Does God torture people forever? NOPE!

[mmksparbud]

This face......is to let you know that sitting in hell for eternity is the 'bad news gospel' which I was taught and used to believe. The last post's happy face was to confirm the 'good news gospel' I now believe.

Gotcha!!

 

[Der Alte]

The word yom
The Hebrew word for day is yom and this word appears in Scriptures over 1400 times. And without exception this word, when written in the singular sense, means day. And that's it. Never anything else. Eons are indicated with the plural form: days, as in the days of such and such. The most popular counter argument is that the meaning of our word is fiercely restricted to 'day' for about a thousand times in the sequential Scriptures, but in the secluded chapter of Genesis 1 means something completely different! But honestly, if in Genesis 1 our word should have meant 'long time' it would have said 'long time'. There are words available in Hebrew that mean just that. None of which occur in Genesis 1.
The word as used in Genesis 1 means day and day alone. There's no way around it, and every serious theory to make (systematic, not theological) sense out of Genesis 1 should first and foremost address the yom-problem.
The solution lies in the rule we've established four chapters ago:
Hold that thought (11)
In Hebrew Scriptures, and all models derived thereof, entities are reckoned solely after their behavior and not after their appearance. An entity is a behavior, not that which executes the behavior.
To define something, the Hebrew language does not look at outer parameters but always at the action that needs to be named. The time-length of a yom is an outer parameter and not regarded in Hebrew. Since time and space are the four dimensions of space-time, and we measure sizes in the spatial dimensions with a ruler, a clock is a ruler for time. An hour is a 'distance' just like a mile.
A yom is not defined as something that is 24 hours long, but something that executes the action that defines a yom. Strictly spoken, a yom does not even have to have a length, as long as it executes the typical behavior that defines it. Forcing a static 24-hour mold upon the word yom may appear quite pious but flies flat in the face of the Second Commandment.
A yom therefore is a phase of a continuum (whether space-time, complexity or something else) that consists of two periods: a 'dark' part and a 'light' part. During the dark part of a regular day people sleep and are disconnected. During the light part they communicate and work together. Any other manifestation of yom should display the same kind of darkness (elements not connected) and lightness (elements connected).
The yom problem in addressing Genesis 1
Genesis 2:17
but from the tree of discernment of function and dysfunction you will not eat from him, given that in the day you eat from him you will surely die,
bê'yom בְּיוֹם (day)
Genesis 1:5
and Elohiym called out to the light,day, and to the darkness he called out, night, and evening existed and morning existed, day one,
yom
יוֹם (day)
The word for day in each of the creation days in the original Hebrew is written differently than the word day for when God said that Adam and Eve would die if they ate of the tree. Translation is stating that difference, interpretation is saying it means the same thing--which it obviously doesn't-one means an evening morning time period, the other means a period of time which can be days, months, years or longer.
Mechanical Translation
Bottom line---When God told Adam and Eve that they would die on the day they ate of the fruit, what He said was
"In the era that you eat of it, you will die."
Point is, He told them they would die, He did not say, you will live forever in hell being tormented. Are you saying God was less than honest? That He did not tell them the truth? That he lied by saying you will die instead of live in torment for eternity?

This is an example of what I call "Itchy Ear Syndrome" someone searches until they find a "source" that says what they want to hear, then they present that "source" as the end all, be all, authority on the particular topic, while ignoring anything which refutes the "source." All whether or not the writer of the source has any qualifications on the particular topic. I believe that to be true on this particular topic.
I could post the entire definition of the Hebrew word יוֹם/yom from Brown, Driver, Briggs [BDB] Hebrew/Aramaic lexicon, but it is 7 pages long, so impractical. BDB is one of, if not, the most highly respected Hebrew lexicons available. So I will post a small portion of each of the 7 nuances in BDB.

