"Does God really want us to become vegan?"

[seeking.IAM]

Veagan and Vegetarian arguments amuse me. I'm always curious about what adamant Veagans and Vegetarians think will happen to the cows, hogs, sheep, and chickens they think they'll "save" if the world turns to a total plant based diet? Will they have better lives laying around the barn yard, lazily chewing their cuds in the shade? Do they think farmers are going to keep cows as pets? Maybe a nice sheep kept in the back yard to graze so we don't have to mow? Or will they be roaming our streets like in some 3rd world country? No, they will gradually move toward extinction as a species on the planet because we have no use for them save for the few in zoos where we can go see them in their cages.

If one wants to eat a plant-based diet exclusively, good on 'em. But let's not dress it up as God's will.

 

[Deade]

But it's not only original intent. God's plan is to restore the peace and harmony that existed in the beginning, to return to that Edenic type of world, where "the wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them." That is part of God's eternal plan.

So you've got the beginning AND the end. Everything in between is a result of sin.

While it is true that God give us a picture with tamed predators eating plant based proteins (we now have that capability) how can we be sure of God's intents. You claim you have it all figured out, I don't think you do.

Even Adventist acknowledge that God set up the clean and unclean ordinances before the Mosaic law. We see it was already defined, like the Sabbath, at creation but wasn't addressed until Noah took in the animals for the ark. Like another said here, I don't buy in to pre-fallen man as being something different than the rest of us. And carnivores were always such. BTW, the Passover lamb had to be eaten by all Jews.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

And I'll repeat, I disagree. My body has told me loud and clear - and against my wishes - that I need animal nutrition. And I'm far from alone in that.

Against your wishes? Then explore your issue at nutritionfacts.org.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Nor dress up meat eating as God's will. I have seen plenty of that, as if the only reason God created them was for our exploitation.

 

[grasping the after wind]

No, that's taking what I said a little too literally. When I say "original intent" I am simply saying that it was not God's original intent for us to eat animals. Peace and harmony among humans and animals, nonviolence, those things are what I mean by God's original intent. I'm not saying that we should eat only fruit and nuts, obviously God created vegetables and many other healthy, natural plantbased foods which are good for us to eat, and cruelty-free.

God created animals which are very healthy, natural foods , good for us to eat, . It was not God's intent to eat vegetables or Adam and Eve would have eaten then but no, they only ate fruit and nuts. They did no killing of animals or plants. Killing a plant is no more or less cruel a fate for the plant than killing an animal is for the animal.

 

[Cis.jd]

Please have a look at this

Does God really want us to become vegan?

and tell me what you think

Based on my own interpretation (which I'm not going to debate as theologically correct), i think he does. I don't know, when I read in the OT on him talking about meat eating and seeing how strict it was, it just seemed like he didn't like it but made it permissible due to natural survival.

He appeared to have so much care about them because they are his creation.

I don't think it is a must to be vegan, but I do wish the Church made it doctrine for Christians to practice kosher. I don't understand how this never passed on from Judaism. In the NT we can read that all meats where given a go, but there is still nothing about how they are to be butchered so one has to assume those OT laws from God needs to remain. Especially with how the US and other countries butchers the meat (watch farm to fridge), there is no way God would be ok with that.

 

[grasping the after wind]

He does not command us to be vegans, although I am. And that by personal choice only.

More power to you. You get to choose what you want to be. I am pro choice.

 

[lilymc]

And I'll repeat, I disagree. My body has told me loud and clear - and against my wishes - that I need animal nutrition. And I'm far from alone in that.

It's not animal products, it's nutrients that your body needs, and those nutrients (like protein, vitamins, calcium, etc) exist in plantbased foods. As a matter of fact, where do you think the cow you ate got his protein from? Not from eating flesh. Going plantbased is cutting out the middle man. There is no need to get your nutrients from a decaying corpse of an exploited, terrorized animal.

Again, there is no nutritional need to eat flesh or any animal products. The reason why so many people believe it's necessary is because for many years, the food industries have continually pushed that lie, in order to maintain the status quo and keep making money.

