Does God torture people forever? NOPE!

[thesunisout]

You made a blanket statement:
"God won't ever forgive sin. God preferred to have His Son go to the cross and be made sin, rather than forgive sin."

You made no qualifier---such as those who are written in the book of life----
God does forgive sin---He has forgiven all sin through the blood of Jesus. Jesus paid the price for all sin, death. We just have to believe in Him and accept it. Those who do not, can not be forgiven, for they have not repented and asked for it, thus their name can not be written in the book of life.

God doesn't forgive sin outside of the substitutionary atonement of Jesus Christ, that is what I meant. Sorry about the confusion.

 

[mmksparbud]

God doesn't forgive sin outside of the substitutionary atonement of Jesus Christ, that is what I meant. Sorry about the confusion.

OK---the question is not one of is there a hell, for there obviously is, the question is it is forever? I've poste all the verses against an eternal burning hell before, along with those that seem to indicate one. It's been done several times. And, as a poster pointed out, there follows a lengthy battle over the meaning of words from both sides. Death and destruction doesn't always mean death and destruction, forever doesn't always mean forever. Whenever there is a seeming conflict of interpretation, then one must take into account, the character of God. And there again, people will have differing opinions on that. And if you try to bring in common sense, then they say you can't do that, either, for we are only human and what makes sense to us, may not be what makes sense to God---never ends.

Verses that imply destruction (Annihilation) 26
Psalm 1:6 “But the way of the ungodly shall perish”
Psalm 37:20 “But the wicked shall perish… they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.”
Psa 92:7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:
Psa 34:21 Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate
Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Psa 92:7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:
Prov. 24:20 “the lamp of the wicked will be snuffed out.”
Isa 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.
Oba 1:15 For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.
Oba 1:16 For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.
Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Matthew 10:28 “Rather, fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”
John 3:16 “…whosoever believeth in him should not perish”
Matthew 7:13: “broad is the road that leads to destruction“
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Philippians 3:19 “whose end is destruction…“
2 Thessalonians 1:9 “who shall be punished with everlasting destruction …”
1 Cor 3:17: “God will destroy that person”
2 Cor 2:15-16: “those that perish“
Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death..“
James 4:12a “There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy.”
2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. (Another translation for this verse reads):
(2 Peter 2:3: “Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.”)
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Isa 1:31 And the strong shall be as tow, and the maker of it as a spark, and they shall both burn together, and none shall quench them.

Verses that imply eternal hell--11
Matthew 25:41 ESV
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Jude 1:7 ESV
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
Revelation 20:10 ESV
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 14:11 ESV
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
Isaiah 66:24 ESV
“And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
Mark 9:43-48 ESV
"And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’
Mark 9:43 ESV
And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.
Daniel 12:2 ESV
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Jude 1:13 ESV
Wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.
Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

 

[thesunisout]

OK---the question is not one of is there a hell, for there obviously is, the question is it is forever? I've poste all the verses against an eternal burning hell before, along with those that seem to indicate one. It's been done several times. And, as a poster pointed out, there follows a lengthy battle over the meaning of words from both sides. Death and destruction doesn't always mean death and destruction, forever doesn't always mean forever. Whenever there is a seeming conflict of interpretation, then one must take into account, the character of God. And there again, people will have differing opinions on that. And if you try to bring in common sense, then they say you can't do that, either, for we are only human and what makes sense to us, may not be what makes sense to God---never ends.

Verses that imply destruction (Annihilation) 26
Psalm 1:6 “But the way of the ungodly shall perish”
Psalm 37:20 “But the wicked shall perish… they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.”
Psa 92:7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:
Psa 34:21 Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate
Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Psa 92:7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:
Prov. 24:20 “the lamp of the wicked will be snuffed out.”
Isa 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.
Oba 1:15 For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.
Oba 1:16 For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.
Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Matthew 10:28 “Rather, fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”
John 3:16 “…whosoever believeth in him should not perish”
Matthew 7:13: “broad is the road that leads to destruction“
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Philippians 3:19 “whose end is destruction…“
2 Thessalonians 1:9 “who shall be punished with everlasting destruction …”
1 Cor 3:17: “God will destroy that person”
2 Cor 2:15-16: “those that perish“
Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death..“
James 4:12a “There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy.”
2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. (Another translation for this verse reads):
(2 Peter 2:3: “Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.”)
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Isa 1:31 And the strong shall be as tow, and the maker of it as a spark, and they shall both burn together, and none shall quench them.

