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Does God only impute righteousness to us, or does He also impart it?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by justbyfaith, Feb 5, 2018.

  1. Arsenios

    Arsenios Russian Orthodox Winter Baptism, Valaam Monastery, Supporter

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    Here are your words:
    This corruptible must put on incorruptible.
    So which is it - We always have fallen, corruptible flesh in this life... We bring it under subjection to the Spirit... We mortify our members, yes? Do we wait, or do we put on incorruption?

    If we are putting on incorruption by ongoing repentance, then we are NOT waiting for it... We are putting it on... And in this, we HAVE it in an earnest... And await the Age to Come, in which we will fully have it...

    Then you must change your no to yes!

    The mere SHADOW of Peter's body healed the sick... So we DO have the redemption of the body in an earnest, as Paul affirms...

    True words - Do you not distinguish "Now in an earnest" from "fully in the Age to come"??

    I am not - You are talking to me, I hope??

    I have heard a lot of things too...

    Arsenios
     
  2. Arsenios

    Arsenios Russian Orthodox Winter Baptism, Valaam Monastery, Supporter

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    How did Christ's rebuking of the Jews work out for Jerusalem?

    Arsenios
     
  3. Arsenios

    Arsenios Russian Orthodox Winter Baptism, Valaam Monastery, Supporter

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    Hey, we live in a free country...
    You can be a finger-pointer all you want to...
    Rev. 3:19 says God rebukes, not you...
    God chastens, not you...
    YOU are therefore to be zealous and repent...
    So be zealous and repent...
    And let God rebuke and chasten...
    Or you can be a finger-pointer...
    Do you really even like accusing others?
    It just seems so self aggrandizing to me...

    Do you really mean to say that finger-pointing is what Servants of the Lord are Biblically commanded to be doing???

    Arsenios
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  4. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    He did and I agree with him - as does the Westminster Confession of Faith - widely recognized as the most authoritative summary statement, outside of the various related scriptures themselves, as to what Reformed Christians believe and teach.

    Chapter V
    Of Providence
    V. The most wise, righteous, and gracious God does oftentimes leave, for a season, His own children to manifold temptations, and the corruption of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins, or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled; and, to raise them to a more close and constant dependence for their support upon Himself, and to make them more watchful against all future occasions of sin, and for sundry other just and holy ends.
    VII. As the providence of God does, in general, reach to all creatures; so, after a most special manner, it takes care of His Church, and disposes all things to the good thereof.

    Chapter XIII
    Of Sanctification
    I. They, who are once effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart, and a new spirit created in them, are further sanctified, really and personally, through the virtue of Christ's death and resurrection, by His Word and Spirit dwelling in them: the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed, and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified; and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces, to the practice of true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.

    II. This sanctification is throughout, in the whole man; yet imperfect in this life, there abiding still some remnants of corruption in every part; whence arises a continual and irreconcilable war, the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh.

    III. In which war, although the remaining corruption, for a time, may much prevail; yet, through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part does overcome; and so, the saints grow in grace, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
     
  5. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    I agree as well.

    Just how far that fall can be for a believer who is sealed with the Spirit of God is something they debate in the "off topic"concerning the truth of the eternal security of believers.
    What I do with Hebrews is three fold.

    First - I recognize that it is letter to, just as it says, Hebrews.

    Second - I note everything in the passage and not just what I want to see. For instance I note the last sentence in the passage you quoted where God tells the readers (you and I in this case) that there are better things in store for us than those warned about in the passage in general - because of the salvation we have entered into.

    Third - I bring other passages to bear on any portion of scripture which troubles me and systematically correlate it with the overall picture of salvation by grace. I do so knowing full well that the scriptures cannot contradict themselves when properly understood.

    In this case, when all is said and done, I see that this is a passage which speaks of those Hebrews who will not enter the rest provided by the finished and ongoing intercessory work of Jesus Christ our high priest and the promised Messiah of the Hebrews.

    They are told clearly that there will not be another method of salvation now that Christ has been crucified. They are told that when they reject the rest He provides they are in effect crucifying Him themselves just as did the leaders of the Hebrews.

    The Holy Spirit testified to the Hebrews as to the Lod being the promised method of salvation for them by many works He did - including His resurrection from the dead.

