Does God torture people forever? NOPE!

[Der Alte]

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The first resurrection is the resurrection of the saved, who live with Christ for the 1000 years.
After the 1000 years the wicked are resurrected, judgement is handed out, they are punished in hell according to their works, and die--this is the 2nd death.

I am still not seeing any verse(s) which say the wages of sin is death, followed by resurrection then the second death. What exactly is the second death according to scripture?
The phrase "second death" occurs 4 times all in Rev, 2:11, 20:6, 20:14, 21:8

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

Both Rev 20:14 and 21:8 say that the lake of fire "is the second death." they do not say the second death will occur in the lake of fire.
.....The way these verses are written the terms "lake of fire" and "second death" are interchangeable terms. "The lake of fire is the second death" is equivalent to "The second death is the lake of fire." Am I misinterpreting this verse. No!
.....We know that "the second death" in this verse does not refer to an actual death but being thrown into the lake of fire [LoF] is equated with death. In Rev 19:20 the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are cast into the LoF but they do not die, they are still alive in the LoF 1000 years later when the devil was cast into the LoF with them, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Rev 20:10.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.​

Further scriptural evidence that a "second death" does not occur in the LoF. In Rev 20:14 "death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." Death is the point in time end of life it has no physical properties and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Hell, whether it means the grave or the place of punishment, could be thrown into the LoF. But neither hell nor death have died a first time therefore they cannot die a second time.
.....Also the beast, false prophet and the devil were cast alive into the LoF. There is no record that any of them died a first time therefore they cannot die a second time. Rev 21:4 says there shall be no more death. So there can be no death after this.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.​

But 4 verses later Rev 20:8 says 7 groups of people e.g. the fearful, and unbelieving etc., will be thrown into the LoF, which is the second death

Revelation 21:8 But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death. ​

In what sense can the LoF be the "second death" after scripture says "there shall be no more death?"

​

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[mmksparbud]

Sorry you can not do what the bible says---precept up on precept. The lake of fire is the 2nd death, that is clear, but you do not like that so you again dance around the obvious. Death and hell are cast into the lake of fire--and there will be no more death. There will also be no more pain, no more tears in the remade earth---there will be no one writhing in agony for eternity for all misery is gone. Neither God nor the angels, nor any other creature will spend eternity watching people writhing in agony. God does not turn anyone into heartless, emotionless zombies--there is no more pain and no more tears for there is nothing to make that happen. No mother will have to spend eternity watching her child suffer but be so stone cold dead to emotion that she feels no pain and no tears over it. She will have no tears and no pain because that will not be happening. [staff edited]

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[JellyQuest]

Most Christians teach being tormented in the afterlife. Why do they think a loving God would burn people forever? Is it biblical? Are your friends and family burning in hell today? The TRUTH WILL SURPRISE YOU!!

The Secret History of Hell

the poll needs to have an "other" option ..
the article you have linked to is a twin set of the Jehovah witness cult .

enough said .

 

[mmksparbud]

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The penalty for sin is death. God did not tell Adam and Eve that if they ate of the tree they would get eternal life writhing in hell. He told them they would die. That is the penalty that He saved us from unto eternal life.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[Der Alte]

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The penalty for sin is death. God did not tell Adam and Eve that if they ate of the tree they would get eternal life writhing in hell.

He told them they would die. That is the penalty that He saved us from unto eternal life.

Did Adam and Eve literally die the day they ate of the tree? Is this the only verse in the Bible on this topic?

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

And your point is?

 

[mmksparbud]

Did Adam and Eve literally die the day they ate of the tree? Is this the only verse in the Bible on this topic?

And your point is?

bê'yom בְּיוֹם (day)

yom
יוֹם (day)

The word for day in each of the creation days in the original Hebrew is written differently than the word day for when God said that Adam and Eve would die if they ate of the tree. one means an evening morning time period,(yom) the other means a period of time which can be days, months, years or longer (beyom)
http://www.mechanical,translation.org/mt/translation1.html

God said they would die. Not live forever in torment. If that is what He meant, that is what He would have said. Penalty for sin is death---perish---salvation is eternal life. That is what God said. Man can say whatever they want, I'll take the word of God.