יוֹם S3117 TWOT852 GK34272285 n.m. Gn 1:5 day (NH id.; Aramaic יומָא, ܝܰܘܡܳܐ (yawmo); Ph. ים; 1. day, opp. night, ...
2. Day as division of time: a. working-day ...
3. יוֹם י׳ day of Yahweh, chiefly as time of his coming in judgment, involving often blessedness for righteous...
4. Pl. days of any one: a. = his life, his age ...
5. Days: a. indef.: יָמִים אֲחָדִים some days, a few days
6. יוֹם = time; a. vividly in gen. sense (v. also 5 supr.): time of harvest Pr 25:13; usually יְמֵי Gn 30:14 (J), Jos 3:15 Nu 13:20() (all JE), Ju 15:1 2 S 21:9; proper time for paying wages Dt 24:15
7. Phrases, without prep. and with, are: a. (1) הַיּוֹם=to-day Gn 4:14; 31:43, 48 Ex 13:4 (JE) + often; opp. תְּמוֹל yesterday...​

Note that "era" is not one of the meanings of yom.
And here from another unimpeachable source the Jewish Encyclopedia. Note in this Jewish publication "yom" does not have the meaning "era."

DAY (Hebrew, "yom"):
In the Bible, the season of light (Gen. i. 5), lasting "from dawn [lit. "the rising of the morning"] to the coming forth of the stars" (Neh. iv. 15, 17). The term "day" is used also to denote a period of twenty-four hours (Ex. xxi. 21). In Jewish communal life part of a day is at times reckoned as one day; e.g., the day of the funeral, even when the latter takes place late in the afternoon, is counted as the first of the seven days of mourning; a short time in the morning of the seventh day is counted as the seventh day; circumcision takes place on the eighth day, even though of the first day only a few minutes remained after the birth of the child, these being counted as one day. Again, a man who hears of a vow made by his wife or his daughter, and desires to cancel the vow, must do so on the same day on which he hears of it, as otherwise the protest has no effect; even if the hearing takes place a little time before night, the annulment must be done within that little time. The day is reckoned from evening to evening—i.e., night and day—except in reference to sacrifices, where daytime and the night following constitute one day (Lev. vii. 15; see Calendar). "The day" denotes: (a) Day of the Lord; (b) the Day of Atonement; (c) the treatise of the Mishnah that contains the laws concerning the Day of Atonement (See Yoma and Sabbath).
DAY - JewishEncyclopedia.com​

 

[mmksparbud]

Note that "era" is not one of the meanings of yom.
And here from another unimpeachable source the Jewish Encyclopedia. Note in this Jewish publication "yom" does not have the meaning "era."

LOL!!! How is that any different than what I posted???? And thank you for verifying that!!

"The Hebrew word for day is yom and this word appears in Scriptures over 1400 times. And without exception this word, when written in the singular sense, means day. And that's it. Never anything else"

Genesis 2:17
but from the tree of discernment of function and dysfunction you will not eat from him, given that in the day you eat from him you will surely die,


u'mey'eyts
and~from~TREE
הַדַּעַת ha'da'at
the~DISCERNMENT
טוֹב tov
FUNCTIONAL
וָרָע wa'ra
and~DYSFUNCTIONAL
לֹא lo
NOT
תֹאכַל to'khal
you(ms)~will~EAT (Verb)
מִמֶּנּוּ mi'me'nu
FROM~him
כִּי ki
GIVEN.THAT
בְּיוֹ ם bê'yom
in~DAY
אֲכָלְךָ a'khal'kha
you(ms)~>~EAT (Verb)
מִמֶּנּוּ mi'me'nu
FROM~him
מוֹת mot
>~DIE (Verb)
תָּמוּת ta'mut
you(ms)~will~DIE (Verb)


The word here is not yom-----beyom

Question still is---Why did God tell Adam and Eve that if they ate of the tree they would die----instead of on the day you eat of it you will live forever being tormented in hell???

 

[Der Alte]

. . .
u'mey'eyts
and~from~TREE
הַדַּעַת ha'da'at
the~DISCERNMENT
טוֹב tov
FUNCTIONAL
וָרָע wa'ra
and~DYSFUNCTIONAL
לֹא lo
NOT
תֹאכַל to'khal
you(ms)~will~EAT (Verb)
מִמֶּנּוּ mi'me'nu
FROM~him
כִּי ki
GIVEN.THAT
בְּיוֹ ם bê'yom
in~DAY
אֲכָלְךָ a'khal'kha
you(ms)~>~EAT (Verb)
מִמֶּנּוּ mi'me'nu
FROM~him
מוֹת mot
>~DIE (Verb)
תָּמוּת ta'mut
you(ms)~will~DIE (Verb)
The word here is not yom-----beyom
Question still is---Why did God tell Adam and Eve that if they ate of the tree they would die----instead of on the day you eat of it you will live forever being tormented in hell???