The science says otherwise, and has for a long time. Please read these statements:

Position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics

It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes. Plant-based diets are more environmentally sustainable than diets rich in animal products because they use fewer natural resources and are associated with much less environmental damage.Vegetarians and vegans are at reduced risk of certain health conditions, including ischemic heart disease, type 2 diabetes, hypertension, certain types of cancer, and obesity.

https://jandonline.org/article/S2212...192-3/fulltext


The Mayo Clinic

A well-planned vegetarian diet (see context) can meet the needs of people of all ages, including children, teenagers, and pregnant or breast-feeding women. The key is to be aware of your nutritional needs so that you plan a diet that meets them.


Harvard Medical School

Traditionally, research into vegetarianism focused mainly on potential nutritional deficiencies, but in recent years, the pendulum has swung the other way, and studies are confirming the health benefits of meat-free eating. Nowadays, plant-based eating is recognized as not only nutritionally sufficient but also as a way to reduce the risk for many chronic illnesses.


Dietitians of Canada

A healthy vegan diet can meet all your nutrient needs at any stage of life including when you are pregnant, breastfeeding or for older adults.


British Dietetic Association

Well planned vegetarian diets (see context) can be nutritious and healthy. They are associated with lower risks of heart disease, high blood pressure, Type 2 diabetes, obesity, certain cancers and lower cholesterol levels. This could be because such diets are lower in saturated fat, contain fewer calories and more fiber and phytonutrients/phytochemicals (these can have protective properties) than non-vegetarian diets. (...) Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of life and have many benefits.


The British National Health Service

With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs.


The Dietitians Association of Australia

Vegan diets differ to other vegetarian diets in that no animal products are consumed or used. Despite these restrictions, with good planning it is still possible to obtain all the nutrients required for good health on a vegan diet.​

 

[Deade]

It's not animal products, it's nutrients that your body needs, and those nutrients (like protein, vitamins, calcium, etc) exist in plantbased foods. As a matter of fact, where do you think the cow you ate got his protein from? Not from eating flesh. Going plantbased is cutting out the middle man. There is no need to get your nutrients from a decaying corpse of an exploited, terrorized animal.

Again, there is no nutritional need to eat flesh or any animal products. The reason why so many people believe it's necessary is because for many years, the food industries have continually pushed that lie, in order to maintain the status quo and keep making money.

The science says otherwise, and has for a long time. Please read these statements:

Position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics

It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes. Plant-based diets are more environmentally sustainable than diets rich in animal products because they use fewer natural resources and are associated with much less environmental damage.Vegetarians and vegans are at reduced risk of certain health conditions, including ischemic heart disease, type 2 diabetes, hypertension, certain types of cancer, and obesity.

https://jandonline.org/article/S2212...192-3/fulltext


The Mayo Clinic

A well-planned vegetarian diet (see context) can meet the needs of people of all ages, including children, teenagers, and pregnant or breast-feeding women. The key is to be aware of your nutritional needs so that you plan a diet that meets them.


Harvard Medical School

Traditionally, research into vegetarianism focused mainly on potential nutritional deficiencies, but in recent years, the pendulum has swung the other way, and studies are confirming the health benefits of meat-free eating. Nowadays, plant-based eating is recognized as not only nutritionally sufficient but also as a way to reduce the risk for many chronic illnesses.


Dietitians of Canada

A healthy vegan diet can meet all your nutrient needs at any stage of life including when you are pregnant, breastfeeding or for older adults.


British Dietetic Association

Well planned vegetarian diets (see context) can be nutritious and healthy. They are associated with lower risks of heart disease, high blood pressure, Type 2 diabetes, obesity, certain cancers and lower cholesterol levels. This could be because such diets are lower in saturated fat, contain fewer calories and more fiber and phytonutrients/phytochemicals (these can have protective properties) than non-vegetarian diets. (...) Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of life and have many benefits.


The British National Health Service

With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs.


The Dietitians Association of Australia

Vegan diets differ to other vegetarian diets in that no animal products are consumed or used. Despite these restrictions, with good planning it is still possible to obtain all the nutrients required for good health on a vegan diet.​

You are beating people over their heads about things you value. We can dig up enough evidence for anything in this day and age. You want to be a vegan or vegetarian, feel free and do that. You are not likely to change another with your hard line tactics. The rest of us are going to do do our own things, with moderation of course.

