I'm a Christian and I believe in sovereign grace and in the total depravity of man (you could say that I'm kind of Reformed), but how can I say to people, when witnessing, that God loves them, when in fact God only has true love for His elect? If someone says that God's love towards all people is manifested by the fact that God gave them life, and food, and air, and family... well, that would mean that God loves non-elect in the same way He loves ants, and grass and my dog... that is not true "love", is it? This question has been bugging me for some time now and I would really appreciate some help. Thank you.
Does God truly love the non-elect?
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dhh712
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I think He has compassion on many if not all, and my opinion is that it shouldn't be understood that He merely provides them with necessities. The Bible tells of the kindness He showed to Hagar, and I don't recall that it is clear that she was of the elect. He gives great restraint of the heart (as shown by good morals) to many of the non-elect, sometimes even restraining them more than those that are His own (as in the case of Pharaoh when Abram sought to disguise that Sarai was his wife).
Yet I think that it is true that He doesn't love the non-elect in the same way that He loves the elect, therefore I don't think it is a good tactic in witnessing to use the term "God loves you". Rather, I think it would be good to speak of the great love God does demonstrate by sending as a sacrifice His only son to take upon Himself the sin of the world. And if they are the elect, they will recognize this as the greatest demonstration of love that can ever be had.
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dhh712
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I'm not sure about that. I know that that is not all He is, He is also just. I think it is quite clear from the Bible that He didn't choose to save everyone. It seems that sometimes it might be a nice thing to think about: that no one will have to suffer any punishment, that it would somehow be more fair that way; yet, I think that would also point to how our sense of justice has been corrupted, that only God's justice is pure.
I think some Christians tend to go too far in the one direction of God being love; then there are also those who tend to go to far in how God is just. From what I have been given to understand thus far, in the Bible it is clear that God is both of these things, as well as many possessing many other attributes; therefore, it does not present a clear and true picture when it is said that God is love and that is it (though He definitely is that).
One other thing that is clear to me, from what I have learned so far (and this the philosophers and those who like to speculate don't care to consider, I would imagine) is that God will reveal Himself in whatever way He will and in whatever capacity He will choose to an individual; one thing must be clear is that we, with our limited minds, can never (in this life) understand Him completely (the philosophers will call this a convenient excuse for not being able to explain God fully; it may be convenient to some, to others I would think it might not be so convenient. Whatever it is, that is what--from what I can recall--is written in the Bible so therefore it is true).
We must be satisfied with God and our relationship with Him, not what we can understand of Him (or be satisfied, or rather very grateful, for whatever He has given to us to understand of Him. What I mean to say is, that we must not place the understanding of Him in a scholastic capacity over whatever it is He has graciously given to us to in terms of a establishing with us a spiritual relationship). Knowing Him completely comes when we are taken out of this world to no more be troubled by the sin we are still confronted with in this life and which corrupts our ability to perceive Him clearly and fully.
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I completely understand that we are all sinners who deserve hell, and God would be just if He sent us all to hell. But if He decided to save some of these people, why not save all? I understand that God receives glory both from saving wicked people (love) and from punishing wicked people (justice), but then we'd have to assume that He doesn't really love non-elect, that He shows favoritism, even though the Bible explicitly says in Romans 2:11 "For there is no partiality with God".
Also, God commands us to love our enemies so that we may be sons of God (Matthew 5:44-45), which kind of implies that God loves His enemies (the non-elect).
This issue doesn't affect the way I see God, it only affects the way I see the God portrayed by Calvinism (even though quite recently I considered myself a Calvinist
). I pray that God will direct me to the correct system of theology, whichever it may be.
Also, God commands us to love our enemies so that we may be sons of God (Matthew 5:44-45), which kind of implies that God loves His enemies (the non-elect).
This issue doesn't affect the way I see God, it only affects the way I see the God portrayed by Calvinism (even though quite recently I considered myself a Calvinist
). I pray that God will direct me to the correct system of theology, whichever it may be.