 

[Steve Petersen]

b'yom just means 'in that (the) day.'

 

[mmksparbud]

Not from what I've researched.

 

[Hillsage]

Not from what I've researched.

I think your research is good. The word "day" is defined by 'an associated term'.
And in chapter one the 'associated terms' definition of a chapter 1 creation "day", was "evening and morning" time framed days.

But in the case of Adam/Eve being given the 'death sentence for sin' in chapter 2:17, the 'associated term' concerning the time frame of 'the day' in which they would 'die' is in reference to 'the day' before the creation of 'earth' 'heavens' and 'rain/the flood' in 2:4,5.

GEN 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

In this verse above it speaks of 'in the day' God made "the heavens and the earth". If you go back to chapter one, 'the heavens' were created on 'the day' before 'the earth'.

So the chapter 2 'day' of dying from the curse of sin was going to happen to Adam/Eve, or anyone else, in the time-framed 'day' before the flood which was 1000 years later. All who died in 'the day/age' before the flood, or since, died short of "a 1000 years which is as 'a day' unto the Lord" 2Pe 3:8). Even Methuselah only made it to 900+ before he died.

Therefore 'the day' of the curse of sin/death was like 'the day of the locomotive' by definition. Not really 'a day' at all as we commonly think, but more of 'an age'.

 

[Der Alte]

bê'yom בְּיוֹם (day)
yom יוֹם (day)
The word for day in each of the creation days in the original Hebrew is written differently than the word day for when God said that Adam and Eve would die if they ate of the tree. one means an evening morning time period,(yom) the other means a period of time which can be days, months, years or longer (beyom)
http://www.mechanical,translation.org/mt/translation1.html]

Yes it is written differently. In Gen 2:7 the word וֹם which means "day" has the pronominal prefix בְּ which means "in" thus בְּיוֹם which is translated "in [the] day." Since it refers to a specific day it is definite without the article.

JPS Gen 2:17
(17) but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.'
LXX Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil--of it ye shall not eat, but in whatsoever day ye eat of it, ye shall surely die.
Keil and Delitszch Hebrew Commentary.
Why then did God prohibit man from eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, with the threat that, as soon as he ate thereof, he would surely die? (The inf. abs. before the finite verb intensifies the latter: vid., Ewald, §312a).
NET translators note.
53tn Or “in the very day, as soon as.” If one understands the expression to have this more precise meaning, then the following narrative presents a problem, for the man does not die physically as soon as he eats from the tree. In this case one may argue that spiritual death is in view. If physical death is in view here, there are two options to explain the following narrative: (1) The following phrase “You will surely die” concerns mortality which ultimately results in death (a natural paraphrase would be, “You will become mortal”), or (2) God mercifully gave man a reprieve, allowing him to live longer than he deserved.
54tn Heb “dying you will die.” The imperfect verb form here has the nuance of the specific future because it is introduced with the temporal clause, “when you eat…you will die.” That certainty is underscored with the infinitive absolute, “you will surely die.”

God said they would die. Not live forever in torment. If that is what He meant, that is what He would have said. Penalty for sin is death---perish---salvation is eternal life. That is what God said. Man can say whatever they want, I'll take the word of God.

Or selectively taking the words you want while ignoring the words you don't like.​

 

[DennisTate]

Most Christians teach being tormented in the afterlife. Why do they think a loving God would burn people forever? Is it biblical? Are your friends and family burning in hell today? The TRUTH WILL SURPRISE YOU!!

The Secret History of Hell

I am sure that you believe firmly in the "soul sleep" doctrine.

I also believed in this idea until around 1990 when I began
to research near death experience accounts.