 

[lilymc]

Veagan and Vegetarian arguments amuse me. I'm always curious about what adamant Veagans and Vegetarians think will happen to the cows, hogs, sheep, and chickens they think they'll "save" if the world turns to a total plant based diet? Will they have better lives laying around the barn yard, lazily chewing their cuds in the shade? Do they think farmers are going to keep cows as pets? Maybe a nice sheep kept in the back yard to graze so we don't have to mow? Or will they be roaming our streets like in some 3rd world country? No, they will gradually move toward extinction as a species on the planet because we have no use for them save for the few in zoos where we can go see them in their cages.

If one wants to eat a plant-based diet exclusively, good on 'em. But let's not dress it up as God's will.

It almost sounds like you believe that certain animals only have value insofar as they can be used for our own purposes. That is not only unbiblical but very anthropocentric. To answer your question, OF COURSE they would better lives if they aren't being enslaved, terrorized, mutilated, and then brutally killed, living a short life of misery and fear.

Have you never heard of animal sanctuaries? There are many, all over the country. In fact, there seem to be more as time goes on. Also, interestingly, a number of farmers worldwide have had a change of heart and converted their farm into animal sanctuaries.

I'm going to link to a beautiful, excellent documentary on that very topic. I highly recommend you all watch this, it is well-worth the time: Peaceable Kingdom: The Journey Home

Also, what you implied (that certain animals are worthless if they are not food) and your statement that not eating animals shouldn't be dressed up as God's will goes directly against how it was in the pre-fall world, God's ideal, when there peace and harmony among humans and animals, no flesh eating....AND your statement goes against how it will be again one day, when Jesus restores the peaceful Edenic world we had in the beginning.


Isaiah 11:6-9

The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling together;
and a little child will lead them.

The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.

They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea.

 

[JenniferLW]

I couldn't agree more. The way most animals are treated for food is sinful and horrific and most people choose to not look at it. I hope things will change.

We are charged to look after animals and use them properly. Mankind has done a terrible job of that but I see that as being a different topic to the one of should we eat meat.
I believe God gave us meat at that point because he knew we would need it. We are not living in that pre-flood greenhouse world with the water vapour canopy and long life span but a world where we suffer more extream temperatures and space radiation. I've known people who don't like meat to have needed some when they got ill and were recovering and needed more strength. Without meat it is difficult for many people, pregnant women especially to get enough iron. I don't believe it was given due to sin, but physical need.

Needless cruelty should never be a part of obtaining meat. This is where the sin comes in, because man is greedy and stuffs as many chickens or pigs or cattle into a small area to make money. This is why we avoid things like battery eggs.
I don't believe God is against humane keeping and killing of animals.

 

[chilehed]

Please have a look at this

Does God really want us to become vegan?

and tell me what you think

I think it's a load of nonsense. I don't think God really cares whether you're vegan or not, any more than he cares if you have vanilla or chocolate.

 

[In_God_I_Trust]

The Lord has said we may eat whatever we want to so long as these requirements are met.

All Foods are Lawful to eat:
1. All meats are clean(Matt 15:11,17; 1 Cor 10:23,30; Colossians 2:16; Romans 14:2,3,5,6,14,17,20; 1 Tim 4:34,5; Mark 7:15,18-19; 1 Cor 6:12, 13)

2. All food is made clean only by thanksgiving and prayer(1 Tim 4:3,4,5; Romans 14:2,3,5,6,14,17,20; 1 Cor 10:30).Ephesians 5:20 give thanks for all things in the Name of the Lord.

3. The kingdom of God is not what we eat(Romans 14:14,17,18,20)

4. All meats are clean so none can judge us in what we eat(Colossians 2:16; Romans 14:3,4,10,13)

5. What we eat is not a sin if we are strong in the faith and believe that any food is okay to eat and not a sin(1 Tim 4:3; Romans 14:5,14,20; 1 Cor 10:23)


When/How a Food Becomes unlawful to eat

1. If we eat and it become evil spoken of, it is a sin(1 Cor 10:30;Romans 14:16)

2. If we eat and it brings our brother to stumble or bring him to offence, it is a sin(1 Corinthians 10:25,27,28,29,32; Romans 14:13,20,21,24)

3. If we do not believe and we eat, then it is a sin(Romans 14:15,19,20,21,23)

4. We are to Abstain from eating meat with blood still in it(Acts 15:19-20,27-29; Acts 21:25)

5 . We are to Abstain from eating meat that has been strangled(Acts 15:19-20,27-29; Acts 21:25)


Now just because we can eat all things does not mean that it is good for us to do so(1 Cor 6:12-13), there is wisdom in the neglecting of the body and choosing only to eat those things that are good for us(Colossians 2:23). We also should do that which brings edification to all(1 Cor 10:33) and those things that make for peace(1 Cor 10:33; 1 Cor 8:13; Romans 14:19,21).