Verses that imply eternal hell--11
Matthew 25:41 ESV
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Jude 1:7 ESV
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
Revelation 20:10 ESV
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 14:11 ESV
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
Isaiah 66:24 ESV
“And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
Mark 9:43-48 ESV
"And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’
Mark 9:43 ESV
And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.
Daniel 12:2 ESV
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Jude 1:13 ESV
Wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.
Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Then you have really direct verses like this:

Revelation 20:10

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

It is inescapable that it is talking about eternal torment in this verse. If it is eternal for the devil and his angels, why not for human beings?

 

[mmksparbud]

Then you have really direct verses like this:

Revelation 20:10

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

It is inescapable that it is talking about eternal torment in this verse. If it is eternal for the devil and his angels, why not for human beings?

I already quoted Rev 20:10.

There, again, comes the argument over the word eternal---
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Sodom and Gomorrha are not still burning, they are however, eternally burned up. There are those that then will say, they could be still burning on some sort of other dimension--which is really stretching it, and, to me, silly.

 

[devin553344]

Revelation 20:15

Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire

Isn't that what it means to be baptized with fire? In Matthew it teaches:
{3:11} I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not
worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Also Jesus the Christ said in Matthew:
{12:40} For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and
three nights in the heart of the earth. {12:41} The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and
shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

It appears that God went into the Lake of Fire himself to un-condemn the generations. That doesn't mean it's forever then? There is a sentenced time for the devil and Satan. How less evil is man.

 

[Greg J.]

@thesunisout has written some good things. People don't like them because they believe their perspective is superior to that of God's. They believe they understand breadth and depth of all morality better than God. They believe they have better judgment than God's and their sense of what is just is better than God's.

It is no surprise that even when God simplifies something for our sake, it is rejected. Their problem will never go away until they accept that God is GOD and they are not. He is omniscient, and they are not. He nature is love, and all of our natures are thoroughly tainted with what is contrary to love.

One of Satan's traps is to look at punishment as God's fault. How absurd. When is punishment for murder the fault of the judge? Isn't punishment actually because someone chose to murder? When did we start having more compassion for the murderer than the victim, and more for the murderer than the judge who is completely innocent of the whole thing? It's time for a lot of people to take stock of their own sin and recognize they themselves are the guilty party, not God.

You don't like the idea of eternal punishment? That's good! Neither does God. In fact, we would have had no way to escape our own murderous hearts, except that God, the Son left perfect beauty, peace, and royal treatment, to come to a fully sin-tainted land 100% filled with predators to die so that they might have the option to escape what they had worked to earn for themselves and their children. Now people complain that they don't like God's offer, so they want to alter the offer more to their liking.

At some point, a person needs to wake up to the fact that all they ever deserved was punishment and there was nothing they could ever do to pay off that crime. People complain they didn't choose to be like that, but all that does is reveal they are hypocrites. They complain and then turn around and choose to commit sins, the consequences of which are what they were complaining about in the first place.

It is God's nature to love and forgive. He cannot deny that nature. The only reason people end up being punished is because they reject God, love, and forgiveness, because they want to be God themselves. Problem is they are not, and acting like they are won't do anything for them after they leave the world that God gave to mankind. If you don't like God's offer, don't die. Problem is that because you have sinned, you have brought death upon yourself, even if God did were not to pass judgment on you (Romans 5:12-14). It's like denying the existence of gravity. It is the way the world works. If you don't want to accept the truth that gravity is real—the wages of sin is irrevocable death—and are not thankful that God's Son died to give you a way to escape, you deserve anything and everything that may happen—which you won't understand, because you refused to believe the truth in the first place.

The OP title is right, but it is because God doesn't need to punish anyone for eternity. It is simply the next phase of the existence (John 3:18) of everyone who wants to rely on his own wisdom and power instead of the real God's.

How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? (Hebrews 10:29, 1984 NIV)

 

[thesunisout]

@thesunisout has written some good things. People don't like them because they believe their perspective is superior to that of God's. They believe they understand breadth and depth of all morality better than God. They believe they have better judgment than God's and their sense of what is just is better than God's.

It is no surprise that even when God simplifies something for our sake, it is rejected. Their problem will never go away until they accept that God is GOD and they are not. He is omniscient, and they are not. He nature is love, and all of our natures are thoroughly tainted with what is contrary to love.

One of Satan's traps is to look at punishment as God's fault. How absurd. When is punishment for murder the fault of the judge? Isn't punishment actually because someone chose to murder? When did we start having more compassion for the murderer than the victim, and more for the murderer than the judge who is completely innocent of the whole thing? It's time for a lot of people to take stock of their own sin and recognize they themselves are the guilty party, not God.