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dhh712
Mrs. Calvinist Dark Lord
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I have to understand it as that it is the best way that God can be glorified. It is the best way for God to demonstrate all His attributes in the most glorifying way possible. To ask why He doesn't save all would to me be trying to pry into the ways of God, which are not our ways and which it is not given to us to understand. I can't understand why God doesn't save all and of course I wonder at it (since I would really like all my family and those I love or even just people I meet on the street whom I really don't know to be saved from condemnation. I don't like the thought of anyone not being able to have communion with God forever); yet, I trust that God's plan is the best one, the most perfect one, and that one day I will understand it clearly.
I don't think it's favoritism for I think that would be more like God has picked out favorites based on some aspect of the individual, as in He likes some people based on something in themselves more than others. God's act of saving some people is a demonstration of His mercy. He saves all kinds of people (He is indiscriminate in whom He has chosen), and it is not for us to know why He chose the certain ones He has chosen and why He has passed over the others. I understand how it still can seem like favoritism, nonetheless, I trust that it is not; I also trust that as I gain more and more understanding of the Bible, the matter of God's justice, mercy and love will become more clear to me.
I understand that to mean that He loved us when we were His enemies (so the enemies are not just the non-elect, but every person that was ever or that will ever be on the earth). That is why we are to show love to our enemies, in order to be more Christ-like; for Christ, when we were still His enemies, was sacrificed for us so that we might be reconciled to God.
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twin1954
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Many who are Calvinists will tell you yes that God has a kind of love for all men. They call it common grace. I would differ from them. I am convinced that God has no love for the reprobate but only for the elect. He actually gives them no consideration except as to how they may be used to do His elect good and bring glory to His great name. Esau is the most glaring example. Jacob was the worst of the two but God put His wondrous love on Jacob and gave Esau no consideration.
Why would you have to tell folks God loves them when witnessing? They already deceive themselves into thinking that He does and you only reinforce that thinking when you indiscriminately tell folks that God loves them. They already think that they don't need anything but the love of God on them because if He loves them He will not send them to Hell. They think they are not as bad as others, they all will point to someone worse than themselves, and that they are good in their hearts so that if God loves them He will overlook all the bad things about them and take them to Heaven because they aren't as bad as others. To tell them that God loves them is to take part in the deception of their hearts against the truth.
By all means tell folks God loves sinners. Tell them that God loves His enemies but do not add strength to their wall of deception by telling them that God loves them unless you know that they are a believer. John 3:36 doesn't say that the love of God abides on those who do not believe it says the wrath of God abides on those who do not believe.
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twin1954
Baptist by the Bible
We are never told to call upon folks to have faith in the love of God, which is what telling them that God loves them amounts to, but to believe on Christ and know the love of God which is found only in Him. We cannot call on sinners to hope in the love of God but to find their only hope in the person and work of Christ alone.
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I agree with you. I probably didn't make myself very clear in my first post. When I'm witnessing I don't say to people that God loves them and that's the reason why they need to go to Him. I don't do that. Instead, I use the Law to show them that they're sinners and that they've broken every Law God has ever given and that at this very moment they stay condemned before a righteous and just God, who, if they lay down their weapons and stop fighting against Him and believe in Him and repent of their sins, He is ready to received them. God is described in the parable of the prodigal son, as a Father who runs towards the sinner to receive him, if the sinner comes home.
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So the "world" in John 3:16 and 1 John 2:2 doesn't actually mean "all people", but "some people"?
Here's what Spurgeon had to say about 1 Timothy 2:3-4 ("This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth"):
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twin1954
Baptist by the Bible
I have no problem with that presentation of the Gospel.
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The passage in John 3:16 is made to be a proof-text by putting the emphasis where it doesn't belong. John 3:16 isn't about who God loves as the emphasis but about how much God loves. First understand that then we can understand who our Lord was speaking of when He said world. Now in order to grasp the meaning of what our Lord was saying we must ask who was He talking to? He was talking to a Jew, not only a Jew but a high Jew a Pharisee. Now the Jews took great pride in being the chosen people of God. They wouldn't even recognize a Gentile and would go to great lengths to avoid coming in contact with one. This high Jew lived under that rule all his life and practiced it. What the Lord Jesus was telling this high Jew was not that God loves all men indiscriminatly, that would go against the teaching of the whole Old Testament, but that God doesn't just love Jews. The world was any outside the Jewish nationality. Nicodemus understood that.
