect and were invited.

You agree some kind of a “call”/invitation goes out to everyone and some people accept and some refuse the invitation.

Think about it going the other way: God “arbitrarily” selects some to be elect without any good logical reason not to select everyone (thus making it unfair/unjust/unloving) and these few accept His invitation which is not their personal choice (they have been kidnapped into becoming His children)?

To quote:

"Some False Views Examined and Refute

Many professing Christians really have no view of election. They have not given it enough thought and study to even have any opinion about it. Many have erroneous views. We shall notice some of them.

1. The view that men are elected when they believe -- This view is easily refuted for it is contrary to both common sense and Scripture. Election is to salvation, and therefore, must precede salvation. It is nonsense to talk about electing a man to something he already has. The man has salvation when he believes and hence election at that point would not be necessary. ELECTION TOOK PLACE IN ETERNITY; SALVATION TAKES PLACE WHEN THE SINNER BELIEVES."

Source

Election always, always precedes salvation! Here are but a few verses which say it:

Eph. 1:1-6; 1 Thes. 1:4; 2 Thes. 2:13

And one of the very best is found here:

"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee" -Psa. 65:4 (KJV)

And best of all, it takes man out of the equation:

"Blessed [is the man whom] thou choosest



In eternity; both to grace and glory; for such have true faith in Christ given them, called the faith of God's elect, and shall never perish: they are effectually called by the grace of God, and are justified by the righteousness of Christ, and shall be glorified; or in time, for there is a choice in time, as the fruit, effect, and evidence of the eternal choice, and is no other than effectual calling; see ( John 15:19 ) ( 1 Corinthians 1:26 ) ; and happy are those who are both chosen and called; both election and the effectual calling are to grace and glory, and spring from the good will and pleasure of God; and the Targum in the king of Spain's Bible is,

``blessed is the man in whom thou art well pleased;''

Eph. 1:1-6

Paul is talking to those already in the church (the elect).

There is no issue with translating: “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world…” and “5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship…” to mean He chose believers (generally and not specific individuals) from the beginning of time to be the elect (those Paul is addressing)?

1 Thes. 1: 4 For we know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you,

What caused God to make the choice of them?

Paul goes on in the next verse to say: 5 because our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake. 6 You became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you welcomed the message in the midst of severe suffering with the joy given by the Holy Spirit.

If Paul does not preach to them will they not become chosen of God or was it their acceptance of the gospel which made them God’s chosen?

13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul specifically equates the call coming through the gospel they heard (believing comes through hearing) and not some miraculously mind altering by God.



Psalms 65:4 Blessed are those you choose and bring near to live in your courts!

That is not talking about being chosen from among the lost and does not say arbitrarily chosen so why were these chosen?

Your author says: “for such have true faith in Christ given them, called the faith of God's elect”.

It does not say some are miraculously provided a saving faith while other are not?

We know from lives experience every mature adult has the God given gift to trust (have faith) in something or someone including themselves, but that does not mean everyone directs their God given faith toward God, but does mean they can.

and causest to approach [unto thee];
the same Targum supplies,
``unto the fear of thee;''


or unto thy fear and worship. The persons whom God has chosen for himself are, in their state of nature, at a distance from him by reason of sin; and through the blood and sacrifice of Christ, by which atonement is made, they are brought nigh to him; and in the faith of Christ the Mediator, their hearts are engaged to approach unto God, and come with boldness to his throne, and ask grace and mercy of him; and through the grace of Christ they have nearness to him, and communion with him, ( Ephesians 2:18 ) ( 3:12 ) ;

John Gill Commentary on Psalms 65:4

A far cry from "that damnable heresy" people say.

God Bless

Till all are one.

We both agree on the blessings given Christians and all this is done by God’s grace.

The question is can a person of their own free will in a spiritual dead state do anything like the prodigal son did while in a dead state? Can a sinner wimp out, give up and surrender to his enemy (God)? Surrendering is not doing anything noble, righteous or worthy of anything, but it is something.
 
