Does God Try His Best to Save Everyone?

[jimmyjimmy]

Can the Potter "violate" the clay's freewill?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Maybe He is unable to save everyone due to the methods required to save a person.

Which methods might those be?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Yes.
God has done His level best to save the entire world...
With one caveat.

He will not deny the way He already decreed for men to be made...

With a FREE WILL.

If I see you walking in front of an oncoming train, I'll remember what you've said here, and I promise not to "violate" your free will and push you out of the way.

 

[Hammster]

If I see you walking in front of an oncoming train, I'll remember what you've said here, and I promise not to "violate" your free will and push you out of the way.

I get the impression, based on the reasoning of some, that I'm a much better parent than God is. I violate the free will of those I love all of the time.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I get the impression, based on the reasoning of some, that I'm a much better parent than God is. I violate the free will of those I love all of the time.

If you poke your eye out with those scissors, don't come crying to me.

If you fall out of that tree and break your leg, don't come running to me.

I'm eternally grateful that God "violated" my freewill and saved me in spite of the fact that I hated Him.

 

[Hammster]

If you poke your eye out with those scissors, don't come bring to me.

If you fall out of that tree and break your leg, don't come running to me.

I'm eternally grateful that God "violated" my freewill and saved me in spite of the fact that I hated Him.

Amen!

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Amen!

The most grateful, loving, compassionate people on earth are those who God has saved - completely saved. At least they are the only ones who have the potential to be.

 

[Neogaia777]

A moth to a flame is going to die. A man to God is going to be made alive.

I'm not sure how you mean the fishing thing, but remember, God doesn't fish with bait. He uses nets.

I was referring to the seductiveness of grace, it burns, till the fire that fuels it, pride, is weeded out...

It is meant to make your old spirit nature die, not a literal death but a metaphorical, spiritual one, leading to a spiritual resurrection...

God Bless!

 

[Open Heart]

If God desires all men to be saved, why aren't they? Is it that He isn't trying hard enough?

Please answer the following question without changing any of God's attributes. Why aren't all men saved, if indeed God desire all men (without exception) to be saved?

God is all powerful, but chooses not to use His power in some instances. Why? Because He wants children rather than robots and so has imbued us with free will. It is an act of His sovereignty that He will have these children who choose to love Him. He will let nothing come between this objective and Himself.

 

[cuja1]

Which methods might those be?

It's just my thought and I could easily be wrong. It's a little hard to explain.

Say God just saved everyone right off the bat. Everyone automatically loves God, loves righteousness, etc... This truly would make us robots.

We have to experience good and bad in this world to be able to appreciate what is truly good and hate what is truly bad. So everyone starts off basically bad and over time learns to love what is truly good. But to love what is good you have to experience the bad.

So the bad has to exist. People aren't forced to love evil, they just are that way. They will continue to be that way until God can mold their heart through their experiences to love what is good.

Maybe that is the only process available.

 

[bling]

If God desires all men to be saved, why aren't they? Is it that He isn't trying hard enough?

Please answer the following question without changing any of God's attributes. Why aren't all men saved, if indeed God desire all men (without exception) to be saved?



* I do not believe that God has ever intended to save all people, but many people do, so I am interested in their replies.

The reason you have free will is because it is required for you to complete your earthly objective.

This messed up world is not here for your pleasure, but to help you become like God Himself in that you have the unique, unbelievable Godly type Love (God himself is Love).

God has created beings to shower them with the greatest gifts possible, the greatest being having a Love like His.

If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.

Why would God have a totally unselfish type of Love, since He personally would not get anything out of it? If God’s “Love” is some kind of knee jerk reaction, then it is really meaningless (something like; gravity which is nice to have, but everyone automatically has it). God Loves us in spite of what we have done, who we are or what we will do, so it has to be by His choice.



So God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force in all universes, since that force compels even God to do all He does) and thus we become like He is (the greatest gift He could give).

What keeps the all-powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation, eliminating the need for free will and this earthly time:

There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), the big inability for us is create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)



This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or even deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).



An unselfish God would be doing all He can to help willing individuals to make that free will decision to accept His Love. Again, since God will not be forcing these individuals, they have to be willing (it is their choice) and God cannot “make” them willing since that is robotic action. God can only at best make them free will agent (like God is) and capable of make the right decision without the selection being worthy of anything (it is a gift of pure charity).



This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.



Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.



All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

If the nonbeliever had knowledge of God's existence that person would not need faith in God's existence, but faith is needed for humility and humility is needed to humbly accept pure charity and the only way to get Godly type Love is through accepting it as pure charity in the form of forgiveness.

That is an introduction to a huge topic.

 

[cuja1]

The reason you have free will is because it is required for you to complete your earthly objective.

This messed up world is not here for your pleasure, but to help you become like God Himself in that you have the unique, unbelievable Godly type Love (God himself is Love).

God has created beings to shower them with the greatest gifts possible, the greatest being having a Love like His.

If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.

Why would God have a totally unselfish type of Love, since He personally would not get anything out of it? If God’s “Love” is some kind of knee jerk reaction, then it is really meaningless (something like; gravity which is nice to have, but everyone automatically has it). God Loves us in spite of what we have done, who we are or what we will do, so it has to be by His choice.



So God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force in all universes, since that force compels even God to do all He does) and thus we become like He is (the greatest gift He could give).

What keeps the all-powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation, eliminating the need for free will and this earthly time:

There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), the big inability for us is create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)



This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or even deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).