Completely agree with this and the rest of this post. The issue isn't that scripture is hard to understand, in fact it is plain. A major issue in these days is that men reject God and His word. Many know in their hearts that Jesus is Lord, but because they love this world and the praise of men they refuse to believe His words. They want to have their cake and eat it too, so they twist everything to suit their own desires. They want to worship Jesus Christ but deny His holiness so they can live how they please. They want a bloodless cross that doesn't require them to lay down their lives. This is what Jesus said about that:

Luke 9:24

For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it.

I am not condemning everyone who doesn't believe in an eternal hell, I know there are many sincere Christians with doubts about it. I am condemning however the attitude that says we can play around with Gods word and believe what we want to.

 

[mmksparbud]

Completely agree with this and the rest of this post. The issue isn't that scripture is hard to understand, in fact it is plain. A major issue in these days is that men reject God and His word. Many know in their hearts that Jesus is Lord, but because they love this world and the praise of men they refuse to believe His words. They want to have their cake and eat it too, so they twist everything to suit their own desires. They want to worship Jesus Christ but deny His holiness so they can live how they please. They want a bloodless cross that doesn't require them to lay down their lives. This is what Jesus said about that:

Luke 9:24

For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it.

I am not condemning everyone who doesn't believe in an eternal hell, I know there are many sincere Christians with doubts about it. I am condemning however the attitude that says we can play around with Gods word and believe what we want to.

OK---then why do they reject the 26, or more verses about annihilation and prefer to believe in an everlasting burning hell? They play around those verses saying they do not say that when they do. We say that eternal is not always eternal and show you (like Sodom and Gomorrah) and still it is denied and are accused of playing with scriptures.
If scriptures seem to contradict, you must consider the character of God, His love, and His justice. We can not be more just than God. And it is beyond reason that any person be fried for eternity for stealing $5.00.

 

[Der Alte]

OK---then why do they reject the 26, or more verses about annihilation and prefer to believe in an everlasting burning hell? They play

around those verses saying they do not say that when they do. We say that eternal is not always eternal and show you (like Sodom and Gomorrah) and still it is

denied and are accused of playing with scriptures.
If scriptures seem to contradict, you must consider the character of God, His love, and His justice.

We can not be more just than God. And it is beyond reason that any person be fried for eternity for stealing $5.00.

I have explained this several times on this forum for the past decade or so and nobody has ever refuted it. Among the Jews before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of unending fiery punishment and when Jesus taught about "eternal punishment" etc. He tacitly supported that teaching instead of saying as He did at other times "You have heard it said but I say to you..." Read my post in the Hell is a 404 post.
Now for this post. Why do many Christians ignore the 26 +/- verses which allegedly say "annihilation?" I'm glad you asked that question. Let us remember the Bible was originally written in Hebrew and Greek not KJV English.
The Greek word which is translated destroy.destruction in the NT is ἀπόλλυμι/Apollumi. It occurs 90 times in the NT, of this 68 times, 76%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those meanings.
(1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned].
Here is the definition of apollumi from Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich Lexicon of NT Greek, one of if not the most highly accredited lexicons available.