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DeaconDean

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Jesus is the one who says; 14 “For many are invited (called), but few are chosen.” And this comes right after and really part of: Parable of the Wedding Banquet in which: the king (God) sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

The point is God can invite people who can refuse to come, so not all who are invited go. This is all part of the time of the kingdom on earth (the period of time we are in). “The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son.”

We also have a person going to the feast (sounds like they at least partially accepted the invitation) and yet they refused to put on the wedding garment (this could be like refusing to be baptized) and thus were thrown out (sent to hell).

Paul preached to the Jews and God fearing gentiles: 38 “Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39 Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses. 40 Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you:

Now if they were not able to accept, then Paul is misleading them (lying to them) and yet we know some rejected:

46 Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.

Paul does not blame their lack of God given ability but their personal (free will) rejection.

Why would God waste His breath inviting (calling) people who cannot make the choice to come?

Does the fact that God does call some who refuse to go show His interest (Love) for them, yet no love is shown in the fact, you say: God does not provide them with the ability to accept?

Paul’s sermons, Christ’s parables, and what happened all seem to point to the fact every mature adult is being invited (called), yet some refuse of their own free will.

How do you explain Christ’s Love for the rich young ruler who refused Christ’s invitation (calling), when Christ knew the ruler did not have to potential to accept? Should Christ not have hated that hell bound sinful individual?

You did not mean Acts 10:48 but Acts 13: 48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Paul just got through saying this about the Jews in 46: “…do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life”, blaming the Jews for not obtaining eternal life.

This is not saying: “all those appointed to believe, believed”, but talks about the gift of eternal life going to those who believed. The “appointed for eternal life” are all those who believe and not the other way around where some are arbitrarily selected for eternal life and thus made to believe. If you are programed to believe what value is there in that type of believe/trust/love?



Right! Accepting of the invitation and the wedding garment makes you a guest of the King (God) and it also makes it not arbitrary or unfair/unjust/unloving on God’s part. All those at the wedding feast are the elect and were invited.

You agree some kind of a “call”/invitation goes out to everyone and some people accept and some refuse the invitation.

Think about it going the other way: God “arbitrarily” selects some to be elect without any good logical reason not to select everyone (thus making it unfair/unjust/unloving) and these few accept His invitation which is not their personal choice (they have been kidnapped into becoming His children)?







Eph. 1:1-6

Paul is talking to those already in the church (the elect).

There is no issue with translating: “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world…” and “5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship…” to mean He chose believers (generally and not specific individuals) from the beginning of time to be the elect (those Paul is addressing)?

1 Thes. 1: 4 For we know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you,

What caused God to make the choice of them?

Paul goes on in the next verse to say: 5 because our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake. 6 You became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you welcomed the message in the midst of severe suffering with the joy given by the Holy Spirit.

If Paul does not preach to them will they not become chosen of God or was it their acceptance of the gospel which made them God’s chosen?

13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul specifically equates the call coming through the gospel they heard (believing comes through hearing) and not some miraculously mind altering by God.



Psalms 65:4 Blessed are those you choose and bring near to live in your courts!

That is not talking about being chosen from among the lost and does not say arbitrarily chosen so why were these chosen?

Your author says: “for such have true faith in Christ given them, called the faith of God's elect”.

It does not say some are miraculously provided a saving faith while other are not?

We know from lives experience every mature adult has the God given gift to trust (have faith) in something or someone including themselves, but that does not mean everyone directs their God given faith toward God, but does mean they can.



We both agree on the blessings given Christians and all this is done by God’s grace.

The question is can a person of their own free will in a spiritual dead state do anything like the prodigal son did while in a dead state? Can a sinner wimp out, give up and surrender to his enemy (God)? Surrendering is not doing anything noble, righteous or worthy of anything, but it is something.

You have your version of the truth, I have mine.

Good thing for me, mine is back y scripture.

Try to explain it away, but you cannot.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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Let me put it this way, I have given a plain, clear, and concise exegesis of all the scriptures in question.

I have supplied both Hebrew and Greek words, with definitions supplied by well reputable sources. I have supplied material from well known authors, and plenty of commentary to back my position as well.

What have you given?

