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Does God Turn Away People Who Want to be Saved?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by jimmyjimmy, Jul 31, 2017.

  1. Hammster

    Hammster Bears, beets, Battlestar Galactica Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Please show any scripture that states or implies that world only means mature adults.
     
  2. Blade

    Blade Veteran Supporter

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    All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
     
  3. jimmyjimmy

    jimmyjimmy Pardoned Rebel Supporter

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    Like this?

    So the Pharisees said to one another, “You see that you are gaining nothing. Look, the world has gone after him.”
     
  4. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    I did not say that, it all has to do with context.
     
  5. Hammster

    Hammster Bears, beets, Battlestar Galactica Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Please show anywhere in scripture that world means mature adults.
     
  6. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    You are taking me out of context I was using sarcasm to M-Bob's logic (the we cannot assume the meaning of words is obvious and used examples where M-bob would not make hid assumption). I was in response to :
    Those verses are self-explanatory easily read, easily understood, God says what he says.
    M-Bob
     
  7. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    I gave you this example and explanation;

    John 3: 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”


    16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.


    In the context “the world” is referring to people who are mature enough to: “believe”, need to be saved, those also who do not believe, does evil, can go into the light, live in truth, and can be seen plainly they have done stuff in the sight of God.
     
  8. Hammster

    Hammster Bears, beets, Battlestar Galactica Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Where does it say that they have to be a certain age?
     
  9. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    There is no "certain age", but it talks about them doing stuff only mature adults can do of their own free will, believing or not believing is the big one. A child is not old enough to be held accountable for believing or not believing.
     
  10. Hammster

    Hammster Bears, beets, Battlestar Galactica Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Where does scripture state anything about children not being accountable?
     
  11. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    Why would Jesus use infants as a model for all believers to imitate in character if they were "utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil"? Mt 18:1-3; 19:13-14

    Paul also used infants as a model of purity for Christians to follow: 1 Cor 14:20

    Paul states that he was once spiritually alive but then he sinned & died/was killed: Rom 7:9-11

    God said that the king of Tyrus was "blameless in your ways from the day you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you." Ezek 28:15

    "God made men upright but they sought devices" Eccl 7:29 (plural can't refer only to Adam)

    Newborns do not know the difference between good and evil

    God allowed the children to enter Canaan but not the parents: "your little ones who...have no knowledge of good and evil shall enter". Deut 1:34-39

    Jesus "Before He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good" Isa 7:15-16

    Jer 19:2-6 human sacrifices of children to Baal is called the "blood of the innocent"

    If newborns do not know "good or evil" yet the Bible says , "Your sins have separated you from your God" (Isa 59:1-2) then newborns must be born united with God.

    We are made in the image of God so is that evil?

    The second Spiritual death implies a first spiritual death & initial spiritual life:

    Second death is hell: It is a spiritual separation from God: Rev 20:6,14

    First death is when we first sin and are separated from God till judgement

    For us to die a first death we must have been spiritually alive at birth.
     
  12. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    The problem I have with your post is the "parable" of the feast was one directed at the disciples in regards to Jesus coming into His own, and His own received Him not.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  13. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    The Banquet Parables were said just after these statements;

    45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them. 46 They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a prophet.

    15 When one of those at the table with him heard this, he said to Jesus, “Blessed is the one who will eat at the feast in the kingdom of God.”


    We already agreed to the fact: 14 “For many are invited (the same word for called), but few are chosen.”

    And that is used to describe what is happen with the banquet.

    So the number of the called is much greater than those that are chosen?

    Just as the parable of the soils talks about the Kingdom these banquet parables talk about the Kingdom, so kingdom parables do not just refer to the “elect”?
     
  14. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Right there, you helped to prove my point.

    Thank you.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  15. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Unless I'm mistaken, you have taken these two verses out of context.

    There is nothing mentioned in Mt. 21 about a feast.

    The context just immediate to verses 45-46 say:

    "33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:

    34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.

    35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.

    36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.

    37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

    38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

    39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

    40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

    41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

    42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

    43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

    44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

    45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

    46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet." Mt. 21:33-46 (KJV)

    And here again, the context was about how Israel, but more importantly the scribes, Sadduces, and Pharisees had rejected Christ.

    "He came unto his own, and his own received him not." -Jn. 1:11 (KJV)

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  16. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Lets begin.

    First off, regarding Matt. 20:16, you are correct, the Greek word here is the same as "elect".

    But in doing so, we must also acknowledge that there are two (2) calls.

    There is the "universal calling" one in which the Gospel is preached to all men. And the "effectual calling".

    Thomas Watson puts it this way:

    "WHAT IS EFFECTUAL CALLING?

    A: It is a gracious work of the Spirit, whereby he causes us to embrace Christ freely, as he is offered to us in the gospel.