An unselfish God would be doing all He can to help willing individuals to make that free will decision to accept His Love. Again, since God will not be forcing these individuals, they have to be willing (it is their choice) and God cannot “make” them willing since that is robotic action. God can only at best make them free will agent (like God is) and capable of make the right decision without the selection being worthy of anything (it is a gift of pure charity).



This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.



Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.



All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

If the nonbeliever had knowledge of God's existence that person would not need faith in God's existence, but faith is needed for humility and humility is needed to humbly accept pure charity and the only way to get Godly type Love is through accepting it as pure charity in the form of forgiveness.

That is an introduction to a huge topic.

I think God can make people willing if they ask God to make them willing.

 

[Hammster]

I think God can make people willing if they ask God to make them willing.

Wouldn't they already be willing?

 

[cuja1]

Wouldn't they already be willing?

I think so. Maybe there are degrees of willingness.

I remember asking God to give me the desire to stop smoking bc i didn't even want to quit.

After I finally quit, i realized the desire must have already been there, it just wasn't a very strong desire. Or maybe it would be more accurate to say that i didn't have the ability.

At any rate, I never created the desire to quit, nor did i create the desire to want to want to quit. Does that make me a robot?

 

[JohnKing67]

If God desires all men to be saved, why aren't they? Is it that He isn't trying hard enough?

Please answer the following question without changing any of God's attributes. Why aren't all men saved, if indeed God desire all men (without exception) to be saved?

I think God tries but some people won't respond and want to live their own lives without interference from God. Should God save them against their will?

 

[bling]

I think God can make people willing if they ask God to make them willing.

Circumstances will bring every mature adult to their senses similar to the way the prodigal son was brought to his senses by the pigsty (Luke 15: 11-32). God allows sinners to spiral down into life’s pigsty.

When a nonbeliever is brought to their senses than they can make an autonomous free will choice (willing choice) to either be macho hang in there and fight to their death, be strong and take the punishment they fully deserve and be willing to pay the piper OR they can wimp out, give up and surrender to their enemy (who at the time of their surrender is still their enemy). They certainly know they are totally undeserving and should be destroyed for their previous war crimes, but God just needs them to be accepting of His pure charity. God will shower them with unbelievable wonderful gifts which will change them.

If a mature adult does not have a “will” to make this very simple limited free will choice than the lost would be God’s fault and also realize the prodigal son did nothing “worthy” of anything and was motivated by selfish reasoning (he wanted just some kind of life), which is the same selfish motivation of the nonbeliever.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

It's just my thought and I could easily be wrong. It's a little hard to explain.

Say God just saved everyone right off the bat. Everyone automatically loves God, loves righteousness, etc... This truly would make us robots.

We have to experience good and bad in this world to be able to appreciate what is truly good and hate what is truly bad. So everyone starts off basically bad and over time learns to love what is truly good. But to love what is good you have to experience the bad.

So the bad has to exist. People aren't forced to love evil, they just are that way. They will continue to be that way until God can mold their heart through their experiences to love what is good.

Maybe that is the only process available.

You've described Romans 9.

If there were no sin, two of God's attributes would have never been demonstrated to the universe: Both his wrath and mercy would be forever-unknown if sin had not entered the world.

 

[Neogaia777]

You've described Romans 9.

If there were no sin, two of God's attributes would have never been demonstrated to the universe: Both his wrath and mercy would be forever-unknown if sin had not entered the world.

His anger, or his Love...

Yes, that is a conundrum for sure...

We had to go through this, or know this, to get to that, kind of thing...?

God Bless!

 

[jimmyjimmy]

His anger, or his Love...

Yes, that is a conundrum for sure...

We had to go through this, or know this, to get to that, kind of thing...?

God Bless!

a) It's not about us. It's about God's glory.

b) Yes.

c) We are not innocents.

d) it is a tough pill to swallow. I understand that; however, once mulled over, and seen in light of all scripture, it begins to become very clear.

 

[RisenInJesus]

Before I answer, what do you think irresistible grace is/does?

I thought I'd have the time to respond much sooner, but the last several days have been extremely busy. Sorry for the delay.

Since 'irresistible or efficacious grace" is no where to be found in the scriptures, at least from my reading and study, I can only base my thoughts concerning it on the writings of those who espouse this teaching. I have listed a few below. From what I understand it was Catholic St. Augustine who first developed the concept of irresistible or efficacious grace which is applied only to the elect. I will say that when I read explanations or hear people speak about irresistible grace I find it confusing and contradictory sounding, nothing like the simple message of grace in the Bible and it does often sound as if one is made willing.

The Westminster Confession of Faith expresses this doctrine by saying, "All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, by his word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace." (Chap. X, Sect. 1)

"The doctrine of irresistible grace does not mean that every influence of the Holy Spirit cannot be resisted. It means that the Holy Spirit can overcome all resistance and make his influence irresistible." John Piper

“The doctrine of irresistible grace is easily understood. Once we understand the condition of man in sin, that he is dead, enslaved to a corrupt nature, incapable of doing what is pleasing to God, we can fully understand the simple assertion that God must raise the dead sinner to life. That is all, really, the phrase means: it has nothing to do with sinners rebelling against God and ‘resisting’ Him in that way. It has nothing to do with the fact that Christians often resist God’s grace in their lives when they sin against Him. No, irresistible grace means one thing: God raises dead sinners to life.” James White