1John 2:2 in no way must be understood as meaning all men in the world. To do so is to ignore the teaching of the Scriptures as a whole. Yes Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, that is sinners scattered throughout the whole world. To understand the verse in that sense does no damage to the meaning of the passage nor to the teaching of the Scriptures as a whole.
I know the Spurgeon quote very well. I am free to disagree with him too. I believe that the context gives us the answer to that statement by Paul. He begins by telling us that we are to pray for all men and then qualifies it by showing us what he means. We are to pray for kings and those in authority in order that we may live peacable lives. Then he gives the statement in question and it must be understood to mean all kinds of men not all men without distinction.
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In Mark 10:21 it says that Jesus "loved" the rich young ruler, even though he (most probably) wasn't one of the elect. In Luke 19:41 Jesus was looking towards Jerusalem and he "wept" for those people. I, and many other people (including some Calvinists) take that to mean that Jesus cared about those people, loved those people.
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twin1954
Baptist by the Bible
It is entirely possible that the rich young ruler was Saul who later became the Apostle Paul. But even if it wasn't we are not told whether that young man later became a believer or not. We simply cannot assume that he didn't.
In the Luke passage it in no way implies that the Lord was weeping for everyone in the city. The Lord wept because they didn't have a clue as to who He was and why He came. He explains this in the following verses. But it helps to look at the parallel passages.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Here the Lord clearly tells us that He, looking over Jerusalem, would have gathered the children of the house of Israel as a hen gathers her chicks but that they would not have it. He is speaking to and about the rulers and leaders of the Jews.
So you see it isn't necessary to believe that God loves all men without exception from these verses. But to give you something to consider look at Psalm 5:5;
Psa 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
How can God hate all workers of iniquity and love them at the same time?
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God is love (1 John 4:8)
God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29)
God is spirit (John 4:24)
God is light (1 John 1:5)
There are four sentences in the Bible that say God is ___ (an attribute of His). God is the sum of His attributes. God is both love and a consuming fire, so when we look at the character of God we must not concentrate on a specific attribute of His, but take Him as a whole. Yes, God does hate sinners and His wrath really is upon them, but that's viewing God from a specific angle, which doesn't make the statement false, it only make it incomplete. He is also love, and He demonstrated His love by the fact that when we were still sinners, when we were still under His wrath, when we were still workers of iniquity, He gave His Son for us. (Romans 5:8) That's how I think God can HATE and LOVE sinners.
Here's a great bible study titled "God is love" by Tim Conway, a Calvinist: youtube .com /watch?v=JzWkk28ME0w
God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29)
God is spirit (John 4:24)
God is light (1 John 1:5)
There are four sentences in the Bible that say God is ___ (an attribute of His). God is the sum of His attributes. God is both love and a consuming fire, so when we look at the character of God we must not concentrate on a specific attribute of His, but take Him as a whole. Yes, God does hate sinners and His wrath really is upon them, but that's viewing God from a specific angle, which doesn't make the statement false, it only make it incomplete. He is also love, and He demonstrated His love by the fact that when we were still sinners, when we were still under His wrath, when we were still workers of iniquity, He gave His Son for us. (Romans 5:8) That's how I think God can HATE and LOVE sinners.
Here's a great bible study titled "God is love" by Tim Conway, a Calvinist: youtube .com /watch?v=JzWkk28ME0w
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If this was your stance before you posted the OP why then did you post as though you were asking an honest question seeking to learn the answers? I have already become convinced of my stance so there is no need to try and convince me. Bye.
That was an honest question, please don't make such accusations. The problem is that there are passages in the Scripture that seem to mean that God does indeed love the non-elect, not in the same way He loves His children, but there is still a love in Him for the whole world. Thanks for your posts.