    In this verse is the golden chain of salvation, made up of four links, of which one is vocation. Them he also called.' Calling is nova creatio, a new creation,' the first resurrection. There is a two-fold call: (1.) An outward call: (2.) An inward call.

    (1.) An outward call, which is God's offer of grace to sinners, inviting them to come and accept of Christ and salvation. Many are called, but few chosen.' Matt 20:16. This call shows men what they ought to do in order to salvation, and renders them inexcusable in case of disobedience.

    (2.) There is an inward call, when God with the offer of grace works grace. By this call the heart is renewed, and the will is effectually drawn to embrace Christ. The outward call brings men to a profession of Christ, the inward to a possession of Christ.

    What are the means of this effectual call?

    Every creature has a voice to call us. The heavens call to us to behold God's glory. Psalm 19:9: Conscience calls to us. God's judgements call us to repent. Hear ye the rod.' Mic 6:6. But every voice does not convert. There are two means of our effectual call:

    (1.) The preaching of the word,' which is the sounding of God's silver trumpet in men's ears. God speaks not by an oracle, he calls by his ministers. Samuel thought it had been the voice of Eli only that called him; but it was God's voice. I Sam 3:3. So, perhaps, you think it is only the minister that speaks to you in the word, but it is God himself who speaks. Therefore Christ is said to speak to us from heaven. Heb 12:25. How does he speak but by his ministers? as a king speaks by his ambassadors. Know, that in every sermon preached, God calls to you; and to refuse the message we bring, is to refuse God himself.

    (2.) The other means of our effectual call is the Holy Spirit. The ministry of the word is the pipe or organ; the Spirit of God blowing in it, effectually changes men's hearts. While Peter spake, the Holy Ghost fell on all them that heard the word of God.' Acts 10:04. Ministers knock at the door of men's hearts, the Spirit comes with a key and opens the door. A certain woman named Lydia, whose heart the Lord opened.' Acts 16:14."

    Effectual Calling, A Body of Divinity, Thomas Watson

    And regarding the verses you also mentioned, I include John Calvin's own comments:

    "The expression of our Savior, “Many are called, but few are chosen,” (Mt. 22:14), is also very improperly interpreted (see Book 3, chap. 2, sec. 11, 12). There will be no ambiguity in it, if we attend to what our former remarks ought to have made clear—viz. that there are two species of calling: for there is an universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike, even those for whom he designs the call to be a savor of death, and the ground of a severer condemnation. Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts. Sometimes, however, he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness. Now, our Lord seeing that the gospel was published far and wide, was despised by multitudes, and justly valued by few, describes God under the character of a King, who, preparing a great feast, sends his servants all around to invite a great multitude, but can only obtain the presence of a very few, because almost all allege causes of excuse; at length, in consequence of their refusal, he is obliged to send his servants out into the highways to invite every one they meet. It is perfectly clear, that thus far the parable is to be understood of external calling. He afterwards adds, that God acts the part of a kind entertainer, who goes round his table and affably receives his guests; but still if he finds any one not adorned with the nuptial garment, he will by no means allow him to insult the festivity by his sordid dress. I admit that this branch of the parable is to be understood of those who, by a profession of faith, enter the Church, but are not at all invested with the sanctification of Christ. Such disgraces to his Church, such cankers God will not always tolerate, but will cast them forth as their turpitude deserves. Few, then, out of the great number of called are chosen; the calling, however, not being of that kind which enables believers to judge of their election. The former call is common to the wicked, the latter brings with it the spirit of regeneration, which is the earnest and seal of the future inheritance by which our hearts are sealed unto the day of the Lord (Eph. 1:13, 14). In one word, while hypocrites pretend to piety, just as if they were true worshipers of God, Christ declares that they will ultimately be ejected from the place which they improperly occupy, as it is said in the psalm, “Lord, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill? He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart,” (Psalm 15:1, 2). Again in another passage, “This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob,” (Psalm 24:6). And thus the Spirit exhorts believers to patience, and not to murmur because Ishmaelites are mingled with them in the Church since the mask will at length be torn off, and they will be ejected with disgrace."

    Institutes of the Christian Religion, John Calvin, Book III, Chapter 24, Section 8

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  17. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Forgive me, but you appear to be educated. So I'm finding it hard to understand as to why you "piecemeal" verses to come up with whatever you want the scripture to say.

    Oh well, lets address this.