ἀπόλλυμι for its conj. s. Bl-D. §101 ( s.v. o[llumi ); Rob. 317; fut. ajpolevsw Hs 8, 7, 5, Att. ajpolw` 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ); 1 aor. ajpwvlesa ; 1 pf. ajpolwvleka ; fut. mid. ajpolou`mai Lk 13:3 ; 2 aor. ajpwlovmhn ; the 2 pf. ajpovlwla serves as a pf. mid ., ptc. ajpolwlwv" ( Hom. +; inscr. , pap. , LXX , En. , Philo , Joseph. , Test. 12 Patr. ).
1. act .— a. ruin, destroy.
a. of pers. (Sir 10:3 ) Mk 1:24 ; Lk 4:34 . W. ref. to eternal destruction mh; ejkei`non ajpovllue do not bring about his ruin Ro 14:15 . Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4 ; Esth 9:6 v.l .; 1 Macc 2:37 ; Jos. , C. Ap. 1, 122) Hs 9, 26, 7. paidivon Mt 2:13 ; Jesus 12:14 ; 27:20 ; Mk 3:6 ; 11:18 ; Lk 19:47 ; B 12:5; [kill] the wicked tenants kakou;" kakw`" aj. ( s. kakov" 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41 . tou;" gewrgouv" Mk 12:9 ; Lk 20:16 ; t. fonei`" Mt 22:7 ; t. mh; pisteuvsanta" those who did not believe Jd 5 ; pavnta" Lk 17:27 , 29 . W. sw`sai (1ike Charito 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12 ; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death ( Herm. Wr. 4, 7) yuch;n k. sw`ma aj. ejn geevnnh/ Mt 10:28; yuchvn B 20:1; t. yucav" Hs 9, 26,3 (cf.Sir 20:22).
b. w. impers. obj. aj. t. sofivan t. sofw`n destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ). aj. t. diavnoian destroy the understanding Hm 11:1.— g. without obj. J 10:10 .
b. lose ( X. , Pla. +; PPetr. III 51, 5; POxy. 743, 23; PFay. 111, 3 ff ; Sir 6:3 ; 9:6 ; 27:16 et al .; Tob 7:6 BA; 4 Macc 2:14 ) t. misqovn lose the reward Mt 10:42 ; Mk 9:41 ; Hs 5, 6, 7. dracmhvn ( Dio Chrys. 70[20], 25) Lk 15:8 f ; aj. a} hjrgasavmeqa lose what we have worked for 2J 8 . diaqhvkhn B 4:6, 8. th;n zwh;n t. ajnqrwvpwn Hm 2:1; cf. s 8, 6, 6; 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 2 f and 5. th;n ejlpivda m 5, 1, 7.— W . colloqu. flavor i{na pa`n o} devdwkevn moi mhv ajpolevsw ejx aujtou` that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me J 6:39 ( Bl-D. §466, 3; Rob. 437; 753).— aj. th;n yuchvn ( cf. Sir 20:22 ) lose one’s life Mt 10:39 ; 16:25 ; Mk 8:35 ; Lk 9:24 ; 17:33 ; cf. J 12:25 . For this aj. eJautovn lose oneself Lk 9:25 (similar in form is Tyrtaeus Lyr. [VII BC ], fgm. 8 Diehl 2 lines 12 ff : ‘The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’).
2. mid .— a. be destroyed, ruined.
a. of pers. perish, die ( schol. on Nicander , Ther. 188 ajpovllutai oJ ajnhvr =the man dies) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1 f. As a cry of anguish ajpolluvmeqa we are perishing! ( PPetr. II 4, 4 nuni; de; ajpolluvmeqa ) Mt 8:25 ; Mk 4:38 ; Lk 8:24 ( Arrian , Peripl. 3, 3 of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer). ejn macaivrh/ aj. die by the sword Mt 26:52 . limw`/ [die] of hunger (Ezk 34:29 ) Lk 15:17 . th`/ ajntilogiva/ tou` Kovre Jd 11 c (because of 11a and b it should perh. = be corrupted; cf. Polyb. 32, 23, 6). uJpo; tino" ( Hdt. 5. 126; Dio Chrys. 13[7], 12) uJpo; t. o[fewn killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9 ; cf. vs. 1 0. Abs. of a people perish J 11:50 . Of individuals (Lev 23:30 ) Ac 5:37 ; 2 Pt 3:9 ; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20 ).—Esp. of eternal death ( cf. Ps 9:6 f ; 36:20; 67:3 ; 91:10 ; Is 41:11 ) J 3:16 ; 17:12 . ajpolevsqai eij" to;n aijw`na perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 hJmei`" ajpolluvmenoi to;n aijw`na). ajnovmw" aj. Ro 2:12 ; mwrw`" aj. IEph 17:2; ejn kauchvsei because of boasting ITr 4:1; cf. IPol 5:2. Abs. 1 Cor 8:11 ; 15:18 ; 2 Cl 17:1.— oiJ ajpolluvmenoi ( opp. oiJ sw/zovmenoi , like Plut. , Mor. 469 D ) those who are lost 1 Cor 1:18 ; 2 Cor 2:15 ; 4:3 ; 2 Th 2:10 ; 2 Cl 1:4; 2:5. For this to; ajpolwlov" Lk 19:10 (Mt 18:11 —Ezk 34:4 , 16 ). ta; ajpolluvmena 2 Cl 2:7 ( cf. Dit., Syll. 3 417, 9 ta; te ajpolwlovta ejk t. iJerou` ajnevswsan ). b. of things be lost, pass away, be ruined ( Jos. , Bell. 2, 650 of Jerusalem) of bursting wineskins Mk 9:17 ; Mk 2:22 ; Lk 5:37 ; fading beauty Js 1:11 ; transitory beauty of gold 1 Pt 1:7 ; passing splendor Rv 18:14 ( w. ajpov as Jer 10:11 ; Da 7:17 ). Of earthly food J 6:27 ; spoiled honey Hm 5, 1, 5. Of the heavens which, like the earth, will pass away Hb 1:11 (Ps 101:27 ). Of the end of the world Hv 4, 3, 3, Of the way of the godless, which is lost in darkness B 11:7 (Ps 1:6 ).
b. be lost (Antipho 54 Diels, Vorsokrat. ajpolovmenon ajrguvrion ; X. , Symp. 1, 5; 1 Km 9:3 ) ISm 10:1. Of falling hair Lk 21:18 ; Ac 27:34 ; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29 f ; remnants of food J 6:12
Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3.—Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6 ; 15:24 ; Lk 15:4 , 6 ; B 5:12 ( cf. Jer 27:6 ; Ezk 34:4 ; Ps 118:176 ). Of a lost son [who has returned]Lk 15:24 ( Artem. 4, 33 hJ gunhv. . . t. uiJo;n ajpwvlese kai. . . eu|ren aujtovn .—JSchniewind, D. Gleichn. vom verl. Sohn ’40). aj. qew`/ be lost to God Hs 8, 6, 4. M-M. B. 758; 766.
BAG Greek Lexicon online​