My belief at this time is that these NDE's fit astonishingly well with.....
all relevant scriptures on this and other topics brought up in
the Jewish and Christian scriptures.


Dr. George Ritchie's Near-Death Experience

c. His Experience of the "Receiving Station"

Jesus then takes Ritchie to another realm and is shown a kind of "receiving station" where spirits would arrive in a deep hypnotic sleep because of a particular religious belief they held to be true. Here there were "angels" trying to arouse them and help them realize, "God is truly a God of the living and that they did not have to lie around sleeping until Gabriel or someone came along blowing on a horn." These are the spirits of people who believe they must sleep in their grave until the second coming of Christ (i.e., soul sleep.)

this place is truly hell. Their obsessive thoughts and emotions extended beyond the physical realm and into the spiritual realm where they cannot be satisfied. Yet there was nothing preventing any of the poor spirits in these realms from leaving. There was no condemnation coming from Jesus either - only compassion for these miserable spirits. Ritchie realizes Jesus hadn't abandoned any of them here. Instead they fled from the light to escape from having the darkness of their heart from being revealed.

George Ritchie's Temple of Wisdom and Heavenly City Experience: They then travel to a completely different realm where some kind of enormous university is located. Spirits dressed as monks busily and happily engaged in some form of artistic behavior or research. Anenormous library exists here where all the important books of the universe are assembled. Ritchie asks Jesus if this is heaven. These are the spirits of people who grew beyond selfish desires while on Earth; but, like the spirits in hell, these spirits cannot see Jesus either.

Book of Revelation (see also Revelation 21:10-27.) This is the place where people go who have become like Jesus while on Earth - a place where love is the dominant focus of life. This is heaven he realizes; but he is not allowed to enter it. Instead, Jesus shows him the future of Earth and is told to return to his physical body. At this point, Ritchie is revived from death.

 

[DennisTate]

Thanks for the link! I just went there and the subjects under discussion are indeed fascinating. What was Armstrong's denominational affiliation?

Pastor General Herbert W. Armstrong was raised as a Quaker, if
I remember correctly but as he researched various doctrines in scripture he
took an approach of beginning only with scripture..... as much as he
humanly could do.

He really did begin something fascinating in that he and the group of
pastors and evangelists around him had interesting theories on all
scriptures pretty much from Genesis to Revelation.

Much of his ideas on the hidden meaning in the Jewish High Holy Days
are coming up in both the Messianic Jewish movement as well as in
parts of the Pentecostal movement.

From his vantage point in the afterlife I suspect that Pastor General Herbert Armstrong
and his son Mr. Garner Ted Armstrong, would be fascinated by the teachings of
Rabbi Jonathan Cahn and the group that he is raising up.

 

[mmksparbud]

The word yom
The Hebrew word for day is yom and this word appears in Scriptures over 1400 times. And without exception this word, when written in the singular sense, means day. And that's it. Never anything else. Eons are indicated with the plural form: days, as in the days of such and such. The most popular counter argument is that the meaning of our word is fiercely restricted to 'day' for about a thousand times in the sequential Scriptures, but in the secluded chapter of Genesis 1 means something completely different! But honestly, if in Genesis 1 our word should have meant 'long time' it would have said 'long time'. There are words available in Hebrew that mean just that. None of which occur in Genesis 1.