Peace

What do you think about this:
“If any man of the house of Israel slaughters a bull or a young ram or a goat in the camp or if he slaughters it outside the camp, instead of bringing it to the entrance of the tent of meeting to present it as offering to Jehovah before the tabernacle of Jehovah, bloodguilt will be counted to that man. He has shed blood, and that man must be cut off from among his people.” (Leviticus 17:3-4)

That was the law about our ancient's livestock before Jesus' death.

And this:
"Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill. Truly I say to you that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one stroke of a letter to pass away from the Law until all things take place. Whoever, therefore, breaks one of these least commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the relation to the Kingdom of heavens. But whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in relation to the Kingdom of heavens. For I say to you that if your righteousness does not surpass that of the scribes and the Pharisees, you will by no means enter into the Kingdom of the heavens" (Matthew 5:17-20)

The post Does God really want us to become vegan? does inspire me about the mission of our livestock and the ending of their mission as well.

And this is the law about wild animals:
“If one of the Israelites or some foreigner who is residing in your midst is hunting and catches a wild animal or a bird that maybe eaten, he must pour its blood out and cover it with dust.” (Leviticus 17:13)

Although there are laws that classifies between clean and unclean animals (Leviticus 11:1-47), they intend to teach people about what kinds of animals they may eat and what kinds they may not; but these would not reject laws about livestock and laws about wild animals.

And we have this:
"But whatever is left of the flesh of the sacrifice on the third day is to be burned with fire. However, if any of the flesh of his communion sacrifice is eaten on the third day, the one presenting it will not be accepted with approval. It will not be credit to him; it is an offensive thing, and the person who eats some of it will answer for his error" (Leviticus 7:16-18)

Because now we are allowed to eat Jesus' meat and blood, and there is no justification for us to kill livestock any more, one is still allowed to kill wild animals caught or hunt alive, "pour its blood out and cover it with dust", and consume them within 2 days after slaughtering.

Any other missionary materials must comply with original Jehovah's and Jesus' words.

 

[Strong in Him]

You seem to be grabbing on to that and using that as your overarching argument against veganism, but that is either unwise or disingenuous, because even you admitted that was not God's choice, and you are ignoring SO much of the bigger picture.

You are ignoring God's original intent and God's ultimate plan which is to return to what He originally intended, you are ignoring the countless calls for us to choose mercy, kindness, peace, you are ignoring the fact that in that very story, a plantbased food (manna) was God's first choice, the quail was not, it was the grumbling, hard-hearted Israelites' choice.

Sorry, but you are ignoring the fact that I posted those Scriptures in response to the OP and the title of this thread.
I was not attacking veganism or promoting meat eating. I was not even answering you at that point. We were asked the question and what we thought of a certain article. I said:

The author of the article selects only certain Scriptures to try to prove their point.

After the flood, God gave us all living things as food, Genesis 9:3.
The Israelites were commanded to eat the Passover every year to remember the exodus from Egypt; this included eating lamb, Exodus 12:8.
The Israelites were given quail to eat in the wilderness, Exodus 16:8.
God told the Israelites which meat they could eat, Leviticus 11:2-3.
Jesus doubtless ate meat when he celebrated the Passover, and he also ate fish, Luke 24:42-43.
It seems the author is not aware of/deliberately ignores these facts.

That was my answer to the thread; that there are Scriptures showing that the Lord allowed, and told, people to eat meat.
The only reason I referred to you at all is that you rated my post as funny. I did not understand why, so I asked.

This seems to have turned into an attack that I am against veganism. I'm not - though I wouldn't become one. I was simply listing some Scriptures, for another forummer, that show the eating of meat and that it was not disallowed by God.