 

[Der Alte]

I already quoted Rev 20:10.
There, again, comes the argument over the word eternal---

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example,

suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Sodom and Gomorrha are not still burning, they are however, eternally burned up. There are those that then will say, they could be still burning on

some sort of other dimension--which is really stretching it, and, to me, silly.

Your proof text does not say that Sodom and Gomorrah burned eternally. It says that God's eternal fire gave Sodom and Gomorrah a little "example" of that fire. As for the words eternal/eternity. Are you familiar with the practice of using words figuratively? For example there were literal foxes but Herod was not one of them although Jesus called Him one, figuratively. James and John were not literally "sons of thunder" although Jesus called them that, figuratively.
Nine language sources cited. Fourteen total references! 1. NAS Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries, 2. Thayer’s Lexicon, 3. Vine’s Expository of Biblical Words, 3 references, 4. Louw-Nida Greek English Lexicon of the NT based on Semantic Domains, 2 references, 5. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, 6. Abridged Greek lexicon, Liddell-Scott, 7. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, 3 references, 8. Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker Greek English Lexicon of the NT and other Early Christian Literature, 9. Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the NT.
Aion, Aionios and the lexicons:
166. αιωνιος aionios; from 165; agelong, eternal:— eternal(66), eternity(1), forever(1).

Thomas, Robert L., Th.D., General Editor, New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries,​

166 aionios- αιωνιος
1) without beginning and end, what has always been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

---Thayers​

2. αιωνιος aionios [166] "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in <Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2>; or undefined because endless as in <Rom. 16:26>, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.
"The predominant meaning of αιωνιος , that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in <2 Cor. 4:18>, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., `for a season,' and in <Philem. 15>, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e. g., of God, <Rom. 16:26>; of His power, <1 Tim. 6:16>, and of His glory, <1 Pet. 5:10>; of the Holy Spirit, <Heb. 9:14>; of the redemption effected by Christ, <Heb. 9:12>, and of the consequent salvation of men, <5:9>, as well as of His future rule, <2 Pet. 1:11>, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, <Luke 1:33>; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, <John 3:16>, concerning whom He said, `they shall never perish,' <10:28>, and of the resurrection body, <2 Cor. 5:1>, elsewhere said to be `immortal,' <1 Cor. 15:53>, in which that life will be finally realized, <Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2>.
αιωνιος is also used of the sin that `hath never forgiveness,' <Mark 3:29>, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, <Heb. 6:2>, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, <Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7>, and which is elsewhere said to be `unquenchable,' <Mark 9:43>.
"The use of αιωνιος here shows that the punishment referred to in <2 Thes. 1:9>, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive."

From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp 232, 233. (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words) (Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)​

67.96 αιωνιος aji>vdio", on; aijwvnio", on: pertaining to an unlimited duration of time - ‘eternal.’
aji>vdio"ò h{ te aji>vdio" aujtou` duvnami" kai; qeiovth" ‘his eternal power and divine nature’ Ro 1.20.
aijwvnio"ò blhqh`nai eij" to; pu`r to; aijwvnion ‘be thrown into the eternal fire’ Mt 18.8; tou` aijwnivou qeou` ‘of the eternal God’ Ro 16.26.
The most frequent use of αιωνιος in the NT is with zwhv ‘life,’ for example, i{na pa`" oJ pisteuvwn ejn aujtw/` e[ch/ zwh;n aijwvnion ‘so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life’ Jn 3.15. In combination with zwhv there is evidently not only a temporal element, but also a qualitative distinction. In such contexts, αιωνιος evidently carries certain implications associated with αιωνιος in relationship to divine and supernatural attributes. If one translates ‘eternal life’ as simply ‘never dying,’ there may be serious misunderstandings, since persons may assume that ‘never dying’ refers only to physical existence rather than to ‘spiritual death.’ Accordingly, some translators have rendered ‘eternal life’ as ‘unending real life,’ so as to introduce a qualitative distinction.

Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989.​

αιωνιος aionios. An adjective meaning “eternal,” and found in the LXX in Pss. 24; 77:5; Gen. 21:33, aionios in the NT is used 1. of God (Rom. 16:26), 2. of divine possessions and gifts (2 Cor. 4:18; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 5:10; 1 Tim. 6:16; 2 Th. 2:16, and 3. of the eternal kingdom (2 Pet. 1:11), inheritance (Heb. 9:15), body (2 Cor. 5:1), and even judgment (Heb. 6:2, though cf. Mt. 18:8; 2 Th. 1:9, where the sense is perhaps “unceasing”).

Kittel, Gerhard, and Friedrich, Gerhard, Editors, The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company) 1985.​

αιωνιος aionios ", ov and a, ov, lasting for an age (aion 3), Plat.: ever-lasting, eternal, Id.

Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992.​

166 aionios { ahee-o’-nee-os} αιωνιος from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj
AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2, since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71
GK - 173 { aionios }
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.​

CL The Gk. word αιων aion, which is probably derived from aei, … It thus appeared appropriate to later philosophers to use the word both for the dim and distant past, the beginning of the world, and for the far future, eternity (e.g. Plato, Tim. 37d).
Plato (Timoeus, ed. Steph. 3, 37, or ed. Baiter, Orell. et Winck. 712) says, speaking of the universe: …The nature therefore of the animal (living being) was eternal (aionios, before aidios), and this indeed it was impossible to adapt to what was produced (to genneto, to what had a beginning); he thinks to make a moveable image of eternity (aionos), and in adoring the heavens he makes of the eternity permanent in unity a certain eternal image moving in number, … And after unfolding this, he says (p. 38): "But these forms of time imitating eternity (aiona), and rolling round according to number, have had a beginning (gegonen).... For that pattern exists for all eternity (panta aiona estin on), but on the other hand, that which is perpetual (dia telous) throughout all time has had a beginning, and is, and will be." … Aion is what is properly eternal, in contrast with a divine imitation of it in ages of time, the result of the creative action of God which imitated the uncreate as nearly as He could in created ages.. ]
In Plato the term is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and the earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
* * *

NIDNTT Colin Brown​

Aristotle peri ouranou, 1, 9 (ed. Bekker, 1, 279): "Time," he says, "is the number of movement, but there is no movement without a physical body. But outside heaven it has been shewn that there is not, nor possibly can come into existence, any body. It is evident then that there is neither place, nor void, nor time outside. Wherefore neither in place are things there formed by nature; nor does time cause them to grow old: neither is there any change of anything of those things which are arranged beyond the outermost orbit; but unchangeable, and subject to no influence, having the best and most independent life, they continue for all eternity (aiona). … According to the same word (logon) the completeness of the whole heaven, and the completeness which embraces all time and infinitude is aion, having received this name from existing for ever (apo tou aei einai), immortal (athanatos, undying), and divine." In 10 he goes on to shew that that beginning to be (genesthai) involves the not existing always, which I refer to as shewing what he means by aion. He is proving the unchangeable eternity of the visible universe. That is no business of mine; but it shews what he means by eternity (aion). It cannot be aidion and genesthai at the same time, when, as in Plato, aidios is used as equivalent to aionios[/indent]
Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. Eternity, unchangeable, with no 'was' nor 'will be,' is its proper force, that it can be applied to the whole existence of a thing, so that nothing of its nature was before true or after is true, to telos to periechon. But its meaning is eternity, and eternal. … That is, things that are for a time are put in express contrast with aionia, which are not for a time, be it age or ages, but eternal. Nothing can be more decisive of its positive and specific meaning.
0166 aionios αιωνιος without beginning or end, eternal, everlasting
LEH lxx lexicon
UBS GNT Dict. # 169 (Str#166)
aionios eternal (of quality rather than of time); unending, everlasting, for all time
αιωνιος (iva Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; as v.l. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; Bl-D. §59, 2; Mlt.-H. 157), on eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; inscr., pap., LXX; Ps.-Phoc. 112; Test. 12 Patr.; standing epithet for princely, esp. imperial power: Dit., Or. Index VIII; BGU 176; 303; 309; Sb 7517, 5 [211/2 ad] kuvrio" aij.; al. in pap.; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).
1. without beginning crovnoi" aij. long ages ago Ro 16:25; pro; crovnwn aij. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (on crovno" aij. cf. Dit., Or. 248, 54; 383, 10).
2. without beginning or end; of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c qeo;n t. aijwvnion; Inscr. in the Brit. Mus. 894 aij. k. ajqavnato"; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; Sib. Or., fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. qrovno" aij. 1 Cl 65:2 (cf. 1 Macc 2:57).
3. without end (Diod. S. 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 dovxa aij. everlasting fame; in Diod. S. 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their aij. …keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cf. Job 40:28). …On the other hand of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d qeou` zwh; aij.; Diod. S. 8, 15, 3 life meta; to;n qavnaton lasts eij" a{panta aijw`na; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3; PsSol 3, 12; Philo, …carav IPhld inscr.; doxavzesqai aijwnivw/ e[rgw/ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186-201. M-M.