The word as used in Genesis 1 means day and day alone. There's no way around it, and every serious theory to make (systematic, not theological) sense out of Genesis 1 should first and foremost address the yom-problem.
The solution lies in the rule we've established four chapters ago:
Hold that thought (11)
In Hebrew Scriptures, and all models derived thereof, entities are reckoned solely after their behavior and not after their appearance. An entity is a behavior, not that which executes the behavior.
To define something, the Hebrew language does not look at outer parameters but always at the action that needs to be named. The time-length of a yom is an outer parameter and not regarded in Hebrew. Since time and space are the four dimensions of space-time, and we measure sizes in the spatial dimensions with a ruler, a clock is a ruler for time. An hour is a 'distance' just like a mile.
A yom is not defined as something that is 24 hours long, but something that executes the action that defines a yom. Strictly spoken, a yom does not even have to have a length, as long as it executes the typical behavior that defines it. Forcing a static 24-hour mold upon the word yom may appear quite pious but flies flat in the face of the Second Commandment.
A yom therefore is a phase of a continuum (whether space-time, complexity or something else) that consists of two periods: a 'dark' part and a 'light' part. During the dark part of a regular day people sleep and are disconnected. During the light part they communicate and work together. Any other manifestation of yom should display the same kind of darkness (elements not connected) and lightness (elements connected).
The yom problem in addressing Genesis 1
Genesis 2:17
but from the tree of discernment of function and dysfunction you will not eat from him, given that in the day you eat from him you will surely die,
bê'yom בְּיוֹם (day)
Genesis 1:5
and Elohiym called out to the light,day, and to the darkness he called out, night, and evening existed and morning existed, day one,
yom
יוֹם (day)
The word for day in each of the creation days in the original Hebrew is written differently than the word day for when God said that Adam and Eve would die if they ate of the tree. Translation is stating that difference, interpretation is saying it means the same thing--which it obviously doesn't-one means an evening morning time period, the other means a period of time which can be days, months, years or longer.
Mechanical Translation

Bottom line---When God told Adam and Eve that they would die on the day they ate of the fruit, what He said was
"In the era that you eat of it, you will die."
Point is, He told them they would die, He did not say, you will live forever in hell being tormented. Are you saying God was less than honest? That He did not tell them the truth? That he lied by saying you will die instead of live in torment for eternity?

 

[Hillsage]

PSA 137:7 Remember, O LORD, the children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem;

PRO 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

ECC 7:14 In the day of prosperity be joyful, but in the day of adversity

Ezekiel 22:24 Son of man, say unto her, Thou art the land that is not cleansed, nor rained upon in the day of indignation.

HEB 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of TEMPTATION IN THE WILDERNESS.

Like Genesis 2:17, none of these verses speak of a 24 hour day.

 

[mmksparbud]

PSA 137:7 Remember, O LORD, the children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem;

PRO 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

ECC 7:14 In the day of prosperity be joyful, but in the day of adversity

Ezekiel 22:24 Son of man, say unto her, Thou art the land that is not cleansed, nor rained upon in the day of indignation.

HEB 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of TEMPTATION IN THE WILDERNESS.

Like Genesis 2:17, none of these verses speak of a 24 hour day.

Right--and have nothing to do with Why God did not say that they would be tormented in hell forever, but that they would die.

 

[Hillsage]

Right--and have nothing to do with Why God did not say that they would be tormented in hell forever, but that they would die.

It would have been hard for the Father to say eternal hell was the required price for sin. Because that would mean Jesus would have to sit in hell eternally paying 'that price' for us. And I'm pretty sure Jesus isn't being tormented in eternal hell in my place.

 

[mmksparbud]

It would have been hard for the Father to say eternal hell was the required price for sin. Because that would mean Jesus would have to sit in hell eternally paying 'that price' for us. And I'm pretty sure Jesus isn't being tormented in eternal hell in my place.

Aahh--are you saying that in order to save Jesus from sitting in hell for eternity, that God lied to Adam and Eve? Is the face there to state this is a joke--I hope.

 

[Hillsage]

Aahh--are you saying

You did not 'study' my #91 post????

that in order to save Jesus from sitting in hell for eternity, that God lied to Adam and Eve? Is the face there to state this is a joke--I hope.

This face......is to let you know that sitting in hell for eternity is the 'bad news gospel' which I was taught and used to believe. The last post's happy face was to confirm the 'good news gospel' I now believe.

IOW, Jesus isn't sitting in eternal hell because that never was the price.