Your opinion as to what the scriptures say.

"דברי עונת גברו מני פשעינו אתה תכפרם" -Psa. 65:4 Hebrew OT

And no matter how you try to explain it away, the Hebrew word here "thbchr" is the same Hebrew word, although parsed differently, that is used in Deut. 7:6.

And it can be rendered as "elect".

The Hebrew word in Deut. 7:6 may be defined and used as:

"to choose, elect, decide for
  1. (Qal) to choose

  2. (Niphal) to be chosen

  3. (Pual) to be chosen, selected"
Source

It is also the same word used in Deut. 14:2.

And it is found also in Psa. 65:4:

"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, H977 and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple."

So it would not be improper to render Psa. 65:4 as:

"Blessed is the man whom thou "elects", H977 and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple."

"Strong's Number H977 matches the Hebrew בָּחַר (bachar), which occurs 172 times in 164 verses in the Hebrew"

Source

Our text here, as well as text from the New Testament agree in that it is God whom "elects/chooses". And then, God causes them to approach Him.

And never ceases to amaze me that in all my time here, the same results come about.

No matter how small it is, no matter how insignificant is it, man absolutely insists that he plays some part, no matter how small it is, in his salvation.

Now, until you can produce material, not your own opinions, that refute that material I have supplied, I will consider the matter resolved.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Monk Brendan

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Isn't love the true test of orthodoxy? If so, there are certainly some monks, priests and nuns who prove themselves on the other side of orthodoxy.

No, I'm just speaking of my opinions.
 
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Monk Brendan

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Where in Romans 8 & 9 are those mentioned.

I understand -- many can't stand these chapters in Romans.

They cry and cry -- that ain't fair.
Fair in our thinking?
Or fair in God's thinking?

I trust in God (Christ)


Bob, consider if you yourself had worked as hard as you can to understand and accept God's Word, and His love, etc., and then would be left out of that "ELECT" label that you feel you wear so happily. What would YOU say to God if He said, "I don't know who you are?"

And did you know that TRUSTING is a WORK?
 
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Monk Brendan

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Mountainmanbob said


Regarding your above



1 -- Never Thought or Said that I was.

Are you a mind reader?


No, can you see into my soul? NO! So don't set yourself up as "fruit inspector"


Mountainmanbob said: ↑



2 -- Couldn't have been me

I'm only 66 years old.



But Lutherans, Calvinists, and so on HAVE been arguing for hundreds of years, and you know full well what I meant--you are being intentionally obtuse. (And I know, you didn't study geometry, either)


Mountainmanbob said: ↑



3-- Where did that come from?



This is a quote from a different post, taken out of context.


Mountainmanbob said: ↑



4 -- It seems you didn't mention Pastors there. I prefer ones such as John MacArthur or RC Sproul thank you. Both have written Study Bibles and Preached the Word of God for over 50 years.


According to the ancient Church, the only people that could teach/proclaim the Word would have been deacons, priests, and bishops. Not "pastors" unless they are ordained to do so.


Don't get me wrong. The priest at our church is Fr. Peter, and he has a pastor's heart. But it is because he has been ordained that he can be that great pastor. Pastors have an important part in the Church, but it is because of their anointing, and not in spite of their anointing.


5. (Back to you) Read The Complete Works of St. John Chrysostom. This man was a bishop, and he was a great teacher/preacher/pastor. "Chrysostom" means "golden mouth." He will give you a better explanation that I ever could ever give. He wrote many books. You can find his
 
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Mountainmanbob

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Jesus's words were I believe, I never knew you.

There probably will be some that will be fooled but, in the end they probably only fooled themselves.

To your question Monk B
I'm thinking that all of those who do seek God with all of their heart are being called by God. As the Bible states to the others the Word is foolishness. They have no desire for God or the thought of God.

I guess the question would be, did they harden their heart or did God harden their heart or maybe a little of both or maybe a lot of both?

There may be some things in the Bible that I might not think to be fair but, I never question what God thinks is fair and just. I or we do not have the eyes to see that, for he is the almighty God the Creator of earth and heaven.

M-Bob
 
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