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dhh712
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That was an honest question, please don't make such accusations. The problem is that there are passages in the Scripture that seem to mean that God does indeed love the non-elect, not in the same way He loves His children, but there is still a love in Him for the whole world. Thanks for your posts.
I see what you're saying--that you have the belief that you've stated but that you're still wondering about these other Bible verses that seem to imply something different. I'm still convinced that God has some sort of kind feeling toward non-elect for else it seems to me that He wouldn't give the restrain on their hearts that He does. The greatest evidence (from the Bible as well as what I see in the world) to me is this, that the non-elect often have very good morals (sometimes better than the elect). The only other thing I can think of at the moment is that God does this so that it makes the world a better place to live in for the elect, so that He is doing it for them instead of the non-elect; so that He really wouldn't do that for the non-elect except that they happen to be living in the same world at the same time as the elect (of course as He had ordained it to be). Yet that is just a lot of speculation; I don't know that there is any biblical evidence for that vein of thought.
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Mat 5:43 ff implies that God loves everyone. We are told to love our enemies, because we're doing what God does. Admittedly it doesn't actually say that God loves his enemies. It says that he does good to them, but not actually that he loves them. But the passage makes no sense unless he does good to them because he loves them.
This needn't mean that he loves them in the same way, of course.
It seems to me that we have passages that say God loves everyone. (No, I don't think "all kinds of" can be stuck in front of most uses of "all" in the NT.) But we also have passages talking about him loving his own. The simplest way to deal with this is to say he loves them differently.
If this quote is right Calvin and Calvinism » Blog Archive » John Calvinâs Doctrine of the Grace of God: General and Special, then Calvin took a similar approach to 1 Tim 4:10. He understood it as actually meaning everyone. God is in some sense a savior to all, but not in the same sense is those who believe.
What Calvin does in John 3:16 is fairly subtle. He does not try to understand "God loves the world" as "God loves part of the world." He says "the Heavenly Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish." It's an interesting approach, because saving the race doesn't require saving all members of it.
On the other hand, Calvin does sometimes use "all means all kinds," e.g. in 1 Tim 2:4. He evades the issue in 1 Tim 2:6, but implies that he thinks all means Jews and Gentiles.
Calvin doesn't deal with this in Mat 5:43. He says we should imitate God's kindness, but never explicitly says that God loves his enemies.
But whatever Calvin says, it seems clear that Jesus did have that in mind. I would use Calvin's approach for 1 Tim 4:10, and say that God loves everyone, but especially those who believe.
This needn't mean that he loves them in the same way, of course.
It seems to me that we have passages that say God loves everyone. (No, I don't think "all kinds of" can be stuck in front of most uses of "all" in the NT.) But we also have passages talking about him loving his own. The simplest way to deal with this is to say he loves them differently.
If this quote is right Calvin and Calvinism » Blog Archive » John Calvinâs Doctrine of the Grace of God: General and Special, then Calvin took a similar approach to 1 Tim 4:10. He understood it as actually meaning everyone. God is in some sense a savior to all, but not in the same sense is those who believe.
What Calvin does in John 3:16 is fairly subtle. He does not try to understand "God loves the world" as "God loves part of the world." He says "the Heavenly Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish." It's an interesting approach, because saving the race doesn't require saving all members of it.
On the other hand, Calvin does sometimes use "all means all kinds," e.g. in 1 Tim 2:4. He evades the issue in 1 Tim 2:6, but implies that he thinks all means Jews and Gentiles.
Calvin doesn't deal with this in Mat 5:43. He says we should imitate God's kindness, but never explicitly says that God loves his enemies.
But whatever Calvin says, it seems clear that Jesus did have that in mind. I would use Calvin's approach for 1 Tim 4:10, and say that God loves everyone, but especially those who believe.
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Apologetic_Warrior
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I do not understand why so many interpret Jn 3:16 as they do, it would seem without even considering if their hermenutic of "world" is consistent with verses like 1 Jn 2:15 "Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him."
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