Bauer, Walter, Gingrich, F. Wilbur, and Danker, Frederick W., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press) 1979.​

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS - AIONIOS -- AN IN DEPTH STUDY
αιωνιος
• Strong's - Greek 165
• NRSV (the uses of the word in various contexts in the NRSV text):
again, age, course, end, eternal, forever, permanent, time, world, worlds
• CGED (A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, by Barclay M. Newman, New York: United Bible Societies, 1993, page 5):
age; world order; eternity (ap aion or pro aion, from the beginning; eis aion, and the strengthened form eis tous aion, ton aion, always, forever);
• The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology [NIDNTT], Volume 3 (edited by Colin Brown, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1978, page 827, 830):
In Plato the term [aion] is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and other earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
The statements of the Johannine [John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John] writings, … reveal a strong inclination to conceive of a timeless, because post-temporal, eternity… As in the OT [Old Testament], these statements reveal the background conviction that God's life never ends, i.e. that everything belonging to him can also never come to an end…
aion - αιων - age, world
A. "for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.
• aionion, aionios – αιωνιον, αιωνιος - eternal
B. "aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7)."
i. Rom. 16:26 - " . . .according to the commandment of the eternal God. . ."
ii. 1 Tim. 6:16 - ". . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
iii. 1 Pet. 5:10 - " . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,"
iv. Mark 3:29 - " . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
v. etc.
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, Available: Logos Library System.
• "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixty–six places in the N.T.
A. Rom. 16:25 - " . . which has been kept secret for long ages past,"
B. Rom 16:26 - ". . . according to the commandment of the eternal God,"
C. 2 Tim. 1:9 - ". . . which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"
D. Titus 1:2 - "the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised" long ages ago"
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, [Online] Available: Logos Library System)
• Eis tous aionios ton aionion – εις τους αιωνας των αιωνιωον - Forever and Ever, Lit. "into the age of the ages"
A. "unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future - ‘always, forever, forever and ever, eternally."
B. Phil. 4:20 - ". . .to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever."
C. Rev. 19:3 - " . . .Her smoke rises up forever and ever."
D. Rev. 20:20 - "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
SOURCE: Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989, Available: Logos Library System. [/indent]
What do Greek dictionaries say about "aionion" | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

 

[mmksparbud]

We've gone over the interpretation of all these words over and over---see --- you guys can say "it doesn't men that" and put up these posts, but when we say it and show it, --then you say we are twisting scriptures!

But here you literally twist the scriptures to say what it does not!
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

The cities destruction is the example---it by NO MEANS WHATSOEVER says that the ETERNAL FIRE is the example!!!
I've never understood the need to have everything twisted to and insist that God will punish forever and have Him and His angels and everyone watching as they burn. What is this thing that drives you all to envision such a God??

Rev_14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

God and the angels will be watching them be tortured for eternity--and please don't give me this baloney about--"well, it is not God that torments these people, it's their own conscience, their own choices that do so!" Poppycock---it is clear they are tormented with fire and brimstone, that the fire and brimstone comes directly from God.
Rev_20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Oh, yes, you don't believe the word devour means that the devouring will end, it just goes on forever. Bottom line, you want to believe that God and His angels will be sitting there for all eternity, watching billions of sinners, being tormented with fire and brimstone----pass the popcorn.
How perverse to picture such A God!