    In any case - as I said - I notice that the severe warning in the passage is something God has no doubt (He is emphatic about being convinced) does not apply to the believing readers who have so entered the rest of God. (that includes you and I and the others reading along here in this thread, I would hope and pray - although I don't know for sure.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  6. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the Love Arsenios and back to you.
    Daniel
     
  7. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    I John 4

    11 Dear friends, if this is how God loved us, then we should love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God, but if we love one another, God lives in union with us, and his love is made perfect in us.

    13 We are sure that we live in union with God and that he lives in union with us, because he has given us his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and tell others that the Father sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 If we declare that Jesus is the Son of God, we live in union with God and God lives in union with us. 16 And we ourselves know and believe the love which God has for us.

    God is love, and those who live in love live in union with God and God lives in union with them. 17 Love is made perfect in us in order that we may have courage on the Judgment Day; and we will have it because our life in this world is the same as Christ's. 18 There is no fear in love; perfect love drives out all fear. So then, love has not been made perfect in anyone who is afraid, because fear has to do with punishment.

    19 We love because God first loved us. 20 If we say we love God, but hate others, we are liars. For we cannot love God, whom we have not seen, if we do not love others, whom we have seen. 21 The command that Christ has given us is this: whoever loves God must love others also.

    See I Cor 13

    Gal 5

    13 As for you, my friends, you were called to be free. But do not let this freedom become an excuse for letting your physical desires control you. Instead, let love make you serve one another. 14 For the whole Law is summed up in one commandment: “Love your neighbor as you love yourself.” 15 But if you act like wild animals, hurting and harming each other, then watch out, or you will completely destroy one another.

    The Spirit and Human Nature

    16 What I say is this: let the Spirit direct your lives, and you will not satisfy the desires of the human nature. 17 For what our human nature wants is opposed to what the Spirit wants, and what the Spirit wants is opposed to what our human nature wants. These two are enemies, and this means that you cannot do what you want to do. 18 If the Spirit leads you, then you are not subject to the Law.

    19 What human nature does is quite plain. It shows itself in immoral, filthy, and indecent actions; 20 in worship of idols and witchcraft. People become enemies and they fight; they become jealous, angry, and ambitious. They separate into parties and groups; 21 they are envious, get drunk, have orgies, and do other things like these. I warn you now as I have before: those who do these things will not possess the Kingdom of God.

    22 But the Spirit produces love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 humility, and self-control. There is no law against such things as these. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have put to death their human nature with all its passions and desires. 25 The Spirit has given us life; he must also control our lives. 26 We must not be proud or irritate one another or be jealous of one another.

    Short answer, serve each other in Love = No Law.
     
  8. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    Sorry my friend but you are so far from the truth in this matter. You may have been influenced by the spirit of this age that hates any correction rebuke or reproof.

    The world hates the light and when anyone shines the light they want to silence them.

    What unbeliever who is reproved of his sin doesn’t know the verses,”judge not”

    Ministers in scripture are commanded to reprove, rebuke and exhort, with long suffering and doctrine.

    Paul also said ,

    1 Corinthians 5 - 3. For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,”

    2 Corinthians 12 - 21. And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.”


    And even though God rebukes and reproved if sin he also sends his ministers to do so as could easily be shown in all scripture.

    2 Timothy 4 - 2. Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4. And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”

    We see this verse

    John 16 - 8. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:”

    Here we see how Paul, was led by the Spirit to warn of sin righteousness and judgement to come as a good minister

    Acts 24 - 25. And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.”

    And we read,

    1 Timothy 4 - 1. Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;... 6. If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.”

    And we read,

    1 Corinthians 14 - 24. But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: 25. And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.”

    There are so many scriptures I cannot post them all or I might fill hundreds of pages

    Reconsider your understanding
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  9. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    I only need this one command from scripture to correct you here,

    1 Timothy 5 - 20. Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

    But I will add another one also

    Titus 1 - 13. This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

    We live in a somewhat free country if you choose to deny God’s commands that’s your right but that will not be good for you or others in the long run.
     
  10. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    I cor 15

    40 There are also celestial bodies and bodies terrestrial; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

    41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth from another star in glory.

    42 So also is the resurrection of the dead: It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption.

    43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.