    Beginning with Luke 14:15, John Gill comments:

    "And when one of them that sat at meat with him
    One of the Scribes, lawyers, or Pharisees, that were guests at this feast:

    heard these things:
    which were spoken by Christ, and was pleased and affected with them, though he was ignorant:
    he said unto him, blessed is he that shall eat bread in the
    kingdom of God
    ;

    in the world to come, in the kingdom of the Messiah; concerning feasting in which, the Jews had entertained very gross notions; and which this man was reminded of by Christ's making mention of the resurrection of the just, and of recompense at that time, which the Jews expected at the Messiah's coming. They suppose, that God will make a splendid feast, a sumptuous entertainment; in which, besides "bread", which they call, (twklm lv hmxl) , "the bread of the kingdom", and "the bread of the world to come" F13, there will be great variety of flesh, fish, and fowl, plenty of generous wine, and all sorts of delicious fruit: particularly they speak of a large ox, which they suppose to be the Behemoth in Job, that will then be prepared; and of Leviathan and his mate, which will then be dressed; and of a large fowl, called Ziz, of a monstrous size; and of old wine kept in the grape from the creation of the world, which will then be drank; and of the rich fruits of the garden of Eden, that will then be served up F14: such gross and carnal notions have they entertained of the world to come; and which this man seemed to have imbibed, and placed happiness in.
    FOOTNOTES:

    F13 Midrash Ruth, fol. 33. 2. Bereshit Rabba, sect. 82. fol. 72. 4.
    F14 See my Notes on the Targum in Cant. viii. 2."

    Luke 14:15, John Gill

    In all your examples, you forgot this:

    "16 A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:

    17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.

    18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.

    19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.

    20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.

    21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.

    22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.

    23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.

    24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper." -Lk. 14:16-24 (KJV)

    Again, John Gill comments on Lk. 14:24:

    "For I say unto you
    Most solemnly affirm it, and even swear to it, nothing is more certain, or will be found more true:

    that none of those men that were bidden:
    the impenitent and unbelieving Jews, the Scribes, and Pharisees, and the greater part of the nation; who first had the Gospel published to them, who are the many that were called, though few were chosen, and therefore came not; nor did, nor

    shall taste of my supper:
    nor had they so much as a superficial knowledge of the Gospel, of the truths, blessings, promises, and ordinances of it; being given up to judicial blindness and hardness of heart; and from whom, in a little while, the Gospel was wholly taken; and is not yet afforded to them as a body; nor will till the latter day, when the veil shall be taken away, and they shall turn to the Lord, and all Israel shall be saved; but as for the first disbelievers and rejecters of Christ among the Jews, they died in their sins, and perished eternally."

    Lk. 14:24, John Gill

    So not only have you helped me to prove my point, but it is also backed up by various commentary.

    In fact, during Jesus' three year ministry, He only twice ever witnessed to a Gentile. (cf. Mt. 15:21-28; John 4)

    When Jesus sent His disciples out, they were specifically instructed: "Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." -Mt. 10:5-6 (KJV)

    And to compound it further, Jesus Himself said: "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." -Mt. 15:24 (KJV)

    So if you really, really want to get to it, in the phrase "few are chosen", and taking that you could substitute "elect" here, the passage still refers back to Israel. They are the elect according to Deut. 7:6!

    "God’s promise to Abraham was the basis for the election of Israel to be God’s people. Israel became a nation after it was delivered from Egypt and established a covenant with God at Sinai. The belief that Israel was the special people of God is affirmed throughout the Old Testament.

    The history of Israel’s relationship with God is the central reality of the Old Testament. The choice of Israel to be God’s people has a universal dimension. No other nation in the history of the world has influenced humanity more than Israel. Israel’s religious contribution to humanity is greater than any other nation, for it was to Israel that God introduced himself in the greatest act of unselfish love ever demonstrated to humanity. To comprehend Israel’s religious contribution to our understanding of God, one is compelled to understand the concept of God’s election of Israel as his special people.

    The study of Israel’s election must begin with two questions. The first question is one of definition: What is the meaning of election? The second question is one of purpose: Why did God choose Israel to be his special people?

    The word “election” comes from the Hebrew word bahar (Hebrew בחר) which means “to choose,” “to elect.” However, although the word bahar does not appear in the call of Abraham, the concept of divine election pervades the whole Old Testament. The idea of divine election is emphasized in the book of Deuteronomy: “For you are a people holy to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on earth to be his people, his treasured possession” (Deuteronomy 7:6).

    Although the basic concept of election is expressed by the word bahar, other words are also used to convey the idea that Israel was set apart as God’s special people. The terminology of election includes the word bahar “to choose,” qara’ “to call,” yada‘ “to know,” and bādal “to separate.”Amos uses the word yada‘ to express Israel’s election: “You only have I known of all the families of the earth” (Amos 3:2). The expressions “treasured possession” and “the people of the Lord” also convey the idea of election.