 

[dqhall]

Sorry, but you are ignoring the fact that I posted those Scriptures in response to the OP and the title of this thread.
I was not attacking veganism or promoting meat eating. I was not even answering you at that point. We were asked the question and what we thought of a certain article. I said:


That was my answer to the thread; that there are Scriptures showing that the Lord allowed, and told, people to eat meat.
The only reason I referred to you at all is that you rated my post as funny. I did not understand why, so I asked.

This seems to have turned into an attack that I am against veganism. I'm not - though I wouldn't become one. I was simply listing some Scriptures, for another forummer, that show the eating of meat and that it was not disallowed by God.

God’s word is given day and night. It did not begin with Genesis and end with Revelation. Correction is good for the mind and body. God is truth.

The World Health Organization warned processed meat is a Group 1 carcinogen like tobacco and arsenic. Red meat is a Group 2 carcinogen. Studies showed eating poultry increased the risk of certain types of cancer. Eating a diet high in saturated fat and cholesterol increased risk of cardiovascular disease. One should not be too proud of a diet high in meat. Whole grains, vegetables and fruits are life giving foods.

After much study I ate a primarily plant based diet with 1.5 servings of fish per week and rarely meat at social occasions.

 

[Strong in Him]

God’s word is given day and night. It did not begin with Genesis and end with Revelation. Correction is good for the mind and body. God is truth.

What's any of that got to do with my reply to Lilymc?

The World Health Organization warned processed meat is a Group 1 carcinogen like tobacco and arsenic. Red meat is a Group 2 carcinogen. Studies showed eating poultry increased the risk of certain types of cancer. Eating a diet high in saturated fat and cholesterol increased risk of cardiovascular disease. One should not be too proud of a diet high in meat. Whole grains, vegetables and fruits are life giving foods.

Again, what's that got to do with my reply and the OP?

After much study I ate a primarily plant based diet with 1.5 servings of fish per week and rarely meat at social occasions.

Good for you - our own personal preferences is not the question, though.

 

[prodromos]

A Vegan, a Cross Fit Trainer, and an Atheist walked into a bar. The only reason we know is because they told everyone in the first two minutes.

 

[FredVB]

What basis do Christian believers have for the hostility to vegan people? There is none. With that there is poor testimony. The witness of Christ should be present, rather than driving any away. Vegans should be Christian too, and the gospel certainly does not exclude them. Many early believers avoided having meat altogether. And they were essential among the early Christian church.

 

[seeking.IAM]

...Have you never heard of animal sanctuaries? There are many, all over the country. In fact, there seem to be more as time goes on. Also, interestingly, a number of farmers worldwide have had a change of heart and converted their farm into animal sanctuaries....

I suspect you have never lived on a farm. Animals are expensive to raise and maintain. Animal feed. Vet bills. Pay the sheep shearer. And they are a lot of work. Farmers simply aren't going to keep animals for the greater good of the world or because they're cute.

 

[JacksBratt]

I think that, before the fall, Adam and Eve were vegan or vegetarian... The plant life was lush and they could obtain all the nutrients that they needed from plants... That is if they even needed to eat... no scripture to back that up but... just say'n, in paradise we won't have to eat.

After the flood, God told Noah to eat meat. I believe that his was due to changes on the earth, it's geography and meteorology, that left it less than optimum for plants to grow as well and large as before the flood.

Even today, with present farming and food production, sources I have read state that a salad that you eat today is much less nutritious than one from 50 years ago. This would make it far more difficult to get proper nutrition from eating plants only.

If a person wants to become a vegetarian.. or.. vegan... I think that that is their prerogative. I know some and they seem to feel more healthy when they do..

That's fine... but, if I respect your choice to be vegan or vegetarian... then please respect mine to base all the meals that I prepare, around the meat that I cook.

I don't think it is the choice to be vegan that is abrasive... I think it is the few vegan's that are almost dogmatic and religious about it and seem to condemn omnivores like myself and look down their noses at us.

So, if they have the right to make vegetables into some sort of product that looks, tastes and has the same texture as a meatball or hamburger.... then I want a to form some meat into something that looks, tastes and has the same texture as a salad.

That kinda puts the logic of this idea of vegemeat into prospective... eh?