    44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

    45 And so it is written: “The first man Adam was made a living soul.” The last Adam was made a quickening Spirit.

    46 However that which is spiritual was not first, but that which is natural, and afterward that which is spiritual.

    47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second Man is the Lord from Heaven.

    48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy; and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

    49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

    50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

    51 Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep; but we shall all be changed

    52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

    54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality,
    then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

    55 “O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

    56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

    57 But thanks be to God, who giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!

    58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, for ye know that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.
     
  11. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    1 John 2:17, And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

    1 John 2:6, He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

    1 John 3:6, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

    So there is a for ever sense in which if I do the will of God I will abide in Jesus; and this means I will sin not and also walk even as He walked.
     
  12. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    Here are some more thoughts for you my friend

    THE LOVE THAT REBUKES....

    I have come to see over many years that true love and ministry is seldom understood even by many christians.

    What do I mean by this?

    Well, here is an example. In a christian gathering, lets say a home meeting, where all can share and body ministry is flowing through Christ Headship, a person in the meeting, perhaps a believer of a long standing, sins, or is in sin and another brother rebukes him and warns of such sin. This is a sober moment and grave (Titus 2:2 KJV)and the one rebuking has a serious face and his eyes are very stern and serious (Acts 13:9, Mark 3:5 KJV.)

    It seems that many, I mean many in that assembly would say immediately, that this brother who is rebuking the other of sin is "unloving", "to hard" and "harsh", "not right in any way" and that that is not the way to "ever" speak to another brother in an assembly, or to even imply doing such a thing. They would instead say that they should be "loving", and they act as if that word "loving" only means to have a soft spoken smile and soft gentle words, and fair speeches. They act as if the words we speak should be like honey and never ever rebuke another person like that.

    They would possibly see Jesus whipping men out of the Temple and tipping over tables and boldly rebuking others as a shock and startled at Jesus. They may have said to him if he did such a thing today, "hey Jesus thats not the way to win friends and influence people". What would Jesus have said to them?.

    Or if they watched as John was baptizing people and the crowds came and the pharisees were come also and John immediately said to them, You brood of vipers, who warned you to fleee from the wrath of God?". They would be troubled greatly by such talk and see John as not in the love and right spirit. But Jesus called him the greatest prophet.

    But today often, if a person rebukes the another in sin before all in the church, the entire assembly would cringes at the rebuke and look down upon the man doing so.They day that we should never do so or finger point and only God can do that.

    I believe that the response many would have to the rebuke of sin in the meetings is wrong. I also believe that such a rebuke can be in the love of God and gracious and the right way tho act at times. Yes, I will say that this is not always done continuously and there are various ways to deal with sin in the gatherings and with unruly and other issues and some can rebuke and not be in the spirit. And we need to not judge by outward appearance etc. But, to assume that a person who does such a thing is wrong right from the start is false.

    I speak of these things because I have seen a unbalance in this area.

    Lets look at a few scriptures and consider.

    1 Timothy 5:20
    "Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear."

    When this kind of rebuke is done others will fear. I asked All who consider this, if a person rebukes someone in the meetings should there ever be a sense of fear among those who listen on in the meetings?
    Some today may seem more concerned with everyone liking them and pleasing men then really helping them even if they are misunderstood and not liked for a time. Paul says if we should seek to please men we should not be the servants of Christ" and he warns of men pleasers (Galatians 1:10 KJV). Some even thought Paul was their enemy for telling them the truth (Galatians 4:16 KJV)

    We also see in scripture that rebuke, reproof, warning and correction is needed and publicly at times for all to fear and take heed. Paul did this at times and he wasn't afraid to speak faithfully and honestly to the church when needed. yes he wanted to come without having to do this, but in love he still did.We see this in a few examples

    Galatians 2:14
    "But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

    Paul was not even afraid to rebuke the godly man Peter and he did so "before them all". This was a very loving and commendable thing to do. Yet some today would be very troubled at this kind of action. But Paul was right to do so and loving in his action.

    We also see Paul saying this to a church

    2 Corinthians 11:12-14 KJV)
    "Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth. 12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."


    Notice that they thought Paul did not love them when he did this. But he did and his actions were very loving. When we see our brothers and sister being led astray by false ministers and other sinful things among the saints we must speak up. In the OT God set watchmen on the walls and if they saw and enemy coming and did not warn the people then the peoples blood would be on the watchman hands.

    Paul said similar to this

    Acts 20:26-31 KJV
    "Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. 28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears."


    But this love will often be misunderstood and sometime the believers will even love the one speaking this way less as Paul said

    2 Corinthians 12:15
    "And I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved."



    Jesus himself tells us of real love and speaks a certain bold way and says

    Revelation 3:17,19 KJV
    "Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:...19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."


    Here we see that true love rebukes and chastens. This is what Jesus says to them because it seems they did not understand this kind of love.

    The word "rebuke" here means - Greek -to confute, convict, tell a fault etc.

    and the word "Chasten" here means -Greek - to train, discipline (by punishment)

    and we read of How God shows his love to us as well, in fact to all of us and it is written,

    Hebrews 12:6-11 KJV
    "For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby."


    Paul also speaks to some to "rebuke them sharply". These men were among others in home meetings and speaking all sorts of error and commandments of men, Jewish fables, and the law talk etc.

    Titua 1:10-14 KJV
    "10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. 12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. 13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth."


    Notice that their mouths had to be stopped. This is done by sound doctrine and in the power of the Spirit to be able to exhort and convince the gainsayers. But at times they need sharp rebuke also . The words "rebuke them sharply", means to convict or tell their fault "abruptly as if to "cut" them off in the middle of their talk. We read, "their mouths must be stopped. But I can tell you from seeing this and how many receive such sharp rebuke the ones watching on will fight against it and immediately say it is unloving, no matter what love you had in your heart of what scriptures you show.

    There is also another kind of love that we are warned of in scripture. This is the "harlots love" and by implication the harlot church that is everywhere. We read of such a love here

    Proverbs 5:3,12-14, Prov. 7:13-17 KJV)
    "For the lips of a strange woman drop as an honeycomb, and her mouth is smoother than oil:...And say, How have I hated instruction, and my heart despised reproof; 13 And have not obeyed the voice of my teachers, nor inclined mine ear to them that instructed me! 14 I was almost in all evil in the midst of the congregation and assembly.... 13 So she caught him, and kissed him, and with an impudent face said unto him, 14 I have peace offerings with me; this day have I payed my vows. 15 Therefore came I forth to meet thee, diligently to seek thy face, and I have found thee. 16 I have decked my bed with coverings of tapestry, with carved works, with fine linen of Egypt. 17 I have perfumed my bed with myrrh, aloes, and cinnamon. 18 Come, let us take our fill of love until the morning: let us solace ourselves with loves."


    Paul also touches on this prettiness kind of talk and false words and says

    Romans 16:18
    "For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple."

    True love will sometimes reprove and rebuke and warn and even sharply rebuke others. And we cannot know the hearts of all that do so. But if Gods love moves you to stand firm and true and to every have to reprove or rebuke or sharply rebuke or warn others, this is part of how love acts at times. Consider just a few more verses

    2 Timothy 4:2
    "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine."

    Proverbs 9:8
    "Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee."

    Proverbs 6:23
    For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way oflife:"

    Proverbs 27:5
    Open rebuke is better than secret love."

    Proverbs 9:8
    Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

    Ecclesiastes 7:5
    "It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise, than for a man to hear the song of fools.


    Amos 5:10
    "They hate him that rebuketh in the gate, and they abhor himthat speaketh uprightly."

    1 Timothy 1:3
    "As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

    1 Thessalonians 5:14
    "Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men."

    2 Corinthians 13:2,10KJV
    "2 I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare:...10 Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the power which the Lord hath given me to edification, and not to destruction."


    2 Corinthians 12:21
    "And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed."

    1 Corinthians 5:1-6,
    "It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?... do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person."


    Notice, here that they thought they were so loving and gracious and kind by doing nothing. Yet there was a man among them that was having sexual relations with his fathers wife and this was known about. They are called puffed up. Some are like this today they seem to bend over backwards to say they love the rebellious sinners who come among them and yet they do not want them to be convicted and terrified and tremble at God's word. But God looks to those who tremble at His word.

    Isaiah 66:2
    "but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word."
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  13. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    And yet it is not what Isay that is your trouble but what we see clearly in scripture. many today would reject men of God who spoke and acted this way. I truly believe that If jesus, Paul, or any prophet of the bible was to come to many assemblies today they would be standing outside knocking and possibly cast out of the church where the people doing so think they do God a service.

    But we read,

    1 Kings 13:1-4 KJV
    "And, behold, there came
    a man of God out of Judah by the word of the Lord unto Bethel: and Jeroboam stood by the altar to burn incense. 2 And he cried against the altar in the word of the Lord, and said, O altar, altar, thus saith the Lord; Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name; and upon thee shall he offer the priests of the high places that burn incense upon thee, and men's bones shall be burnt upon thee. 3 And he gave a sign the same day, saying, This is the sign which the Lord hath spoken; Behold, the altar shall be rent, and the ashes that are upon it shall be poured out. 4 And it came to pass, when king Jeroboam heard the saying of the man of God, which had cried against the altar in Bethel, that he put forth his hand from the altar, saying, Lay hold on him. And his hand, which he put forth against him, dried up, so that he could not pull it in again to him."


    "Jonah 1:2
    Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and
    cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me."

    Isaiah 1:10-17 KJV
    "10 Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
    11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. 12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? 13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. 14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them. 15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood. 16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; 17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow."(spoken by the man of God, the prophet, as God spoke through him)


    etc etc etc

     
  14. Arsenios

    Arsenios Russian Orthodox Winter Baptism, Valaam Monastery, Supporter

    +982
    Eastern Orthodox
    Private
    US-Constitution
    Hey, we live in a free country...
    You can be a finger-pointer all you want to...
    Rev. 3:19 says God rebukes, not you...
    God chastens, not you...
    YOU are therefore to be zealous and repent...
    So be zealous and repent...
    And let God rebuke and chasten...
    Or you can be a finger-pointer...

    My reply to you in your love of rebuking and chastening others...
    With respect to these two passages...
    Which both say it is Jesus Who rebukes and chastens...
    Is...
    YOU are NOT Jesus...

    You cannot correct Scripture with Scripture...

    This instruction was to an Episkopos being ordained by Paul - A Bishop in the Church - That is how Christ rebukes and chastens, through His Servants in the Ekklesia who "have the Rule over you"...

    Does anyone who is a Bishop "have the Rule over you" to whom you must obey? This is an instruction directed to someone within the Church being ordained into the Episcopacy to administer the Church - It is not an instruction for everyone to run around finger-pointing at each other and rebuking each other by proving themselves right according to their understanding of the Bible...

    Sigh...

    Another Clerical Elevation... See above...

    Self-righteous finger-pointers are how the west is being lost...
    The leaven of the Pharisee is poison...

    We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one...
    Please feel free to point your finger at me and rebuke me as often as you feel it to be appropriate and needful...
    At least you care enough to point and accuse, and for that I thank God...

    Arsenios
     
  15. royal priest

    royal priest debtor to grace

    +2,589
    United States
    Protestant
    Married

    Why a command?


    Why not?


    On the contrary. Love fulfills the law.
    Romans 13:8, "love is the fulfilling of the law."
     
  16. listed

    listed are you?

    +1,543
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Don't get ya here.
    No I don't refer to Mary as blessed. I simply say Mary.
    No because inheritance comes thru the male. Jesus didn't inherit sin or the sin nature. Jesus did take our sin upon Himself. Lots of difference there.
     
  17. listed

    listed are you?

    +1,543
    Non-Denom
    Private
    No it's covenant made with Israel applied to the Christian that I preach against. That's the same law Paul taught against.
     
  18. listed

    listed are you?

    +1,543
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Sorry about you. I'm not ruled by the body of flesh or carnal things. I'm ruled by the Holy Spirit. Yes from time to time I consent to the flesh and sin. It's war just like Paul said in Romans 7.
     
  19. Tolworth John

    Tolworth John Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,232
    United Kingdom
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I agree .
     
  20. Tolworth John

    Tolworth John Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,232
    United Kingdom
    Non-Denom
    Married
    You are saying that we are sinners and we commit sins and need to repent of them. Yes

    Or are you saying we do not sin.
     
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