    The second question, “why did God choose Israel?” is answered by Deuteronomy 7:7-8: “ It was not because you were more in number than any other people that the LORD set his love upon you and chose you, for you were the fewest of all peoples; but it is because the LORD loves you, and is keeping the oath which he swore to your fathers, that the LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.”

    The choice of Israel to be a special people, at its most basic meaning, testifies to the fact of unmerited grace. God did not choose Israel because they were worthy of being chosen. In fact, God chose a people who were slaves in Egypt, redeemed them and established a special relationship with them. The point that the writer of Deuteronomy was trying to convey to the new generation of Israelites was that it was because of God’s faithful love (hesed) and because of the promise he had made to Abraham that he, in his sovereignty, elected Israel to be his special people and his special possession. God told Israel on Mount Sinai: “Out of all the nations you will be my own special possession” (Exodus 19:5)."

    The Election of Israel, Dr. Claude Mariottini

    Jesus came into His own, and His own received Him not.

    I want to thank you for helping me to make my point(s).

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017
  18. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    I was addressing this: The problem I have with your post is the "parable" of the feast was one directed at the disciples in regards to Jesus coming into His own, and His own received Him not.

    It was said among nonbelievers for their benefit and not just the disciples, is the point I was making. We know later when the Church is established many Pharisees and Priests will become members and some of them could be in these groups.

    The idea is “many are called” which is just quoting Jesus and yet not all become part of the “called out”/ elect. In these parables the difference between those called and those that become part of God’s guests are some refuse the call and others refuse to put on the wedding garments. The “chosen” are thus those who accept and there is no second calling by God. God’s choice is those who accept.
     
  19. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    It does not matter if Jesus was speaking privately to His disciples, or whether He was teaching in the temple.

    It does not negate, nor nullify the fact that what He said, was directed mainly at the scribes, Sanhedrin, Sadduces, and Pharisees, and Israel in general.

    First lesson in biblical hermanutics is: context, context, context.

    And you stepped all over that.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  20. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Another distinction you missed is that there are two callings.

    There is a general calling where the Gospel is preached, and the invitation is given.

    However, there is also the "effectual call" that only the elect will respond to.

    The perfect example would be found in Acts 13.

    Paul and Barnabas had come to Antioch. There they preached. Acts 10:16-43.

    The very next day, the entire town, rather as scripture says, the whole town turned out to hear them preach.

    We don't know how many were there that day, but what we do know for sure is that there were some of the "elect" there.

    And out of that crowd of who knows how many, only those who were "elect'/"ordained" believed. cf. Acts 10:48

    Now isn't that putting the cart before the horse?

    You only become one of the "elect" once you accept and believe?

    [​IMG]

    To quote:

    "Some False Views Examined and Refute

    Many professing Christians really have no view of election. They have not given it enough thought and study to even have any opinion about it. Many have erroneous views. We shall notice some of them.

    1. The view that men are elected when they believe -- This view is easily refuted for it is contrary to both common sense and Scripture. Election is to salvation, and therefore, must precede salvation. It is nonsense to talk about electing a man to something he already has. The man has salvation when he believes and hence election at that point would not be necessary. ELECTION TOOK PLACE IN ETERNITY; SALVATION TAKES PLACE WHEN THE SINNER BELIEVES."

    Source

    Election always, always precedes salvation! Here are but a few verses which say it:

    Eph. 1:1-6; 1 Thes. 1:4; 2 Thes. 2:13

    And one of the very best is found here:

    "Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee" -Psa. 65:4 (KJV)

    And best of all, it takes man out of the equation:

    "Blessed [is the man whom] thou choosest

    In eternity; both to grace and glory; for such have true faith in Christ given them, called the faith of God's elect, and shall never perish: they are effectually called by the grace of God, and are justified by the righteousness of Christ, and shall be glorified; or in time, for there is a choice in time, as the fruit, effect, and evidence of the eternal choice, and is no other than effectual calling; see ( John 15:19 ) ( 1 Corinthians 1:26 ) ; and happy are those who are both chosen and called; both election and the effectual calling are to grace and glory, and spring from the good will and pleasure of God; and the Targum in the king of Spain's Bible is,

    ``blessed is the man in whom thou art well pleased;''


    and causest to approach [unto thee];
    the same Targum supplies,
    ``unto the fear of thee;''


    or unto thy fear and worship. The persons whom God has chosen for himself are, in their state of nature, at a distance from him by reason of sin; and through the blood and sacrifice of Christ, by which atonement is made, they are brought nigh to him; and in the faith of Christ the Mediator, their hearts are engaged to approach unto God, and come with boldness to his throne, and ask grace and mercy of him; and through the grace of Christ they have nearness to him, and communion with him, ( Ephesians 2:18 ) ( 3:12 ) ;

    John Gill Commentary on Psalms 65:4

    A far cry from "that damnable heresy" people say.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
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