The word is NOT "beyom!" There is no such word in Hebrew. The word is יום/"yom" with the ב/"beth" preposition, which means "in." The phrase "in the day" occurs 147 times in the OT, other than Gen 2:17 the first 5 are Gen 2:4, 3:5, 5:12, 31:40, 35:3. In every case the prepositional phrase is ביום transliterated "beyom." Here are links to Hebrew grammars verifying this.
See p. 10
http://www.tc.umn.edu/~levix004/Students/Preposition Materials CIS New Colored.pdf

hebrew prepositions - Google Search

Inseparable Prepositions

 

[mmksparbud]

The word is NOT "beyom!" There is no such word in Hebrew. The word is יום/"yom" with the ב/"beth" preposition, which means "in." The phrase "in the day" occurs 147 times in the OT, other than Gen 2:17 the first 5 are Gen 2:4, 3:5, 5:12, 31:40, 35:3. In every case the prepositional phrase is ביום transliterated "beyom." Here are links to Hebrew grammars verifying this.
See p. 10
http://www.tc.umn.edu/~levix004/Students/Preposition Materials CIS New Colored.pdf

hebrew prepositions - Google Search

Inseparable Prepositions

OK----Let's say your Hebrew text is more accurate than mine and that it means whatever you want it to mean----now----------
can you please answer the question as to why God told Adam and Eve they would die instead of they would live forever in hell being tortured.

 

[lee-johnson]

God did allow this, an agreement made with opposing sides. I believe balance shall be struck from the second coming of Christ where we are warned, and punished for our sins in life and in the afterlife (but to a lessening extent, until (maybe) there is no hell at all but balance in life itself).

 

[Der Alte]

OK----Let's say your Hebrew text is more accurate than mine and that it means whatever you want it to mean----

Not good enough! You will not find a credible Hebrew grammar which states that "beyom" means anything other than "in the day." There is a reason why I pointed out that God told Adam "in the day you eat of the tree you will die [Heb. dying you will die].

now----------can you please answer the question as to why God told Adam and Eve they would die instead of they would live forever in hell being tortured.

Adam and Eve did not literally die "in the day" they ate of the tree. Can you explain that?
Why did Daniel write "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." "Everlasting contempt" is not the same as "death."
Why did Jesus teach "these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

 

[mmksparbud]

Not good enough! You will not find a credible Hebrew grammar which states that "beyom" means anything other than "in the day." There is a reason why I pointed out that God told Adam "in the day you eat of the tree you will die [Heb. dying you will die].

Adam and Eve did not literally die "in the day" they ate of the tree. Can you explain that?
Why did Daniel write "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." "Everlasting contempt" is not the same as "death."
Why did Jesus teach "these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

I see you are doing everything you can do avoid the question---I don't care about the beyom right now, has nothing to do with the topic. Why did God tell Adam and Eve if they ate of the tree they would die, instead of if they ate of the tree they would go into everlasting torment???

 

[Der Alte]

I see you are doing everything you can do avoid the question---I don't care about the beyom right now, has nothing to do with the topic. Why did God tell Adam and Eve if they ate of the tree they would die, instead of if they ate of the tree they would go into everlasting torment???

You think you have this gotcha question that is going to completely destroy the eternal punishment argument. Unfortunately it is a logical fallacy, argument from silence. An argument which does not prove anything, the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I have the words of Jesus which say, e.g.

• “Then shall he say … Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24​

Note, both Matt 18:6 and 26:24 describe a fate worse than death. I wonder why Jesus said all these things when God did not say anything to Adam and Eve about them.

 

[mmksparbud]

Note, both Matt 18:6 and 26:24 describe a fate worse than death. I wonder why Jesus said all these things when God did not say anything to Adam and Eve about them.

Yah, well, that is what I'm asking, isn't it?

So God lied to Adam and Eve and Satan was right--you shall not die, they just both conveniently left out the part of burning in hell forever?