 

[toLiJC]

Most Christians teach being tormented in the afterlife. Why do they think a loving God would burn people forever? Is it biblical? Are your friends and family burning in hell today? The TRUTH WILL SURPRISE YOU!!

The Secret History of Hell

God tortures souls, the true One doesn't torture any of them - i.e. the wicked one tortures them

Blessings

 

[Daniel9v9]

I just watched the opening of the video and there are fundamental problems with his teaching from the outset.

There is no salvation outside God's grace through Christ Jesus. Those who in sin and rebellion reject Jesus will be eternally separated from God - this is the second death.

Our salvation is entirely from God, but our damnation is entirely our own fault. Anyone who claims that anyone are worthy of salvation fails to appreciate the weight of sin. No one is good, no one is worthy, but God alone - who is rich in mercy, by giving us His Son.

Anyone who proclaims that all, including those who willingly reject Christ, will be saved, are preaching a different gospel.

 

[Der Alte]

We've gone over the interpretation of all these words over and over---see --- you guys can say "it doesn't men that" and put up these posts, but when we say it and show it, --then you say we are twisting scriptures!

This is the standard response from the hell, no faction. See the evidence, ignore the evidence, repeat previous arguments. I guess Plato, 428-328 BC and Philo, 25 BC-50 AD, both native Greek speakers, whom I quoted, did not know their own language and someone 2000+ years later knows knows more than they did.

But here you literally twist the scriptures to say what it does not!
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving

themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

The cities destruction is the example---it by no means whatsoever says that the eternal fire is the example!!!

The word "aionios," translated "eternal," is an adjective it modifies one word "fire". The vs. does not say "eternal suffering" or "eternal vengeance." Sorry but that's the way language works.
.....Even if we try to make aionios mean "age long" the destruction of S&G did not last anything like an age. Its destruction was almost immediate.

I've never understood the need to have everything twisted to and insist that God will punish forever and have Him and His angels and everyone watching as

they burn. What is this thing that drives you all to envision such a God??

Rev_14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented

with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
God and the angels will be watching them

be tortured for eternity--and please don't give me this baloney about--"well, it is not God that torments these people, it's their own conscience, their own choices that do so!"

Poppycock---it is clear they are tormented with fire and brimstone, that the fire and brimstone comes directly from God.

What is your point? Do you object to what Rev 14:10 says? So what do you think this vs. means? Do you want to throw this verse out or what?

Rev_20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Oh, yes, you don't believe the word devour means that the devouring will end, it just goes on forever.

Bottom line, you want to believe that God and His angels will be sitting there for all eternity, watching billions of sinners, being tormented with fire and brimstone----pass the popcorn.
How perverse to picture such A God!

This part is so convoluted I'm not sure what you are saying. This vs., Rev 20:9, says nothing about man's eternal fate. Notice the word "earth?" This vs. shows Satan, Gog and Magog attacking the saints throughout the breadth of the earth and God destroying them with fire as He destroyed S&G. On earth this life, Satan, Gog and Magog do not attack the saints in paradise.

 

[JacksBratt]

Most Christians teach being tormented in the afterlife. Why do they think a loving God would burn people forever? Is it biblical? Are your friends and family burning in hell today? The TRUTH WILL SURPRISE YOU!!

The Secret History of Hell

Not this again!!!

 

[mmksparbud]

The word "aionios," translated "eternal," is an adjective it modifies one word "vengeance". The vs. does not say "eternal suffering" or "eternal vengeance." Sorry but that's the way language works.
.....Even if we try to make aionios mean "age long" the destruction of S&G did not last anything like an age. Its destruction was almost immediate

Exactly---

What is your point? Do you object to what Rev 14:10 says? So what do you think this vs. means? Do you want to throw this verse out or what?

I was contradicting what the poster said that God does not torture anyone, and that this torture is coming from ourselves. Which is not at all what the bible says, it obviously says He sends the fire and brimstone which tortures everyone it does not come from ourselves!

This part is so convoluted I'm not sure what you are saying. This vs., Rev 20:9, says nothing about man's eternal fate. Notice the word "earth?" This vs. shows Satan, Gog and Magog attacking the saints throughout the breadth of the earth and God destroying them with fire as He destroyed S&G. On earth this life, Satan, Gog and Magog do not attack the saints in paradise.

who said anything about attacking the saints in paradise? Where does it say the attacks are throughout the breadth of the earth?
Perhaps you need to read this again. The convolution is yours.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This clearly states that all are gathered together and come against the city in one concerted effort. And the devil, the beast and the false prophet are the ones that it says are tormented forever.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm